The retards who made Kyle Katarn's stats...

Yup, and that even considering that Corran is my favorite EU character.

 

Man, alot of responses, so here I go, in order.
Complex puzzles? Come on, it was stuck in a first person shooter, it was as complex as the lowest common denominator would allow for. That is to say a relatively keen 6 year old could do it. Kyle, I'm sorry, but you are more generous than I would be. I still say Guardian 3 or 4, tops. Call it stat inflation when he gets to the Valley of the Jedi, because it wouldn't happen any other way.
Rogue, that's assuming Corran went so far as the NJO series, most likely right up to his duel with that Vong commander. That's quite some time ahead of JK.
Jedi Bendu, you also forget Corran is an investigator first and foremost! He started off as a cop before he ever touched an X Wing, Lightsaber, or Myrax. As for him having levels, what a crock. If he were treated as a PC, he would be given missions because he is exceptional. He's a soldier, not a thug. Hell, a level 2 soldier is hot stuff compared to a thug. At least he gets Vitality points!
Yes, Kyle was a single character, which means he is supposed to be that much craftier. That should be based on the player, not the class and how many levels he has. As for Jerec being a Dark Side Master, that's about as funny picturing the Emperor playing Bacci Ball with all the retired Imperials in some old age home. He was an Imperial Captain (or some crap like that), who later learned the force. Now, because he's a villian (and StarWars ALWAYS needs to pump up villians), he was given some God aweful stats in the Dark Side book. If he had 7 levels of Jedi Guardian he'd count himself lucky. And the "team" of dark jedi were all working towards the same end. Every one of them wanted a piece of the Valley. That was why they followed him, not because he was some all powerful leader.
Back to Kyle. You contradict your own arguement about NPC power levels. Why can't four 6th level characters take him down? I'll tell you why. Because you're biased towards him. Were you running this session you would stack the odds against your gamers for that fight so they would have no choice but to lose. As I said, give me a level 2 thug, and I will kill Yoda for you. So lets not talk of how players can't kill NPCs. Katarn is only stronger because you insist he be. There is no other reason.
You insist Kyle could take Corran, I think you're wrong. Corran Horn was a character that was played smart (credit Mike Stackpole on that one). He thinks things through. Not to mention according to EU, he's done a hell of a lot more than Katarn.

 

A higher level non-force sensitive character would make it up with the amount of special abilities they get. Granted, a legendary Jedi's power would advance a lot faster than a legendary scoundrel's but when a 7th level Jedi is a match for a 12th level scoundrel, it's obvious that Jedi are overpowered anyway (see the Jedi-Overpowered? thread).

I have considered on more than a few occasions of changing Yoda's stats to make him level 30 or 40 (he's 800 years old!), but there's usually no reason since at the time the characters would face him, he'd be practically invincible at 20th anyway. Palpy I'd put at about 22, we really don't know how old he is or even his experience. Although supposedly he advanced two levels, one in Noble and one in Sith Lord, between TPM and RotJ.

I agree with your legendary stats, but I don't see the need for all those levels in Elite Trooper. I'd give him more levels in Jedi Master.

 

Jerec was a Jedi Master Archaeologist before he became a Dark jedi. He's a tough cookie.

Yes, a smart player is dangerous. But in a one on one fight against a Dark master, you must be strong in the force, not just in role-playing terms, but in star wars terms.

Kyle is a problem for stats, because he is:

A) ridiculous, no one could learn the force that fast, not even a skywalker

and

B) completely ignored by the rest of the EU. Frankly his exclusion from the NJO series essentially tacks him into an alternate timeline.

But when you consider the sheer power he has mustered and the dealy opponents he has faced, he must be considered as an extremely powerfulk individual. No, he's not well written (like Horn) but he is a tough cookie.

 

Perhaps as without defering to the "must be powerful" methodigy, we can simplify it. Yoda. Yeah, he's short, green, and all powerful. Kinda like a pint sized Hulk. Why give him levels at all? GMs, take note.
If you are reasonable with what he can and can't do, he doesn't need levels at all. You, being the final arbitor of right and wrong, can simply make it be. So long as you don't go on a Super Ego Power Trip, is that so different from an epic level character? Should my players ask, I simply say the Emperor and Yoda simply don't have levels. From the movies you have a pretty good idea of what each is capable of. Make the rest up. After all, Yoda should be used in a teacher/mentor setup and the Emperor is in the "My God, you can't be so stupid as to stand up to him" category.

 

Yoda would mop the floor with the Emperor and still have time to stop by the Muppet Show and ask Miss Piggy for a date...

 

Tremaniac, you're beginning to confuse me. Your posts made sense before, but now....

"Give me a level two thug and I'll kill Yoda".

Yeah, okay, maybe by subterfuge or other sneaky methods (maybe an Int 18 thug), but if you're suggesting that if you put said Level Two Thug on one side of an arena and Yoda on the other, you would have the thug kill Yoda? I mean, good lord, why not run some 4th level heros against Palpy and have them win? BECAUSE PALPY WOULD GRIND THEM TO DUST, THAT'S WHY.

I really don't understand your blatant denial of Kyle's abilities. For the last time, the reason a group of 6th level heros shouldn't be able to beat Kyle is because they are about 1/10th as experienced as he is. It's NOT because NPCs are UNGODLY strong, it's because 6th level heros are too weak (at the MOMENT) to face a foe as deadly as Katarn. Get said hero group to Level 10 and then have them take on Katarn. Four Level 10 heros could be a match for him, if played intelligently.

As for Kyle's unusual speed in learning to use the Force...

canon, he didn't have the abilities Force Absorb or Protection. He had the basic force abilities, healing and persuasion.

Still, that's pretty fast. But remember, it's not like most of the missions in JK happen the very next day or anything. Usually there's a few days, weeks, or even months in between. You can bet he isn't twiddling his thumbs in his off time. Also, remember that his powers are augmented by the Valley of the Jedi in Jedi Outcast.

I'm not being biased for Katarn. When people pointed out to me that 20 was too high a level, I compared him to other movie and EU character stats, and dumbed him down to what I thought fit well by comparison. I've had this topic running for a while on another message board, and this is what we came up with for Kyle, minus the stats/skills/etc.:

---------------------------
(End of Dark Forces) LV 6
Kyle Katarn, Rebel Agent

Fringer 1/Scout 2/Soldier 3
---------------------------
(End of Jedi Knight) LV 12
Kyle Katarn, Jedi Knight

Fringer 1/Scout 2/Soldier 4/Jedi Guardian 5
---------------------------
(End of Jedi Outcast) LV 16
Kyle Katarn, Reluctant Jedi

Fringer 1/Scout 2/Soldier 4/Jedi Guardian 7/Elite Trooper 2
---------------------------

Oh, and for Jan Ors:

Jan Ors, Mercenary

Tech Specialist 2/Scoundrel 2

 

Good guesses but, uhm, isn't "retards" a bit harsh?

 

If anyone is stupid enough to put a second level anything agianst even a 20th level D&D commoner they could be in for a world of hurt. No, I'm talking about using tactics. Smart plans, the right equipment, complete disregard for laws and civilians, and you've got a dangerous individual.
Now, you are outright equating levels with tactical ability. Players need 10 levels to beat him? Why? Because you made him some overpowering level. Now, were he a smart NPC, he could still have accomplished everything in the DF series and still be a reasonable enough level that shows low and mid level characters you can accomplish major things without being double digits in levels.
Maybe it's the fact that I can't get out of GM mode, but I want players to have a sense of significance and accomplishment. If they are still scraping the bottom of the barrel past 4th level I feel something is wrong. But then again even the presence of the lowest Jedi Padawan is enough to inspire people in my game.

 

My opinion is that Kyle Katarrn may have lost a good number of his Jedi levels when he was possessed by the Sith. Maybe the Sith switched his Jedi levels over to Sith levels and his redemption eradicated them.

Or perhaps it was the equivalent of a D&D level drain