The Religious Left, Dean & the DNC, and our Republic.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Eschatos, Feb 13, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Oh I'm not. I just feel misrepresented by his interpretation of what I've said. I'm merely correcting that.
  2. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Well, your edit cleared that up anyway..

    I just wanted to fit as much train references as I could into a single post.
  3. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    I apologize, Fire; I missed the subtle nuance between saying Republicans support fascism and saying that we behave like fascists.

    Neither assertion is true: regardless of whether the assertion is nothing more than an opinion, it too needs to be corrected.

    Republicans do not behave like fascists.

    I'm glad you've suddenly become concerned about correcting misrepresentations. I just hope that the concern eventually extends to your own statements.

    Now, by all means, let's return to the topic of this thread.
  4. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Republicans do not behave like fascists.


    This is yet another opinion. Try to guess why you hold it? ;)
  5. VoijaRisa Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2002
    star 5
    Joking or not, it's time to move on
  6. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Edited since Mr44 intervened. THANK YOU.
  7. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    Wow...lots to comment on, but I only have a few moments. And I agree with my man Mr44 that we should try and be more civil to one another. :)

    I disagree with the notion that liberalism has been 'rejected' or is 'out of style'...or however one wants to put it. Yes the Republicans are in charge, but as has been stated in other threads, it is nothing like the Democrat's dominance during the FDR years, which turned around quickly by 1952.

    Anyway, many of the liberal insitutions (or welfare state depending on one's POV ;)) still exist despite the fact there are many who outright oppose them. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, minimum wage, etc....are still with us. Yes, some changes have been made, but any candidate who wishes to totally abolish these programs/laws would probably be in trouble. No longer is there a loud call for the abolishment of the Department of Education, in fact the current administration has expanded federal powers in education (NCLB). Roe v Wade has yet to be overturned, and Bush was a bit evasive regarding the Assualt Weapon Ban, pledging to support it if it came to his desk but really doing nothing about it. Even the gay marriage ban amendment doesn't look likely to pass.

    I guess the point is that sure, there has been a shift, back and forth, between conservatism and liberalism in our country, with our country probably center-right at this point, but as V03 likes to point out, when it shifts one way, it usually shifts back.


  8. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Dean says Republicans are 'evil'...

    Dean roars into town
    Democrats welcome new DNC leader

    By Joel Mathis, Journal-World

    Saturday, February 26, 2005

    There were plenty of screams Friday afternoon at Liberty Hall, but none of them came from Howard Dean.

    Instead, the new chairman of the Democratic National Committee was cheered enthusiastically by a sign-waving crowd gathered to hear Dean's message that the party must build its strength in traditionally Republican states such as Kansas.

    "We need to go everywhere," he told the rally. "There is not one county in this state, I don't care how far west you go, that doesn't have Democrats. We have to be proud of who we are."

    It was a message gladly received among the Democratic faithful.

    "It was wonderful, very energizing, a very positive, powerful message," said Micheline Burger, who joined nearly 1,000 others in paying $5 to hear Dean, the former presidential candidate. "It gives me a hope there's a good future ahead of us, as opposed to what we've been having the last four years."

    Mark Simpson, executive director of the Kansas Democratic Party, was unavailable to say how much the party raised Friday. But Dean's rally, along with a $100-a-head fund-raiser at the home of Lawrence residents John and Nancy Hiebert, provided the state party with a fresh infusion of cash.

    Just as important, other officials said, they got some inspiration.

    "Just enthusiasm," said Kathy Greenlee, chair of Douglas County Democrats. "Not only for Democrats in Douglas County, but Democrats across Kansas."


    Red meat

    More than 100 people attended the Hiebert fund-raiser, where the house was festooned with a dozen "Dean for America" signs in the front yard.

    Media weren't allowed into the event. But Dean spoke in the Hieberts' backyard, over a public address system, making it relatively easy to hear and see -- there were wide slits in the fence -- from a side street. At one point a group of four people quietly huddled at the fence to listen.

    His speech was similar in both Liberty Hall and the Hiebert back yard. Democrats, he said, must reframe the values debate, claiming the high ground on Social Security, health care and protecting American security.

    "Those are Kansas values," he said.

    But the Hiebert crowd got a little more red meat than the Liberty Hall attendees.

    On abortion specifically, he said, the party must commit to making abortions "safe, legal and rare" while maintaining women's rights to choose.

    "The issue is not abortion," Dean told the closed-door fund-raiser. "The issue is whether women can make up their own mind instead of some right-wing pastor, some right-wing politician telling them what to do."

    And Dean told the Hiebert fund-raiser that gay marriage was a Republican diversion from discussions of ballooning deficits and lost American jobs. That presents an opportunity to attract moderate Republicans, he said.

    "Moderate Republicans can't stand these people (conservatives), because they're intolerant. They don't think tolerance is a virtue," Dean said, adding: "I'm not going to have these right-wingers throw away our right to be tolerant."

    And concluding his backyard speech with a litany of Democratic values, he added: "This is a struggle of good and evil. And we're the good."

    When told of Dean's remarks, Derrick Sontag -- executive director of the Kansas Republican Party -- said he was "shocked."

    "My immediate reaction to that whole dialogue is, it's full of hatred," Sontag said. "The Democratic Party has elected a leader that's full of hatred."

    ?Energy and focus'

    Back at Liberty Hall, the ruling party's supporters weren't entirely absent from the area. Lawrence entrepreneur Eric Haar held a one-man demonstration in front of the Eldridge Hotel, 701 Mass. With a Bush-Cheney sign in his hand, he sat silently as the crowd of Lawrence liberals shuffled toward the event.

    "I just want to show people driving by that not everybody is gung-ho and crazy about this Howar
  9. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    OH, I am just so giddy over Howard Dean's accension to the DNC Chair.

    Talk about getting an early christmas present for the next 4 years!!!!

    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

    ANd to think I have been worried that the Democrat's would not REALLY nominate Hillary because they knew she would self destruct the Dem's!!! With Howards accension, Hillary's nomination and General Election Disaster defeat is all but assured!!!

    Thank you MOVE ON.ORG. Please keep taking back your party!!!
  10. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    This sports team mentality is really getting old. Get over it.
  11. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    Rah!Rah!Rah!

    GOOOOOOOOOOOO REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!


    ;)
  12. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    That gave a bad mental image. *cringes horribly*

    I'm going to bed.
  13. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    Jus' playin'


    G'night bro.
  14. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well, I think this goes to disprove TripleB's assertion that Dean is on the far left and not interested in reaching out to moderates.

    Praying for American troops and evoking biblical images of helping the needy, Howard Dean told Mississippi Democrats on Tuesday night that the national party won't give up on socially conservative states.

    "We're not going to concede the South," the new chairman of the Democratic National Committee told an overflow crowd of more than 900 people in a dining room that was set up for 800 in the Clarion hotel near downtown Jackson.

    "The South will rise again, and when it does, it will have a D after its name," Dean said to applause from the diverse crowd of blacks and whites...

    "The way we're going to win elections in this country is not to become Republican lite. The way we're going to win elections in this country is to stand up for what we believe in," Dean said.

    Speaking at the $75-a-plate Mississippi Democratic Party dinner, Dean criticized the national debt and said: "You cannot trust Republicans with your taxpayer dollars."

    He prayed for American troops, saying even those who had criticized the war in Iraq should support soldiers and their families. He also said the Democratic Party should reach out to evangelical Christians and the party has room for people with divergent views on abortion.

    "I want to reach out to people who are worried about values," Dean said. "We are going to embrace pro-life Democrats because pro-life Democrats care about kids after they're born, not just before they're born."

  15. Neo-Paladin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2004
    star 4
    So this discussion is kind of log jammed, but I'll throw in my 2 cents + tax anyway.

    Bubba had posted part of that article, or one very much like it Darth Mischievous, but thank you for posting the whole thing.
    Dean is engaging in rhetoric there, but not irredeemably so. Even in the anti-conservative rhetoric he does reach out to moderates. He characterizes intolerance as evil, and extreme conservatives as intolerant. Not a generalization I would make (too wide for my tastes), but I have personally experienced more intolerance in the extreme right than the extreme left... Regardless, for a Unitarian, intolerance is one of the things they do consider evil (or at least unacceptable). From that perspective, it does become a fight of ideals and values.

    NPR played a good portion of the later speech that Jediflyer put up. In it he speaks a lot more moderately, but with energy. He speaks about standing up for liberal values, and not becoming apologists. I still say he has the savvy to cover the spectrum.

    As I said before, I dearly wish the party was beyond this, but I recognize it must get over some perceptions before it can move forward. Before Democrats can hope to win an intellectual battle they have to change perceptions so they are at least seen as starting from a equally valid position as republicans It sounds like Dean recognizes this, and is working towards it.
  16. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    JediFLyer, you go ahead and keep thinking that your party is not being run by the MoveOn/Michael Moore wing of the party.
  17. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    TripleB, don't forget that the Hillary Clinton wing of the party has been moving to the middle for awhile.

    (And before anyone calls Hillary a sell-out, remember what a freakin moderate George Bush claimed to be. He even thought he would be, claiming he wouldn't try to use the gay issue to get votes.)
  18. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    TripleB, don't forget that the Hillary Clinton wing of the party has been moving to the middle for awhile.


    Which is why the Democratic Party has a problem with the perception that it doesn't hold to their true ideals and will say anything to get elected. Like him or not: With GWB, you know the man believes in what he's putting out as his platform. With Hillary Clinton, you don't have that confidence nor did you with John Kerry.

    Hillary isn't moving to the center because she believes in it, she's doing it to position herself for a run at the White House because she knows that being on the left will kill her in a national election.

    She's very shrewd, but the GOP will take advantage of her phoniness by pointing out her true agenda (e.g., remember Hillarycare in the early 90's?).

    I've met Hillary Clinton IRL, and talked with her about health care. She's as phony as they come, and as arrogant as everyone says she is.

  19. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    OBW said

    TripleB, don't forget that the Hillary Clinton wing of the party has been moving to the middle for awhile.

    No, the media say's that HIllary Clinton has been moving to the middle. I am sure you and a lot of other people may by this act, but not me, and I don't think most american's will buy her little "moderation" act. Everyone knows her for what she is and all the spin and pretending in the world won't sell her as anything near the middle when it comes down to it.

    BUt I guess you and Vaderize have fell for it.
  20. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Hey TripleB, how about answering what OBM said about Bush promising not to use gay marriage as an issue to get out votes, when Karl Rove did exactly that, and gave interviews to that effect?

    You accuse us of being so liberal we're blinded, but as Benjamin Franklin once famously said "Wipe your finger before you point it at me" ;).

    Peace,

    V-03
  21. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    V said

    Hey TripleB, how about answering what OBM said about Bush promising not to use gay marriage as an issue to get out votes, when Karl Rove did exactly that, and gave interviews to that effect?

    You realize that the people of the United States, from teh Right and the Left...no wait I bet Gavin Newsome is not a liberal, is he? made it an issue?

    You accuse us of being so liberal we're blinded, but as Benjamin Franklin once famously said "Wipe your finger before you point it at me"

    I am not the one claiming my side is moving to the center, I don't pretend to be a centrist, last I checked.
  22. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    With GWB, you know the man believes in what he's putting out as his platform.

    The Pat Robertsons, Steve Forbes and Michael Moores of the world also supposedly believe 100 percent in their causes...but that doesn't mean I'd vote for em. When they do it, they are 'radical', but when W does it, he's 'bold'. Then again, Bush could fart and many would describe it as a 'bold statement regarding his Clear Skies inititative'.

    Politicians move to the middle to get elected nationally. Only a rare talent and 'good' timing (FDR, Reagan) can do otherwise. Bush could've featured Tom Delay, Dennis Hastert and John Ashcroft in his re-election bid but instead chose McCain, Guliani, Zell Miller and Arnold (at the convention)...for obvious reasons.

    IMO while Hillary wouldn't be an outright disaster, she carries too much 'baggage' to win a national election. Whether or not she or anyone else is too 'liberal' is less important than finding a good, strong candidate, because regardless if we nominate Evan Byah, Joe Lieberman, or Dennis Kucinich, he or she is going to be described as a left-wing, elitist liberal.

    As I have said (then again pretty much everything I say these days is a repeat of an earlier post ;)) the 2008 election should be very interesting considering it is the first time since 1952 that the nominations are wide-open.




  23. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    The Democrats would be wise not to nominate another 'Kerry' or 'Dean'-type candidate in '08.

    The Governor of Virginia is a possibility for them.
  24. Eschatos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2005
    star 1
    What do you guys make of Bush appointing John Bolton as his ambassador to the UN? Does it really make sense to appoint a man who has deep reservations about the concept of international law to an international body? This seems to be a blatant, "Screw you!" to the organization.
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    They're talking about Jeb Bush being on the ticket as Vice in '08, since he has absolutely ruled out running.

    Imagine if the GOP ticket was Condi Rice and Jeb Bush as the GOP ticket in 2008?

    Hey, if Hillary got the nomination, who do you think would compliment her? Barak Obama? Tom Vilsack? WHos' the Gov. of Virginia?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.