The retards who made Kyle Katarn's stats...

What were they THINKING? Levels in Scoundrel? Level ONE Jedi Guardian? WHAT? Let's review his career, and I'll say what I think he would be after it.

1. He joins the Imperial Academy once he hears that his father was killed by Rebels. He stays in it a while, before he realizes that the Imperials were actually the ones who did it, and framed the Rebellion.

Kyle Katarn- Soldier 1

2. He defects from the Imperials and becomes a Rebel Scout/Spy, stealing the Death Star Plans, shutting down an illegal alloy mining operation, destroying the Dark Trooper project, and putting to stop a rogue Imperial madman. He also destroys a capital starship.

Kyle Katarn- Scout 3/Soldier 3
And this is being lenient.

3. He continues his work with being s Scout/Spy for a while, before he discovers that he is one of the most force-sensitive beings in the galaxy. Training himself with instructions from his father's holorecords, he single-handedly cuts down Yun, a dark jedi apprentice, Maw, the Dark Jedi who killed Kyle's father, Sariss, an extremely adept Dark Jedi, and Jerec, a Sith Lord.

Kyle Katarn- Scout 4/Soldier 3/Jedi Guardian 7
(this is being REALLY lenient, considering everything he did).

4. In the expansion, he takes on an apprentice, and temporarily falls to the Dark Side. He manages to return to the Light Side.

Kyle Katarn- Scout 4/Soldier 3/Jedi Guardian 7/Jedi Master 2/Dark Side Devotee 1.

5. Believing that he can no longer trust himself with the Force, Kyle swears it off forever, promising to himself that he won't use it anymore, and goes back to beinga Rebel agent. He purposely tries to weaken his connection to the Force, and returns his Lightsaber to Luke Skywalker for safekeeping.

Kyle Katarn- Scout 4/Soldier 3/Jedi Guardian 7/Jedi Master 2/Dark Side Devotee 1. SQ: Cannot use Force abilities.

6. After a Dark Jedi named Desann kidnaps his operations partner, Jan, Kyle decides that he needs to regain his Jedi abilities if he is to be able to fight him. He meditates in the Valley of the Jedi for a while, regaining all his force-sensitivity, and retrieves his lightsaber from Luke. He single-handedly stops the dark Reborn Jedi, and defeats Desann and his dark apprentice, Tavion.

Kyle Katarn- Scout 4/Soldier 3/Jedi Guardian 10/Jedi Master 2/Dark Side Devotee 1

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Just to explain a couple things...

The Jedi Master levels are from when Kyle had an apprentice. The Dark Side Devotee levels are from when he temporarily fell to the dark side. When he took his lightsaber back, he gained in Jedi Guardian again, because he wasn't training an apprentice. There you go.

Yes, he is Level 20, but in all reality, I wanted to make him a Level 26 character (but they don't exist). He's just done so much.

My point is, what were they thinking when they gave Kyle his stats? Where the hell did the Scoundrel levels come from? He's NEVER been a Scoundrel-type character, he's ALWAYS been a scout/soldier type. What is wrong with them? Errgghh...

On a side-note, the type of character Kyle Katarn is would be a fun type to play. He's good with blaster weapons and lightsabers. I'd give him a Light Repeating Blaster Rifle (3d8) for ranged, and Lightsaber (err...5d8). Both are about equally useful, really, in different situations.

 

True, Kyle has acomplished many things. He not only worked for the rebellion, he also was a freelance merc for a time, thats where the scoundrel levels come from. Lvl 20 characters from the movies include Yoda and Palpy, thats it. As good as Kyle is, I doubt he could take on Palpy, or Yoda(before he got sick) for that matter. Lvl 20 characters not only do lots of things, they are great leaders, Palpy lead an empire and took over the universe, Yoda lead the jedi councle and directed the clone wars. In true cannon, EU or movie, Lvl 20 chars are very rare. I would give him Lvl 17 max.

 

Why does he have to have 20 levels? How many did Skywalker have when he beat Vader? Sorry, but being a star of a first person shooter doesn't make you eligable for epic levels. Otherwise that guy from Doom could be the most powerful Space Marine in the galaxy!

 

Hmm...alright, I can see the logic in that...

Level 17, one level blow Luke Skywalker, but still significantly his inferior in terms of the Force.

Still, I can't acknowledge any Scoundrel levels. He's been a Scout/Soldier type. Not a Scoundrel...Jan handles the slicing, whereas Kyle did Scoutish things like doing scouting missions for the rebellion, and Soldierish things like mowing down troops and setting explosives.

Just to put it all in relative perspective, I suppose I'd change his stats to...

Scout 2/Soldier 3/Jedi Guardian 10/Jedi Master 2

Kyle was tainted for such a short time it's negligible in the grand scheme of things (and not important enough to make it through the 3 levels I had to cut). I can see Kyle giving Luke a run for his money, but Luke might have the upper hand slightly.

 

I think you are blowing this guys abilities way out of proportion. He doesn't do anything any other Player wouldn't attempt to do in a heartbeat. Look, the game actually did something right when they readjusted levels for Named Characters for D20. Solo is no longer the most skilled man ever. Skywalker isn't the uber killer. Leia isn't the galaxies most combat oriented Senator. What you're proposing would take away what was done in attempt to fix things. Personally, I'm leaning towards Scout 1/Soldier 4/Jedi Guardian 3. More realistic.

 

I found a website that still has homemade stats for Kyle pre RCRB and JK2. It has him as a 6th level Soldier and 8th level Jedi Guardian. Bottom line, though, given the impotency of non Jedi against Jedi in the movies and novels, I don't think Kyle could have taken on Jerec with a single Jedi level. Besides, in JK, he at least had the three force feats because he had telekinesis and enhance sight (Force Seeing). Not to mention his taking on an apprentice. MINIMUM 4th level Jedi at the end of JK, minimum 7th at the beginning of MotS.

 

Also -- please remember:

"1. He joins the Imperial Academy once he hears that his father was killed by Rebels. He stays in it a while, before he realizes that the Imperials were actually the ones who did it, and framed the Rebellion. "

What level are Stormtroopers? (y'know, the elite groundtroopers).

THUG levels.

Soldier 1 is perfectly acceptible for Kyle...

 

Being an apprentice has a different meaning in canon than it does in the RPG. In the RPG it seems you must be at least a Jedi Knight to have an apprentice (which they stick at level 7). I think Jerecs crew weren't apprentices so much as lackeys with force potential. Jerec himself shouldn't be more than 8 levels worth of class. Remember, were he too powerful, the Emperor or Vader would've killed him for being a threat.

 

Just go to the SWRPGNetwork website. The stats there for Kyle are decent enough.

 

Tremaniac, I'll give you that 17th level may be a bit high, but even with downsizing heros, there's no way Kyle is only a Level 8 character.

Maybe I could be convinced that he's only a 14 or 15th level character, but not lower than that.

I gave him Soldier 1 for his training in the Imperial Army. The other levels of Soldier came from everything he did in Dark Forces. Also, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that after all Kyle training in the ways of the Jedi in JKII, that defeating Jerec and freeing the spirits of the Jedi trapped there didn't bring Kyle to Jedi Guardian 7 (Jedi Knight). It was just so climactically perfect, like Luke achieving Jedi Knighthood after beating Vader.

 

I agree Kyle should be at LEAST level 13

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. But then again, in a world where there is no Padawan/Master relationship, he could call himself a Jedi Knight at level 2 and almost no one could dispute it. And if you give XP the way the book suggests, 8 is more than fair for him.

 

Tremaniac, have you even played the original Dark Forces, Dark Forces 2:Jedi Knight, and Jedi Outcast? If you awarded points the way the book suggests, Kyle would have 300,000-500,000 experience.

I can accept some Hero downsizing, but honestly...I think anything under 13th level for Kyle is completely and utterly idiotic.

As for the SWRPGNetwork's stats...they also made the mistake of giving him Scoundrel levels, but after looking at some of the other stats on that page I've lost some confidence in their ability to accurately give d20 stats for characters. They made Reborn Masters 12th level Jedi Guardians! How many tens of those has Kyle dispatched? Also, Tavion is only level 11, weaker than a Reborn Master!

I'd put the Reborn at:

Reborn Jedi- Jedi Guardian 2

Reborn Swordsman- Jedi Guardian 4

Reborn Master- Jedi Guardian 6

and....

Tavion- Jedi Guardian 10

Desann- Jedi Guardian 6/Dark Side Devotee 2/Sith Lord 6

Again, replay Dark Forces II:Jedi Knight and tell me that Kyle's climactic victory against Jerec (and refusing to kill him, thus triumphing over the dark side, just as Luke did) was not Kyle final test for Knighthood (not literally, of course).

 

Except that Desann wasn't Sith that I am aware of...

 

Eh, then change it to Jedi Guardian 12/Dark Side Devotee 2.

 

Again, your sticking to the standard that you must be level 7 to be a Jedi Knight. And I've played both Dark Forces, and am a huge fan of Jedi Knight, but running around killing a bunch of retarded monkeys in stormtrooper armor shouldn't give you double digits in levels. Sorry, but repitition is worth only so much XP wise. To overpower NPCs is to admit that lower level players are effectively useless. I will not accept that. I could run a few 3-4th level characters through that (the set of games that is), get them to level 7 or 8 in time for the fight with Jerec, and watch them mop the floor with him and his cronies.

 

He wasn't just running straight through levels mowing down stormtrooper monkeys, almost every level had puzzles to solve, things that required ingenuity in some of the later games. And if your heros would only be Level 8 by the time you ran them to Jerec, then you must give enough experience to level up once every four LONG (3+ hour) adventures. I might also add that Kyle did all these things by himself, so there would be no splitting up of experience.

This is what I feel the absolute lowest stats to do justice for Kyle would be (these stats are right after the events of JK, they do not include Jedi Outcast):

Kyle Katarn, Reluctant Jedi:

Kyle Katarn was a fresh, talented soldier in the Imperial Academy. However, soon after he graduated, tragedy struck. Kyle was informed by the Imperials that his father had been killed in a Rebel ambush. Soon after he found out the truth, that the Imperials had killed his father. Kyle defected to the Rebellion. He demonstrated his skill as a rebel scout by stealing the Death Star plans, allowing Luke Skywalker to destroy the first Death Star. He continued to work for the Rebellion, and was essential in the effort to shut down the Empire's Dark Trooper project. He set off the creator of the Dark Troopers, and their flagship, the Arc Hammer, into a firey inferno as he destroyed the ship before narrowly escaping. This should be enough for any one hero, but Kyle's destiny was about to expand. He soon discovered that his father was a Jedi, and that he was also very attuned to the Force. Training himself in the ways of the Jedi with the help of a friend of his father's, Kyle's father, Kyle grew in power in the force. He combated a number of the Dark Jedi Jerec's cronies, including the dark apprentice Yun, and the Dark Jedi, Maw. As he lay victorious over Maw, his lightsaber pointed at the beast's throat, Maw taunted him about his father. Kyle, infuriated, struck down Maw in frustration and rage. Jerec, seeing an opportunity to convert the powerful Kyle to the dark side, tried to turn him to their side. Kyle, however, remained true to the light. He became a major thorn in Jerec's side as he eliminated his apprentices one by one. Finally, in a climactic battle in the long-lost Valley of the Jedi, Kyle and Jerec dueled. The fight was intense, but in the end Kyle prevailed. As he held his lightsaber to Jerec's throat, Jerec taunted him. "Kill me. That's what you want, isn't it?". Kyle paused, and, staying true to the Light Side, did not kill Jerec. Jerec took advantage of this opportunity to attempt to attack Kyle again, but this time Kyle was forced to strike Jerec down. As Jerec died, the long-trapped spirits of the Jedi in the Valley were freed, fulfilling an ancient prophecy. Kyle had avenged his father's death, and held true to the Light Side at the same time.

Kyle Katarn, Human Scout 2/Soldier 4/Jedi Guardian 7

Will you at least give him that? Kyle deserves it. He didn't just mow down a bunch of dummies, he has a story as rich and complex as Luke Skywalker's.

 

If you put this into perspective Corran Horn (who started his Jedi training much later than Kyle) is a level 16 character. With a Jedi Guardian 8

 

It should also be noted that Katarn is considered near to Skywalker on potential. If you look at the dark future ending of DFII, Kyle rules the galaxy. That means he's defeated Skywalker and done everything the Emperor failed to do.

The man is a freak, granted. No one should be able to learn to use the force the way he did in a couple of days, obviuously he must be considered an extraorduinary character.

Katarn is more than a match for Corran Horn in anything but a starfighter, indeed more than a match for anyone short of skywalker.

When we meet him in DF, he must have a number of levels to his name, otherwise there is no way that Mon Mothma would trust him with retrieving the plans to the Death Star. Who else would anyone even consider sending single handed to an Alliance base where they have lost contact?

Frankly, I hate D20 because the 20 levels create an artificial maximum for exceptional characters like Skywalker and Katarn. Much better to have a game built around a logarithmic scale like TORG.

 

Tremaniac, you said you could get a group of characters ready to fight a Dark Master. But Kyle is a single character. Jerec was a master of the Dark Side, a Jedi from the old times, he had powers that we have only seen Vader use (the Kinetite/Destruction) and was able to hold a team of dark jedi to his will, something that even the Sith consider too risky. He was very dangerous. For one character to take him down, well, Kyle must have gone through a lot of Force points there!

 

It should also be noted that Katarn is considered near to Skywalker on potential. If you look at the dark future ending of DFII, Kyle rules the galaxy. That means he's defeated Skywalker and done everything the Emperor failed to do.

Ah, but he did so AFTER abosrbing the power of the Valley of the Jedi. This should not mean that he was anywhere near to Skywalker, or Vader, or The Emperor -- just that he was insanely powerful from external means.

Plus, that ending doesn't exist within canon -- so it's also impossible to determine anything meaningful from it...

 

I still think that if we extend Kyle's timeline to his stats right after Jedi Outcast, we have a Level 18 character.

Scout 2/Soldier 4/Jedi Guardian 10/Jedi Master 2

Note that this does NOT make Kyle stronger in the Force than Luke.

Ask yourself this: Who do you think is stronger, Kyle Katarn, or Boba Fett? In a fight between these two, my money would be on the Jedi training and blaster training versatility of Kyle. Remember, Kyle forced Boba Fett to flee near the end of the first Dark Forces. That's before he even had any Jedi levels. And Boba's a Level 13 character.

Also, Tremaniac, how is being reasonable about what level an NPC should be, 'admitting that low-level players are useless'? They aren't. I ran a team of 3 4th level characters (Noble, JG, Sol) against two 4th level Dark Apprentices, and then against one 8th level Dark Jedi. They won, although the Soldier was reduced to -8 wound points and nearly died.

The thing is, a band of 6th level adventurers SHOULDN'T be able to take down Kyle Katarn. Not because they're weak, but because Katarn is so much stronger than them. If they have some insatiable desire to prove themselves against the legendary characters of Star Wars, start them off lower. Maybe at around 8th-9th level they can fight and kill Boba Fett.

If they want to take over the galaxy, don't let them have a chance at it until 16th level.

If you let your heros do anything they want to at 9-10th level, what's the point of leveling up any further?

 

I just put up Corran's stats for comparison. I didn't mean to say he could take Kyle. In fact I think he'd be at something of a disadvantage without telekenisis

 

There is no max of 20 levels. The 9 main classes follow a very easy to recognize pattern of growth, not to mention all of the multiclassing abilities. I once made a 75th level character.

 

Things would get extremely unbalanced (even more than they already are) if characters were allowed to go beyond Level 20. Think Lightsaber damage of 14d8 vs the same blaster damage for non-force sensitive characters.

If they would make the legendary characters a higher level (like 30-35) though, I'd probably give Kyle these stats:

Scout 2/Soldier 5/Elite Trooper 10/Jedi Guardian 10/Jedi Master 2

A Level 29 character =p.

Of course, that doesn't make sense as long as Yoda and Palpy are only Level 20, I'm just being hypothetical =p.

And yeah, I'd say Kyle's a higher level Jedi than Corran Horn. I think Kyle would wipe the floor with him (unless they were in starfighters, in which case Corran would win).