ST The relationship between Finn and Rose????!

Spoiler: previous discourse

In an article written before the film's release (I think it was either in Vanity Fair or Entertainment Weekly), Rian mentioned that one of it's subplots had origionally contained a romance, but he'd removed this because it didn't feel right. I wondered at the time if he was talking about Finn and Rose. Since she kisses him at the end of the Crait battle, I'm now pretty sure he was.

 

It could be them or Rey and Kylo. Both would seem wrong in TLJ if they had gone full bloom like Han and Leia or Anakin and Padme.

 

Well, the First Order arose from the dark side. While we have seen First Order members who seem to be decent people at the core (Finn, obviously; Captain Cardinal from the Phasma novel, "Pilot" from the Captain Phasma comic), the organization itself is chronically corrupt and guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, for lack of a better word. I'm just not seeing an outcome where this would work.

Also, I'm highly skeptical that Rey and Kylo are in a love story, at least not a requited one. If nothing else, you'd think that TLJ would've made that clear if it was the case. In any event, whatever kind of connection Kylo and Rey made in TLJ, I think it was nuked when he revealed that he was still serving the dark side and the door was literally shut on this continuing at the very end. However, that's why I really want to be able to read the novelization, so we can get more light on this plot and have a better understanding of things.

 

It would work if Hux is no longer around. He was more suited to lead than Kylo was, and Kylo does not want to destroy planets (shown in TFA). He wants order among the chaos. Having Han's heart, he could do good if Snoke's crushing hold on his mind is ever rid for good.

It's a romantic drama and was confirmed to be romantic tension with them, and dramas don't resolve without problems that keep it from happening at first. I think Finn and Rose fall into that too. That final scene, her sacrifice, her words and her kiss and Finn's confusion and feelings for her are all left on hold because we don't know if she'll live (well we do know she will and she's in Finn's TFA role right now).

Finn has been running since TFA, and though he returned to save Rey, he still wanted to run. Rose showed him another way and helped lead him to a new path, a new place and a new family. I think going into IX, they will become truly bonded in a romantic sense after Finn gets himself together. As John said, he is not yet for a relationship. He'd mess it up. Same for Rey and Ben.

 

TFA never said anything about what Kylo thought about destroying planets. The TFA novelization did add lines where Hux wondered if destroying the entire D’Quar system to wipe out the Resistance was a waste of good real estate (and was completely mum on Kylo’s perspective).


Also, based on Kylo’s personality and decisions over the course of both TFA and TLJ, I don’t think he’s inherited his father’s moral compass or needs Snoke egging him on to continue his descent into the dark side.

Where was that? Did Rian Johnson go on record somewhere? All I can say is that if that was the intent, it passed me by, at least on Rey’s end of things.

I can see the point with Finn and Rose. I honestly don’t see Rey and Kylo winding up together at all, given everything that has transpired.

 

I love this video! I loved the idea of transference where Rose is grieving over his sister's death and through the course of experiencing her hero's journey alongside Finn, those emotions get compartmentalized with Finn. The kiss is one of the twists that surprised me, but it has a lot of depth once one acknowledges it isn't supposed to be romantic and is part of a greater story.

 

This is a good read from another on this topic:

Rose and Finn’s trip to Canto Bight is a failure from a mission standpoint: they don’t get the master codebreaker, but a thief who sells them out at the first sign of trouble. But while they’re there, they succeed at something we’ve not seen anyone else do: they seed a new place, a place full of wealth and privilege, with devotion to the Resistance. And they do it with kindness and hope.

There’s hope in Rose’s face when she reaches out to that stable boy, Resistance ring in hand. And there’s a huge reason it’s Rose who does this: she understands. She tells Finn what the First Order did to her mining-colony home, stripping it of resources and then testing it with weapons built with the planet’s own materials. She doesn’t have to say it outright, but it’s clear this is at least part of what led her to the Resistance: mistreatment by those in power.

So when, on a planet of wealthy pleasure-seekers, she sees a small, dirty-faced boy, she recognizes what it means to be that kid. Showing him the ring is a risk, but she knows he probably doesn’t have any loyalty to his masters (and not just because she saw said masters being cruel to both fathiers and children). She’s acting out of self-preservation, but also out of kindness. Even in a state of panic and danger, there’s no yelling, no shouting, no bossing. When she tells the boy they need his help, it’s a request, not a demand.

And that help makes adifference—for Rose and Finn, and for the fathiers. If it doesn’t solve everything—if Rose and Finn still need a lift offplanet; if the fathiers get rounded up again a few hours later—that’s also the point. Not everyone can fix the galaxy single-handed. Really, no one can. The little jobs are vital, too. Imperfect work is still work. And failure, like Yoda says, is a great teacher. Having tried, having made that choice, still matters.

What about Finn, though? At first I thought it weird that his role in this sequence was so small, but then I realized: he’s barely socialized. He’s barely out of Stormtrooper armor. He’s spent his whole life being ordered around by the First Order and its obsession with power through cruelty. It’s hugely valuable for him to be the observer, to see how people—both fancy and downtrodden—live in the galaxy, to see what conflict and class divisions have wrought, and to see exactly what it is the Resistance has to contend with.

Other arguments have been made for Canto Bight’s inclusion. David Sims at The Atlantic looks at the way the sequence illustrates the broader oppression in the galaxy—it sets up Rose’s last line, when she tells Finn they need to save what they love, not fight what they hate. The line is a little clunky, but if youconsider it in the context of Canto Bight, it makes more sense: fight for the downtrodden stable kids, not againstthe bad guys.

Joanna Robinson’s great take at Vanity Fair focuses on the powerful representation of having two of the film’s characters of color go on a meaningful adventure of their own—and how this is a corner of the galaxy we haven’t seen before. “Neither rebels nor imperialists, the Canto Bight residents lend shades of gray to the universe in a way that’s explored in every corner of The Last Jedi,” Robinson writes.

In an interview with Syfy Wire, Star Wars concept designer Neal Scanlon said Canto Bight is his favorite creation of the new movie:

I think that’s Canto Bight, for two reasons, really. One is because there was no absolutes. And secondly, it’s really significant thing to The Last Jedi, that there’s a point in the film—and I think you’ll probably know what I mean when you see it—that we wave goodbye, a little, to the established past, and start to take those first independent steps. You know, the genre has got to turn, stand on its own two feet.

The genre has to stand on its own two feet—and so does the galaxy. The importance of Canto Bight isn’t fully clear until the very last scene of The Last Jedi, in which we return to that stable, and to the children who live there. Word of Luke’s actions in the climactic scenes has clearly spread: the kids have a little handmade Luke Skywalker figure, posed in front of their versions of walkers. The story being told is exciting—and, we know, not enough to change the world on its own. You need more than an exciting narrative; you need people, on the ground, doing the work. You need real examples of change created by ordinary people; you need change to look like something possible, not just for a select few. If the mythology of the Jedi was enough to motivate the galaxy to action, it wouldn’t be in the position it’s in.

But it’s a good story, and one many of us have told and retold, sitting on the ground, playing with Star Wars figurines, imagining ourselves princesses and warriors, generals and queens.

How many of us grew up to be those things?

What you can grow up to be, if not a crazy old wizard or a wise general, is a person who joins the fight. Who puts in the work, who runs the errands, who takes a moment to do something kind, even if it doesn’t necessarily matter to your mission. (Rose taking the saddle off the last fathier makes me tear up, every time.) The Last Jedi dismantles the idea that heroism is the only thing that changes the world, and leaves us with a little kid with hope in his heart—hope that was put there by two people who weren’t trying to be heroes, but were just doing their jobs.

 

Was that the case? From a visual storytelling perspective, kissing someone on the lips is usually interpreted as communicating love story, as opposed to kissing someone on the cheek, which covers a wider range of kinds of affection (all from a story-telling perspective of course).

 

I thought that maybe part of the reason it's so important to Rose to save Finn is because the person she wishes she could save is her sister. Although I can't see it for most of the movie, she would be hurting all movie, and hurting bad. So latching onto someone is completely a way to cope.

I also thought she had a bit of a crush on Finn, but I don't know how serious of a crush. Some crushes are fleeting and do represent other things.

 

Finn and Rose didn't have any of the genre beats for a romance (compare to, for example, a romantic comedy). It's similar to the beats for a hero's journey or a murder mystery with a detective. It's one reason why people criticize the kiss as forced or came out of nowhere for a lot of people. It broke brains a bit because it went against the genre. Besides, a kiss does not necessarily mean it is a love story -- Luke and Leia kissed on the lips several times, for instance. Finn and Rose's story line explores themes of romantic love, but that isn't the same thing as a romance.

Compare to Anakin/Padme, it's badly written yes, but no one was shocked it happened or felt like it came out of nowhere because it fit the genre and its beats. It doesn't matter that we know they'd end up together because the beats are same for Padme/Anakin as for a Harlequin romance where you're only reading the book to see two people fall in love.

For Finn and Rose, I don't think we were supposed to see them as a romance but a coming of age story for both of them, where Rose got to save Finn like she wished someone did for Paige and also push herself to take more chances carpe diem style, and Finn got to experience someone pushing him and challenging him in healthy ways (as opposed to the FO) and also express interest for him. If Finn is going to get together with anyone in this trilogy, the story needed to address whether Finn had ever kissed someone, for example, since the FO was so restrictive.

 

That could be. On the other hand, guy and gal getting involved in dangerous adventure stuff and then getting together at the end is a pretty common action/adventure-type story cliche and often happens with very little buildup. (I suspect one reason this is standard is to give the story in question a "human interest" and relatable element. Whether it works is a case-by-case basis question.)

Didn't they do it only once in ESB? Leia kissed Luke on the cheek "for luck" and a reassurance in ANH, which was the only times that the Powers That Be would've been considering a love story, since the sibling idea wasn't invented yet. On top of that, the only time it happened in ESB was Leia trying to make Han jealous and/or make a point to him. The context of the scenes is part of how we interpret what's going on. I guess to me, Rose invoking both the "L" word and kissing on the mouth created a context that said it was meant to be a romantic gesture.

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Could you explain?

I don't read Harlequin, so I couldn't say what they're about. Honestly, my main problem with Anakin and Padme's story was that it suffered from the double whammy of the actors not having good performances (and so not selling it through their acting) and the writing (I did not really understand how the relationship worked, why they wanted one in the first place, etc.). I've found that I can overlook the second problem if the acting sells it, but the prequels didn't have that.

That's a fair point, however, my initial comment was directed at why Rose kissed Finn in the first place. I thought that the post in question was suggesting that it wasn't meant to be a romantic gesture, while I don't think that that's the case, due to various reasons, one of them being that kissing on the mouth tends to be reserved for lovers in movies. (The fact that a deleted scene showed Rose being jealous of how close Finn was to Rey is also something I was taking into account.)

We'll have to wait and see what Episode 9 does about all that.

 

Forces of Destiny short

 

The romantic element to their relationship was dumb and shoehorned.

I liked the basic idea of how they started to know each other though. She admires him as this tsory being passed around but then meets him and realizes "Oh, he's a selfish piece of crap".

 

@ForcePushUp
I feel like i already saw that kind of dynamic, but i wonder where ...

 

In the middle of reading the novelization. It sure is tipping its hand in regards to the idea that Rose may have been falling for Finn.

 

I think in the novelization she IS falling for him. Though how he feels about her is entirely unclear.

 

Conceded.

 

There was this moment I loved when Rose is thinking again about what Paige would be thinking now, and what she would say about Finn while on the way to the Supremacy. Paige would say he has a good heart and so Rose agrees that yes he does have a good heart. I think this is when she started allowing her irritation to stop blocking her crush? I feel like this dynamic was maybe trying to parallel Han and Leia since Leia was really irritated with Han at first and then thawed towards him.

It's like she's asking her sister's opinion because of her feelings.

I think that maybe they tried to play this in the movie but ended up lessening it considerably, but left the kiss in?

 

It is obvious by now that Rey will be a spinster for all time, due to, you know, being the NEW LEADER OF THE NEW JEDI ORDER, and stuff...

 

Maybe. (It is interesting that the novelization commented that Snoke influenced Luke to rebuild the Jedi Order as a stepping stone in luring Kylo Ren to the dark side. It remains to be seen if JJ Abrams does anything with this idea in Episode 9, but it does raise the question if having a formal Jedi Order is not the way the future should go. If that's the case, it remains to be seen how the Force traditions are passed down and what the future of the Jedi will look like.)

 

No it was Rose imagining what Paige would say were she there with Finn and Rose. It was written from the perspective that Paige never met Finn.

It's about Rose and her relation to Paige (and to Finn), not about Finn and his relation to Paige.