Senate The rise of populism on the left and right - 1920s part 2?

How do you not mention Bitter Fruit when discussing United Fruit?

https://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-American-Guatemala-Expanded/dp/067401930X

 

Eh. The Co-Prosperity Sphere was expanding for its own reasons. The loss of American oil added new texture to that process, but didn't really drive it, to my view.

 

So, May in the UK, Trump in the US, next Le Pen in France?

 

If you think May is equal to Trump and Le Pen, you clearly know nothing about politics.

 

Do you want to actualy talk Daniel or just trade insults? Assuming it's the former:

Who said anything about her being equal? I simply place her as part of the trend, I didn't rank them.

She isn't pursuing a blatantly populist line on Brexit? Of course she is. What would you term it?

 

Why are you so hard on May here? While she does still have some things to learn, she's only served at her Majesty's Pleasure since July. I think she'll easily equal any of them.

 

Well, for me, my dissatisfaction with May is because in the very short space of time she's had she's already:

• Campaigned for remain and then become a massive Brexit convert with a level of zeal that's evangelical! .
• Given the go-ahead on Hinckley Point nuke plant when previously being critical of it.
• Heathrow expansion when her previous position, to her constituents, was she'd oppose it.
• Tried to short-circuit Parliamentary process on Article 50.

She didn't have much to do to be better than Cameron, given how he ended up, but she seems hellbent on becoming as bad or worse.

I'd agree with Daniel, if his point is that she isn't as toxic as either Trump or Le Pen, she isn't yet, but she is, to me, taking a populist line.

 

She is far from populist.

And, if May doesn't enact on the referendum result, Britain would be ungovernable.

 

Funny, Ender's opening post identifies Brexit as being populist, so as May implements that, what does that make her? She was also very quickly to decry elites as soon as she became PM too, another indicator.

The how of Brexit and the cost matters, unless you really think the referendum was a blank cheque for anything to be done at any cost.

People were sold Brexit that it would quick, cheap and easy - what happens when it isn't? What should be done then?

 

Marine can try and make herself the French Trompe all she wants. Not the same.

 

It makes you at least guilty of gross oversimplification or discussing matters on unsure technical grounds.

May was remain, we know this. She also ascended to the prime ministership after the Leave vote happened, and in a party that pledged to honour the results.

What actually would have happened had Hillary Clinton been elected is that the US, UK and Germany would have had a triumvirate of conservative female leaders and that would have arguably been a good bulwark against populism.

Instead, what happened was the guy whom people like Geert Wilders, Marie le Pen, Pauline Hanson, Nigel Farage et al think is sensible was voted to office by pandering to the lowest of the lowest common denominator - the Average American.

The message here is that even though arguably no other system could facilitate such a stunning upset (lol @ 1776), the populists on the right elsewhere ought get mobilised because "it's possible".

It's not, of course, but populists aren't that intelligent so they don't realise this.

You can tell though that Clinton = May with less dynamic shoes. Policy wise her and May and Merkel were very similar, and it the centre-right American "left" hated it when you pointed this out. Couldn't handle it. The dissonance was so real and not yet orange.

 

OK, I'll take the latter option Ender as it's more accurate.

Our mutual reliable news source summarises the Article 50 mess well:

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...te-trigger-brexit-process-taking-back-control

All the court case is really likely to do is slow things down and stop really stupid stuff like exiting the single market completely so why there was so much fury looks to indicate insecurity on the part of the Brexiteers, probably the nutcase fringe.

I suppose the Government's attempt to claim royal perogative ability to cut Parliament would technically be a constitutional matter? I was seeing it as being populist, as the other part of the argument being the popular vote, but as that doesn't appear to be correct I'm looking for the term that is.

EDIT: Forgot to include - then there's the weird sequence of events whereby Brexit encourages Trump and every other right-wing scumbag, Trump then gets in, giving other scumbags a bigger boost still. France is the next country with elections, so what was previously utterly nuts - a Le Pen presidency - no longer looks to be quite so.

Have that happen along with a chaotic result in the German elections too and Britain may not have to leave the EU because it'll already have gone to pot - or is too alarmist and couldn't possibly happen? It feels to me that all bets are off now.

 

Are there any real populists in the Britain?

 

Yes, but the British electoral system makes it near impossible for them to get elected. You have to appeal to the middle ground. i.e be sensible and moderate. It's why Farage has failed in seven attempts to become an MP in Britain.

 

No, we've all being making it up when we talk of UKIP.

Jedi Ben, populism is actually well defined on Wikipedia:

Populism is a political ideology that holds that virtuous citizens are mistreated by a small circle of elites, who can be overthrown if the people recognize the danger and work together. Populism depicts elites as trampling on the rights, values, and voice of the legitimate people

So, for example, the Brexit campaign absolutely was a populist one because the assumption was that the European 'elites' were allowing, for their own gain, for 'foreigners' to steal British jobs.

Corbyn, too, has surfed a wave of left wing populism to popular appeal.

As I see it, the Tories were split on the question of the EU. The Remainers are in charge, but with the election commitment to firstly have the vote then honour it, their hands are somewhat tied. It's not the right course of action, but in a democracy the whole vox populii vox dei thing kicks in and they're somewhat required to respect it.

 

My question was about populist elected officials. I know Farage was in Brussels but I wasn't sure about UKIP in the Commons. I knew they were anti-EU but wasn't sure if they were also anti-free trade.

 

Yes, and as Labour's leader is one and there's one UKIP member in the Commons, three in the Lords, and 22 MEPs.

Whilst Corbyn's populism is marching forward with two eyes firmly planted in the past, he's not at least a diabolic little racist. So there's that.

But he's also unlikely to win a general election with the PLP largely disliking him.

 

Corbyn is a populist? That seems a sop to get Scotland back is it not? To try and win back seats from SNP.

 

Yes, Corbyn and Sanders both are populist.

 

Who is Sanders?

 

Touche, sir.

 

Well, Wiki's definition is what I was going by and I had seen May as having become populist in her approach.

There's respecting the decision and there's an enthusiastic embrace of it, which I'd see May as having done with her approach on Article 50 and Parliament. Counter-point to that, I suppose, is May had to give the Tory right-wing something but reviving Liam Fox's career along with giving BoJo and David cabinet posts doesn't look good, unless the idea is they fight like cats in a sack and fail completely? Possible. As is the idea she's taking one line in public and another in private - she was thought to be this more moderate figure in the leadership election but once in office it doesn't seem to be working that way, but that could be a carefully cultivated public image.

Can't say I'm particularly concerned about Corbyn as Labour's engaged in eternal fratricide, so even in the mad, bad world we're now in, they're not getting in in 4 years unless they get their act together drastically and hell will probably freeze over first.

For May and everyone else, it's all going to get very messy when the impossibility of the trio of full imigration control, no payment to the EU and access to the single market is realised.

EDIT: This might be the best way for me to look at what May's been doing, in which case it probably doesn't qualify as populism, despite some window-dressing of it in speeches against elites and so on. END EDIT.

They were anti-EU but they loved the MEP expenses policy.

 

Oh so they're genuinely tossed up then?

 

'tossed up'? That's a new one for me.

Well, there is a close enough term for them, I suppose, but with a quite different yet appropriate meaning! ('tosser')

 

Tossed up as in confused or contradictory. They are anti-EU but love the MEP bennies.

You could say they are tossers too.