The rise of the occult, discussing paganism and its many branches.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Katana_Geldar, Mar 3, 2004.

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  1. Cobranaconda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2004
    star 7
    I know this seems a rather ridiculous question to ask, but, seeing as many of the Wicca here have stated that you were raised in a Catholic or Christian family. So what made you intrigued about Wicca and why did you choose to follow it?
  2. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I should probably be ashamed to admit this, but I basically had two initial sources of information about the craft. One was a pagan band I'd recently discovered whose music I really enjoyed. Their music emphasized the sense of freeness that comes from being pagan, the happiness that comes from not being shackled with the guilt that typically accompanies the western monotheistic religions and knowing you are at one with the living world. I thought some of the things described in their lyrics sounded very nice and I wanted to find out more about what they were. The other thing that piqued my interest, shamefully, was Harry Potter, a fandom I'd recently begun getting into. Those books don't represent the modern practice of witchcraft in a way that's even remotely realistic, but again, they served as a gateway for me in the sense that I was curious about what I'd read and wanted to learn more about what witchcraft really was.

    Essentially what happened was the more I learned about Wicca, primarily through reading books and scouring the internet, the more I realized I'd been a witch all my life without knowing it. I'd never realized before that there were other people in the world who could feel the wild calling to them the same way I could. It was a bit of an epiphany, if I can use that word in this context. All at once I began to understand why my attempts to make myself fit in with the monotheistic religions had always failed. That just wasn't what I was. This is.

    That article about the court order against parents teaching Wicca is disturbing on so many levels, btw. Okay, parents, no more exposing your kids to Baptism! I do not consider this religion mainstream enough, and my opinion shall be binding.
  3. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
  4. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    How is this even remotely constitutional?

    It's not. Expect this to be overturned on appeal, easy-peasy. I also wouldn't be surprised if the judge is kicked off of the bench for this-it's blatantly unConstitutional and way out of bounds.
  5. motisfortiva Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2005
    star 2
    it is a shame that people would attack such a harmless belief. why must they fear such things? is it because they cant understand? is it because they cant control it? is it because it is the truth for some people? or is it that they want as many minds open for their little christian mind-jack that they like to impose upon the minds of the innocent. im not one to single out a religion for their beliefs, yet i am one to point somthing out when they step out of line.

    it is just plain reprehensible on their part for thinking that they are right and others are wrong. there are many other branches of religion that coexist with others without conflict. to ban or single out any other religion, to me, is an act of desperation. they obviously fear dissent.

    i, myself, am a toltec. my heritage remains strong and will never fall to such a callous and trite offence. my ancestors came to near extinction by this kind of mentality. they simply came over and deemed everyone and everything satanic and either slaughtered or forcefully converted them. this to me is not a righteous.
  6. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    it is just plain reprehensible on their part for thinking that they are right and others are wrong.
    You probably do at some level.
  7. Tion_Meddon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4

    Even though I don't agree with Wiccan/pagan beliefs, it was only after doing some research on it and trying to understand it.

    Even though I don't agree with it, I still completely respect it, and I think it is stupid for people to fear/hate it.

    And it is extremely stupid of that judge to do that, that is completely unconstitutional, not allowing a kid's parents to teach him what they believe! Didn't he ever hear of the First Ammendment? That kind of case should never even occur in the world, especially in the US where there are laws against it, for anybody of any belief. It's outrageous.
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    And I predict we'll be seeing more and more of that very thing.
  9. Tion_Meddon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4

    Unfortunately, I agree.
  10. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    i, myself, am a toltec. my heritage remains strong and will never fall to such a callous and trite offence. my ancestors came to near extinction by this kind of mentality. they simply came over and deemed everyone and everything satanic and either slaughtered or forcefully converted them. this to me is not a righteous.

    That's understandable. My ancestors honored Nanih Waiya, "Inholitopa iski", as the Creator and earth mother. But then, anyone who knows about early American history knows what became of my ancestors and their people. Because of their religion and there way of life, they were labelled as heathen pagans and at one point slaughtered at will by union regiments and Euro freelancers alike.

    About the Indiana Superior Court Judge:
    I don't believe there is anyone here (save perhaps Bubba ;) j/k) who would not say this is a case of judicial activism. The issue of religion was not part of the divorce, he was not asked to hear the argument for or against it, and it was brought before him by a third party ("Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights"). There were no simply legal grounds for this ruling and no justification to warrant its insertion.

    Considering this :"Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University." I'd say the judge will see his order overturned in short order.

    I'd also like to remind everyone that "pagan" is not necessarily "wiccan". Pagan is a label used to identify anyone who does not worship Judeo-Christianity. Literally speaking, eastern religions are even considered to be pagan in the true definition of the word.

    Yes, we will likely see more of this, just as we have seen things like this in the past. Anti-majority religion-bashing seems to ebb and flow through the generations. As long as the First Ammendment is not overturned through the addition of a new ammendment, I'm confident that thelaw will ultimately prevail.

  11. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Pagan is anything not Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

    Seriously, I'm not worried about this particular case, because it's bound to be overturned. It's not just judicial activism, it's illegal.

    But in the long run, this is frightening.


  12. motisfortiva Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2005
    star 2
    You probably do at some level.

    yeah, its this little thing called 'self importance'. something i intend to rid myself of... completely.

    That's understandable. My ancestors honored Nanih Waiya, "Inholitopa iski", as the Creator and earth mother. But then, anyone who knows about early American history knows what became of my ancestors and their people. Because of their religion and there way of life, they were labelled as heathen pagans and at one point slaughtered at will by union regiments and Euro freelancers alike.

    i wansnt trying to play the 'native american card'. i just am. as i have stated in another thread: im a mixed with just about everything under the sun.

    so, racially im am in no way biased, nor do i adhere to a set ideal or belief. as i have said, i am toltec. i am Nagual. no if, ands, or buts about it.

    And I predict we'll be seeing more and more of that very thing.

    you are correct. dont sound so upset.

    Unfortunately, I agree.

    its ok. do not frett. the world isnt going anywhere. what i, or anyone else thinks, shouldnt matter. last time i checked, this was all in good fun.

    Seriously, I'm not worried about this particular case, because it's bound to be overturned. It's not just judicial activism, it's illegal.But in the long run, this is frightening.

    yes, it is. are people really that worried about what they believe in?
  13. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    What does Wicca teach?

    Wicca is essentially a reconstruction of Celtic pagan beliefs, albeit viewed through the lens of modern morality. I think if I had to summarize it, I would do it like so:

    1. Respect all living creatures, as well as the natural rise and fall of the life cycle. Death is as natural as birth is, and you can't embrace one while scorning the other. Everything you see in life eventually undergoes the same cycle of rise and fall.

    2. You may not harm any person or other living creature. Harm includes physical, mental, or emotional damage. If you try to follow this guideline, you'll find that it's actually quite a difficult one to adhere to. In every situation you end up in, you must assess for yourself how to cause the least amount of harm possible for everyone involved.

    3. All things in the universe are interconnected. We as humans should never allow ourselves to become arrogant and think the world revolves around us, because we are just one cog in the huge, magnificent machine that is our world.

    4. Nature has both male and female aspects. These are often personified as the God and the Goddess, or the Lord and Lady. Interestingly enough, if you look back through pagan traditions from different times and different parts of the world, they often had similar ideas about the God and Goddess and represented them in similar ways. The God, for example, is often portrayed with horns. That might have been a phallic or fertility symbol. Also, a large-busted, round-bellied woman often appears as a symbol of female fertility. Wiccans would say the fact that similar ideas have recurred so often through human history suggests there is some universal truth to them.

    5. Witches, unlike Christians, believe that they have innate power. Christianity says that the only way to accomplish things in life is ask for divine intervention and wait and see if you get it or not. Wicca says that every living creature, every mind, has a little piece of the creative power of the deities within it. For that reason, you yourself are capable of setting your own changes into motion. This practice is called magick. If you wish to help a sick person heal, bring happiness to a friend, or make the world a better place in any other way, you have the power to set these changes in effect yourself by doing magick and setting your own mind to accomplishing the task.
  14. motisfortiva Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2005
    star 2
    do as thou wilt, an it harm none. :D i think thats it. its been so long.
  15. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    motisfortiva, I'll explain how you can't rid yourself of it.
    I believe that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins. Do you agree?
  16. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
  17. Cobranaconda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2004
    star 7
    Pagan is anything not Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

    Actually, Pagan is old English for villager. Villagers didn't convert to Chritianity, so they tried to kill them all.
  18. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    That's that Christian love for you. [face_mischief]
  19. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    I didn't ask that to talk about Christianity. I asked that to prove a point.
  20. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    And which point was that?


  21. motisfortiva Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2005
    star 2
    my point is that it is entirely possible to rid ones self of importance. i never said anthing about ridding myself of self worth.

    i have learned to observe everything as equal. to me, there is no argument. no one thing is more important than the next. this is my art.
  22. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Besides, 'tis not so logical to attempt to rebut a pagan's assertion about paganism using an argument taken from Christianity.

    Beware, or one of these days I might start posting in some of those Christian threads, spouting pagan propaganda in an attempt to prove your religion "wrong." :p
  23. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    My intention was not to spread Christian ideas. I'm confused by the thought of not thinking that you are right and others are wrong. Here's whrere I was going:

    motisfortiva, you think that I am wrong that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins. You will always think thst you are right and others are wrong, even if you don't have self importance. I get somewhat of what you are trying to say. As for everything being equal, it's new to me. Could you explain it better?
  24. motisfortiva Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2005
    star 2
    motisfortiva, you think that I am wrong that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins.

    i never said anything of the sort. i was raised christian, and this will always be a part of me. i dont suppose you've noticed how i try my best to stay away from the christian threads? i know of god, and i know what was done for us. i also know that it is important not to dwell in the past.

    i really dont want to get into a theistic debate. i will say this though: jesus gave us some pretty good pointers. i feel that impeccability is not reserved for the holy. i believe even jesus would attest to that. impeccability is simply the proper use of energy.

    im not saying that im a perfect angel right now, but at least i try. i have a long road ahead of me... the path with a heart. one does not need to be christian to know god. nor does one need to adhere to any set brand of beliefs.

    You will always think thst you are right and others are wrong, even if you don't have self importance.

    with all things being equal, how so? i have no intention of proving anyone wrong. the opinions of others are always just that... opinions. i could sit here and agree with someone all day and it still wouldnt amount to a hill-o-beans.

    we all have our own views. we all have our own way of doing things. so there is no point in thinking we can change the universe throgh idle conversation.

    As for everything being equal, it's new to me. Could you explain it better?

    this is a finding when one becomes a seer. its a practice that involves, oddly enough, talking to small plants. :p for some it takes years to master this. this is the mastery of the first attention. to purge the island of the tonal. i would get more in depth about it but it would probably take years to explain it all. [face_laugh] not without falling into a quagmire of contradictions.

    anyways, as a seer, i look at things as equally important, thus making things unimportant. do not think that i dismiss everything as worthless or petty. this is not what this means. it means that i have an openess and certainty with everything i see. this opens up the road to knowledge for me.

    as ive said before in other threads: i am here to understand each and all. right or wrong, it doesnt matter. i find all views useful even if not totally correct. every idea is like another peice of the puzzle for me.



  25. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    Too comfusing. I'll try to understand one thing at a time. About opinions, you are saying that people treat opinions like facts?
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