The Republic and Jedi are Evil

Ok, I se were you're coming from now. I agree that it was right for Luke to confront the dark side, Yoda probably became very cautious also and given how many of Anakin's flaws was in Luke too, he wanted to take no chances this time. I've never said that the Jedi are infallible, and this is clearly a case of Yoda having learned from past mistakes.

But Luke confronted and conquered his inner demons, he never fell to them. And that is what I thought you meant a Jedi had to do. I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

they have to do it, everyone does. the PT jedi just don't recognize it. so they fail that part of growing up.

 

Yes, in Jungian psychology and Campbell it does, and if I was still fully convinced Lucas was planning them soley on the guidelines of Jung and Campbell's work I'd definitely agreee. However, Lucas himself has said that Anakin sells his soul to the "devil" and given that Mustafar was definitely designed to invoke the stereotypical images of the Judeo-Christian Hell, I tend to fall more along that line of thinking.

I think confronting the Dark Side is one thing, but falling to the Dark Side is another completely. Luke confronts the Dark Side in the Dark Side cave on Dagobah, and fails. Luke only succeeds in RotJ where he's tempted and turns away, just as Obi-Wan Kenobi had done years before on Naboo.

I thought you had meant that one must become "an agent of evil" as Anakin does.

Everyone has to confront the Darkness or fall prey to it? The Prequel Jedi did confront them, as everyone has emotions and their darker impulses, the Jedi just didn't succumb to them as Anakin does.

 

anakin doesn't succumb to it. he is still there. they are just unwilling to recognize it.

 

No, I definitely don't mean that one must become "an agent of evil" - what I mean is that one must confront the dark side. This doesn't mean one must fall prey to it. Anakin sold his soul to the devil because he fell prey to it.

Where you and I differ I think is when it comes to the role of mentors. I don't see how or where the Jedi in the prequels confronted their dark side, or encouraged their apprentices to do so. Luke, as we see in the cave scene, was taught how to confront the dark side by Yoda. Anakin, as far as I see, was only taught to avoid the dark side. Luke from the very beginning was made aware of the seductive potential and temptation of the dark side, and thus he was convinced that it wasn't the right path for him. Anakin, by contrast, didn't have the negative example of a fallen Jedi in his mind and he wasn't taught about the dark side and how to confront and overcome it. As a result, he failed in the confrontation with the dark side. He got drawn into it instead of overcoming it. In my opinion, this development isn't only due to character weaknesses on the part of Anakin (although they play a part in it) but it is also a result of the Jedi's failure in educating him.

 

Committing errors and making mistakes and learning from them is part of human nature, an essential part actually. Why it is so hard to accept that the Jedi also made mistakes and learnt from then is something I fail to understand.

 

Anakin does succumb to it, that doesn't mean he's completely gone though as if he was RotJ couldn't have happened. He's for the most part dead though as of Episode 3 given that when he appears as a ghost, he appears as the young man he was before his fall, not as the old man he was when he was redeemed. (I do prefer the idea that Anakin was in there the whole time, but with the Hayden ghost it seems to point more towards the other direction, and implying that Obi-Wan wasn't so far off about Anakin's metaphorical "death.")

I do agree that Luke was given a more comprehensive knowledge of just what the Dark Side will seem like to him, but, I don't think Anakin had a complete lack of knowledge on the Dark Side given that he's fully aware that what he is doing is wrong, he just views it as his duty to Padme, regardless of the consequences and it then becomes a lust for power as evidenced by the fact that he wants Padme to rule the Galaxy by his side. I however think that is in no small part due to the fact that the OT Jedi were fresh off of a loss to the Sith whereas none of the Jedi in the Prequels had ever seen a Sith before Darth Maul.

I do think that a part of that could be that Anakin was mostly taught by Obi-Wan who, for all of his strengths simply wasn't as knowledgeable as Yoda and certainly not Yoda as of Empire Strikes Back.

It could definitely be a differing view of the role of mentors though.

Oh, I definitely think the Jedi made mistakes in the Prequels. They in my opinion shouldn't have been as directly tied to the government, should have done training more like we see in the OT wher

 

oh dunno. he isn't dead, that's for sure, yougn or old force ghost. i can somehow buy a version of events that says he believes he's dead to the world, anakin that is.

i'm not discussing the metaphor of his force ghost, i'm discussing the metaphor of his journey. and that journey is 'there and back again' quite obviously. to the dark side of human nature and back.

a necessary part of his journey, which he didn't have through the jedi, not with any conscious and active help.

 

It wasn't in any way necessary for him to become a Sith Lord. It's not a part of the Prophecy which is to destroy the Sith. It certainly wasn't something he needed to find out or even wanted to find out as all he wanted was to be a Jedi and save Padme.

His journey isn't necessarily 'there and back again' as it could easily be that of the tragic hero which his how one of the greatest can fall from grace but in the end redeem himself.

 

i think it was totally necessary and totally part of his journey. prove me wrong.

exploring your darkness doesn't mean you ahve to become a sith lord, however. it just means you face your demons and become whole. some do it through sithlording, some through not going out of their way to massmurder.

there's different approaches.

 

You can't prove a negative. Prove it was a necessary part of his journey.

However, because I'm sure you'll take that as me having no evidence, not that the burden of proof falls on you to prove that it is, not for me to prove that it was not necessary.

The only line about it in the Saga is

"YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE, IT WAS SAID THAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE SITH NOT JOIN THEM!"

And that's referring to the Prophecy. It's a Jedi Prophecy, thus Obi-Wan(a member of the Jedi High Council) would know the text, and thus it's that the Chosen One is supposed to destroy the Sith.

There's also

"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
--George Lucas

It doesn't get much clearer or more definitive than that given that anything that comes from Lucas is defined as canon.

It's still mass murder and isn't merely confronting your Dark Side. Anakin's Dark Side defeated him for the vast majority of his life, until at the very end his compassion for his son allowed him to overcome it.

 

we all know what anakin's fear was -losing people he loved.
he got advice for that actually.

he was told to confront his fears through training himself to let go.
he didn't take that advice. he chose to not confront his demons!
the jedi didn't ask him to forget about his fears.

so there it is...
the jedi in the PT are indeed encouraged to face their fears rather than to put them in a box and forget about them.

 

Being told to let go definitely is NOT the same thing as "confronting one's fears" - if it was, there would be no need whatsoever for any form of psychotherapy.

I'm wondering whether you have read the previous posts? We have been talking about the mythological concept of "the hero's journey" as related to Anakin. This is about initiation rites: "The hero having crossed the threshold is swallowed into the unknown abyss, reborn in the new world, and may appear to those left behind as dead or lost. This may manifest as the hero is swallowed into the darkness and lands in the ?Belly of the Whale.? There he awaits rebirth or release from this purgatorial state." (http://www.mythichero.com/what_is_mythology.htm ). Being told to let go of one's fears in no way qualifies as an initiation rite. You might want to do some basic reading on this.

 

it happens.

obi-wan is hardly unbiased towards the whole affair. no proof. just propaganda.

so you deem what is a good approach and what's not? i don't.

 

he isn't just being told to let go.
read my post again...

how do you suggest one confronts ones fears then?
killing of someone anakin loves just so he can get some experience in dealing with it???
the key word here is 'training' and looking inwards and understand why you are afraid.
when you do that you'll hopefully realize that death isn't something to fear. even better, with this insight you won't let it control your actions.

what a lovely condescending tone you have
that's what you've been talking about mr...

my response was directed to the degobah cave, and the lack of confrontation of fears in the PT, which i disagree with.
and besides, who made you the chairman of this thread?
i'll decide for myself what i chose to discuss and address in this thread pal

 

I haven't heard of any approach in psychotherapy that requires the client to kill their loved ones - so no, I don't think this is necessary.
I don't see how Anakin received any training besides the advise "train yourself to let go." There was no mention of looking inwards and understanding why you are afraid during the PT.

Oh I just thought adressing the thread topic or considering previous posts instead of just skipping over everything and throwing in some random and rather unrelated comment with an attitude of "i decide for myself what I write" might help the discussion and give people at least the impression that one is interested what they've written and not just in seeing one's own opinion posted - but maybe that's just me *shrug*

 

so you don't think that jedi were trained in meditation???
and the reason why there is no mention of it, is because it's implied in the advice...

i considered your posts and found them irrelevant to the point i wanted to make.
deal with it

it's on topic, and was a response to a point made in this thread.
i dunno what your problem is?

the point is, it's not about you.
it's about feeling free to respond to the points and posts you see fit without having someone like yourself make a condescending remark...

edit: in case you have forgotten...
here's what you wrote: "I don't see how or where the Jedi in the prequels confronted their dark side, or encouraged their apprentices to do so. Luke, as we see in the cave scene, was taught how to confront the dark side by Yoda."

i responded and disagreed.
if you can't handle disagreement without making condescending remarks, then stay out of it.

 

I agree with jvbergreen about your condescending tone Mandragora. If you believe so much in what you write, you should not need to be condescending. Just because a book or an internet page says something does not make it universal!

Anakin was, as most Jedi was - we can only assume, trained to control his fears and master them. You then look into yourself - but you also find it in others. You learn from it, and you grow. All the other Jedi seemed to handle that fine. To train people to let go is not evil. Not all people in the world are afraid of dying. Some accept it as part of life - that's what the Jedi wanted to teach. That's what Anakin refused. He was obsessive and wanted to control EVERYTHING - even life. How can that be a good thing? Where does it stop. The Jedi knew where the limits were.

And pshychtherapy is just as real because people - against all reason - are afraid of things totally harmless. They are nevrotic and whatnot. Anakin was afraid of the unknown - if he had listened to the Jedi and the force, he would not have been. But he was influenced by evil - Palpatine. That's why I don't get this topic. Maybe it's interesting to discuss, but it goes against all reason. How can you be evil while trying to do good?

I read that the Jedi were doing wrong because they fight. And then some argue about pacifism. Against pure evil, pacifism will only delight. Chamberlain was perhaps the greatest fool in recent history with his "let's wait and see" tactic. He feared to fight. Against some foes, you must fight. It is sorry indeed, but sometimes it is required. I doubt if Jedi fights for fun - it sure didn't seem that way when OBW went after Anakin!

This may be a bit off-topic, but I can't bother reading 12 pages

 

good points all around rossa

 

I don't think meditation is a valid approach for dealing with psychological states of severe acute fear (there's a reason meditation teachers usually warn of practising meditation in acute psychological crises)- and no, actually I don't think meditation is a valid approach for confronting issues originating in the subconscious in general. I'm in agreement with Stephen Wolinsky and other psychologists on that matter, who made the point that meditation adresses a different level than the shadow realms and is thus ineffective in dealing with problems that are caused by these.

I wasn't talking about ignoring my own posts specifically but about ignoring everyone elses and taking on one point completely out of context. If it comforts you, I find this equally condescending as you seem to find my suggestion to do a bit of reading on mythology when adressing questions that have to do with initiation rites. I guess the part on "indepth analysis" now regrettably is over in this thread and we're back to 3SA board type discussions of bickering and repeating renowned positions over and over, so I think I'll leave it at this.

 

and that's fine.
what you're arguing is that it is a bad method for confronting fears.
what i'm arguing is that the jedi confronted their fears.

whether it's a good or bad method is a different discussion.

i have no problem with your indepth analysis. by all means continue.

i merely used your arguement as a basis for what seems to be a reoccuring theme in this thread about how the jedi in the PT were somehow afraid to adress issues and problems -ordering jedi to just "forget about it".

we disagree when it comes to aproaches to discussing things.
let's leave it at that.

 

Thank jvberggren

Mandragora: concerning meditation - do all the scientists and philosophers really know all there is to know about it? It's very interesting what you qoute - and I think it's a good thing you do. But the fact is that we don't know as much as we want to. What we don't understand we dismiss. Scientists are very good at that. I know someone who meditates and knows how a human body functions - and how you can fix it by altering what we may refer to as electric currents. Tell that to a scientist and you may find yourself standing on top of a big fire, screaming your loungs out

 

I'm certain that still is ignorant about a lot of things about meditation. There's been quite some amount of research on how meditation works in the last decades, mainly in the realm of biofeedback research. Meditation, actually rather the relaxation aspect of meditation, can definitely affect human body functions like heart rate or blood pressure as well as stress induced conditions, parts that are normally goverened by the autonomous nervous system, that much can be considered as proven.

The reservation of meditation to approach issues of the subconscious on the part of psychologists mainly stems from bad experiences with clients - I've done quite a bit of research on this because I'm teaching taoist meditation techniques myself occasionally and of course I want to avoid doing damage by it. Under normal circumstances the subconscious is locked off quite effectively and meditation has proven successful in reaching the higher subconscious realms, the realm of dreams, archetypes etc., but not when it comes to the deeper subconscious, the most basic and dark factors like basic fears. There seems to be some self protection mechanism working here. In situations of psychological crises or acute conditions like depression or angst, these self protection barriers are weakened and are in danger of being broken down by meditation practises. If this happens, the patient may be overflooded by the shadow material uncontrollably and experience psychological trauma, which may make his condition a lot worse. Consequenly persons with usually aren't admitted or are asked to leave by teachers when in courses that teach higher level meditation techniques (techniques transcending basic relaxation meditations or autogenous training or the like). It seems that for controlled confrontation of the shadow realm meditation just isn't a valid approach. It either can't overcome the self protection barrier of the human psyche in cases when this barrier is functionable, or when it is out of function it opens the proverbial can of worms and the client is overflooded by his fears uncontrollably. I suspect that perhaps the relative absense of control of the rational mind in states of meditation might be responsible for the failure to access these issues in a controlled manner.

Anyway, I don't know one single meditation teacher who attempts or advocates adressing the "inner dark side" by means of higher level meditation, but I heard a lot of teachers warning of it. Actually the attitude of far eastern teachers on this question does very much resemble the PT Jedi attitude - they usually argue that the shadow realm is best left in peace. Conversely I haven't heard of any psychotherapeutical program in which meditation techniques play a major role in adressing these issues. There are simply enough other approaches available, like for example the inner child approach, that have proven both more effective and safer. Meditation is a powerful tool for positively influencing body function, accessing the dream realm and even reaching enlightenment, but it is not the panacea some people claim it to be.

 

So? It happening doesn't mean that's the only way it could have gone.

It's a Jedi prophecy. It's going to be pro-Jedi.

So it's perfectly fine to go out and slaughter people? It's completely fine that Vader is complicit in the death of Billions and directly kills many himself?

I haven't seen him be condescending, but I agree with the part about sources not necessarily being universal, especially when direct official sources contradict.

Exactly.

To be fair, Hitler thought he was doing good as do most evil men.

Precisely.

I personally haven't ever had issue with mandragora.

 

no, but it's the way it goes