The rise of the occult, discussing paganism and its many branches.

"has been made to appear that the belief was that he was the bull, and now it seems it's been further twisted from a bull to a lamb."

Bull - Taurus
Lamb - Aries

The constellations appear to move backwards along the about one degree every 70 or so years.

 

I'd really love to see statistics about what Jesus talks about. When he refers to hell, he talks more about the behaviors that will lead one there -- greed, dishonesty and the like. They are tools of the Dark One, and his means to destroy people.

Right, but He never goes without giving the way out of it: faith in Him. In doing so He says He's the only way, and EVERYONE will end up in hell who doesn't have that.

 

that's what I like about Wicca, there is no only way. there is no dogma, and women are equal or even greater to men. ever heard of the Dianic?

someone around here is praying for me and i want them to stop.
I know because I've been pursues three times by christians, one was a missionary at uni, one was an old man outside a book shop and the other was a pamphlet left in my mum's shop which i accidentally read and then tore up.

i know you would say that god is pursuing me, rather that person's prayer, their will is pursuing me and it's getting annoying!

The constellations appear to move backwards along the about one degree every 70 or so years.

speaking of constelations and planets, that new planet they found the other day is really going to stuff things up for astrologers, i guess it
s up to what they name it.

 

As if Orion, Cetus, Auriga, and Ophiuchus weren't gronking things up for astrologers already


They called it Sedna, after the Inuit sea-goddess.

The constellations appear to move backwards along the ECLIPTIC about one degree every 70 or so years.
...now, why didn't I see that?

 

someone around here is praying for me and i want them to stop.
I know because I've been pursues three times by christians, one was a missionary at uni, one was an old man outside a book shop and the other was a pamphlet left in my mum's shop which i accidentally read and then tore up.

You really believe it works like that? Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but thats seriously one of the saddest and scariest things I've ever heard. And I'll tell you right now that I'm definately gonna pray for you.

~Ganner

 

There have been occult branches of most of the major religions, some such as the Qabala still being practiced. Is this perhaps because one purpose of religion is to explain the unexplainable, including the hidden? Maybe paganism is on the rise because people are no longer content with the answers provided by the mainstream religions. From talking to my fellow pagans at the Pagan Federation meets most of them were attracted by the more individualistic and spiritual side of their chosen path - in other words, they didn't like being preached to and told what to believe.

Prayer is not that far removed from magic - both involve calling on a higher power to assist in one's effort. Some would perhaps see praying for someone who does not wish to receive any prayers an infringement upon a person's rights. If someone voices opposition is it right to pray for them against their will? Does it really matter one way or another?

 

If someone voices opposition is it right to pray for them against their will? Does it really matter one way or another?

Those are pretty loaded questions.

I didn't mean to de-rail the thread with my post. It probably shoulda been a PM.

 

Yes, but how many ways are there to arrive at faith in Jesus?

I believe he is worthy of faith. He was the kindest, most compassionate man who ever lived...well, except if you were an evil dude. When combined with the prophecies of others who existed thousands of years earlier and could not possibly know what form they would take, it is enough to believe he is God. At the same time, I do not believe the Bible as written is the complete word of God. It was written down by humans, who have their own biases. It was intended to be the word of God, but did not survive as such.

As for the pagans who were destroyed in ancient times...well, a great deal of them practiced human sacrifice, unlike today's much more sensible pagans. Some of them even fed their own children to Molech's altars. If you ask me, people who kill their own children in the service of ANY god need a cruise missile upside the head.

I seem to remember that Jesus once drove the money changers out of the Temple with a cat'o nine tails. He did not hurt any humans in that venture, just the evil that they were polluting the Temple with.

 

Prayer is not that far removed from magic - both involve calling on a higher power to assist in one's effort. Some would perhaps see praying for someone who does not wish to receive any prayers an infringement upon a person's rights.

Well, you're talking directly to God when you're praying. When you're doing magic, you don't know who you're dealing with. I wouldn't mess with magic in any form. It could be anything that you're conjuring up, any spirit roaming around. But I do agree that if someone wants you to stop praying for them then you should stop. Especially if they ask you to. Jesus wouldn't force himself on anyone or cram his message down another's throat.

 

When you're doing magic, you don't know who you're dealing with. I wouldn't mess with magic in any form. It could be anything that you're conjuring up, any spirit roaming around.

prayer is a form of magic particularly when you pray for someone. imagine this, you wish to pray for someone (like a misguided heathen like me ) the prayer becomes your will and will is very powerful, by praying to the divine it gives or forces that will to someone else, this depends on your intention of your prayer.

your perception of magic is a little misguided, magic or magick as i like to call it is really an elaboration of a prayer. you use tools, materials, libations and incantations and above all you have intent which is central for those who wish to do good by all.
Magic is not calling up demons and spirits to bend them to your will, performing animal sacrifices and hexing and cursing people. Do you realise that what we do, be it in the physical or metaphysical has consequence? by telling you this, it has a conseqence, by starting this thread it has a consequence. harming someone causes not only a conseqence on the person you cast the spell on it rebounds threefold upon yourself.


if you wish to pray for me, think about what you are really doing. and praying for someone against their will is a form of manipulation. i beleive there are many paths to finding faith, trying to explain the unexplainable. again, if you want to pray for me, don;t do it in the manipulative sense as this will impact on you

Jesus wouldn't force himself on anyone or cram his message down another's throat.

even if he doesn't do this, his followers and clergy do. they claim that their way of faith is the only way and members are usually not given choice if they wish to follow. paganism is a chosen path, it is not forced upon anyone which is why we don't convert others, unlike some christian sects which i won't mention.
I have no problem with Jesus' message of love, compassion for others and finding friendshipwith enemies. but i do have a problem with things like "The onyl way to heaven is through me" and that stuff

whoa! what a mouthful! i feel a bit like i'm being searched for witch marks here! thanks to my supporters for backing me up regardless of faith

 

prayer is a form of magic particularly when you pray for someone. imagine this, you wish to pray for someone (like a misguided heathen like me ) the prayer becomes your will and will is very powerful, by praying to the divine it gives or forces that will to someone else, this depends on your intention of your prayer.

I do think that people can even will things without even praying, like willing it on a psychic level. They probably don't even realize they are doing this either. Yes, you have brought up some very good points. Prayer can be used wrongfully, and can be abused just as anything else can. That's why it has to be in accordance to God's will. Even if you are a Christian, you have to know if it is your will or God's will. Many Christians abuse their spiritual power, and they do have it. Not to upset anyone here, but prayer does work. It is better to pray for someone to receive blessings, then you in return receive blessings also. If you want someone to know Christ then pray for them about this, yet in a gentle manner and ask in a way so that God's will be done, not yours. Jesus often prayed to God like this..."your will be done, not mine". He was meaning God's will.

your perception of magic is a little misguided, magic or magick as i like to call it is really an elaboration of a prayer. you use tools, materials, libations and incantations and above all you have intent which is central for those who wish to do good by all.

I suppose we all talk to God in one form or another. To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about the "magic arts". I'm probably terming it wrong too. It's easy to generalize magick which is what I probably just did! I think the bottom line is (now that I think about it), is do you want to know who you are praying to on a personal level? As far as I know, the Christian faith is the only one that claims you can know God personally and have a personal friendship with him. Not that he is the only way to spirituality, because we all have it, but that Christ is the only way you are going to bypass karma, which will be used to judge you during the final judgement at the end of the world, Karma. Because of his sacraficial death, Karma doesn't matter. What you have done in this life, or other lives (if there are any), curses on your soul, etc, you have eternal life and will not be judged according to karma, or the threefold rule, etc. because of Christ sacraficial death to bypass all of that.

if you wish to pray for me, think about what you are really doing. and praying for someone against their will is a form of manipulation.

I was going to elaborate on this earlier. I do think that prayers can be manipulative and even harmful if the intent is a form of control, or based on jealousy or there is underlying hatred behind that prayer. Everyone has a spiritual nature and you have to ask yourself if it is in accordance to God's will.

 

To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about the "magic arts".

Let me enlighten you...


Magick is finding your connection to the Earth and all that is natural, alive and moving in the universe! It binds all that exists together.
Magick is living in balance with the flow of life, and knowing that you are a vital force within that flow. Magick is everywhere! In the trees, rain, stars, and in the sea. It is the spark that quickens a seed to rise up from the soil.
Magick is laughter, joy, wonder and truth of the world around us!
It is the subtle enchantment that reminds us not to waste a single moment of this gift that we call life! Magick is not greed, or power, or pretence...It is real. It exists. And it works.
Magick is the mystery that lies in the secret soul of the world. It is the essence of creation. What we imagine, we have the power to create!
MAGICK IS WITHIN YOU...
With it you can create your dreams, heal your world, love your life and find the peace that lives in every human heart.



Magick happens, but magick doesn't just happen

and as for your arguement on Karma you are taking a quite buddhist stance on it

here 's a more better arguement on threefold

The Law of Threefold Return basically states that whatever you do returns to you threefold, good or ill. Karma is the manifestation of that law in action. It isn't punishment, because it is simply a balancing out of what you have earned. Similar to "as you sow, so shall you reap" or "what comes around, goes around". This Law also states that you are bound to return good with good, and ill with ill, but there are people who don't believe in that and don't practice it.

i suppose if i did something bad, like killed someone and then bad things started to happen to me you'd say it was god punishing me. why have the notion of a punishing, vengeful god when there are so many bad things in this world already? and why have the notion that this world is a place of evil, as some beleive, and that we are all sinners by nature when there are so many wonderful things happen all the time in the world around us?

honestly some christian idelogies don't make any sense to me. and don't get me started on how the eucharist is similar to pagan ritual

 

"i suppose if i did something bad, like killed someone and then bad things started to happen to me you'd say it was god punishing me. why have the notion of a punishing, vengeful god when there are so many bad things in this world already? and why have the notion that this world is a place of evil, as some beleive, and that we are all sinners by nature when there are so many wonderful things happen all the time in the world around us?"

No offense, but this is what I simply do not get about pagans. From what I've seen, they seem to have this philosophy that if you don't like a certain belief for whatever reason, just toss it and make up your own. Doesn't matter how true either belief is, as long as you're comfortable believing in it.

That really makes no sense to me. If something is true, how can you do anything BUT embrace it, no matter how much you may not like the idea of it?

 

From what I've seen, they seem to have this philosophy that if you don't like a certain belief for whatever reason, just toss it and make up your own. Doesn't matter how true either belief is, as long as you're comfortable believing in it.
are you aware that many christian traditions are based on paganism? (read my first post for more info)
If something is true, how can you do anything BUT embrace it, no matter how much you may not like the idea of it?

but there are many different versions of the truth! the truth is not simply "is" it takes forms, pervesions and interpretations. any one who has studied history would sympathise with me.

perhaps i should bring out the elephant

gimme a moment

 

Describing the Elephant

Three blind men were once asked to describe an elephant. The first, running his hands over the elephant's ears, said, "elephants are like a big leathery dish." The second, running his hands over the trunk, said, "No, how wrong you are. An elephant is like a snake!". The third, feeling the elephant's leg, said "I don't know what you two are talking about, an elephant is like a big, strong tree trunk."

Application: Point of view, perspective, conflict - often our disagreements are the result of seeing the same thing in different ways.

Application: Truth, knowledge - in many ways we human beings resemble those blind people describing an elephant. The knowledge any of us possess is at best partial, meaning it is important to listen and learn from each other.

Application: Revelation, religion - in the end all the blind people had an grossly inaccurate perspective. When it comes to religious truth all religions of the world have something to say, even insights into God, but without a word of revelation from God we are all groping in the dark.



Source: rewritten from an unknown source.


sourced from [/linkhttp://users.bigpond.net.au/brocy/]http://users.bigpond.net.au/brocy/[/link]

another useful article for you

Why my Religion is right and yours is wrong!

 

Having been a history major i would have to say its a little hard to know "the truth" regarding religion being as there are no primary sources or quotes from god(sorry the bible, koran, torah, etc...wouldnt be considered primary sources).

 

are you aware that many christian traditions are based on paganism? (read my first post for more info)

Sorry, I meant neo-pagans. Regardless, I disagree about Christianity beind "based" off paganism. I don't disagree that on the surface they may appear alike in certain areas, but Christianity isn't founded on pagan beliefs. At least not Christianity in its true form (during the apostles' ministry).

but there are many different versions of the truth! the truth is not simply "is" it takes forms, pervesions and interpretations. any one who has studied history would sympathise with me.

But I have known people who were formerly Christians who converted to neo-paganism because they didn't like a certain belief. Whereas before they converted for a long time they had preached that belief as if it were true. Or they had at least acknowledged that they believed the Bible was completely true.

Also, my main point was that you asked why Christians believe in a God like that. My post was sort of in answer to that, saying if I believe something is true, I'm not going to just forget it altogether just because I'm not comfortable with it.

 

But I have known people who were formerly Christians who converted to neo-paganism because they didn't like a certain belief. Whereas before they converted for a long time they had preached that belief as if it were true. Or they had at least acknowledged that they believed the Bible was completely true.

This is a consequence of faith. Religion and belief require faith because they involve profound concepts that cannot be adequately proven to secure them as facts. However, faith requires a person to voice their beliefs as facts in order to avoid the trap of doubt. Imho, people have to be comfortable with all aspects of their belief in order to not become disillusioned.

Neo-paganism puts great emphasis on the self and the reason that people "do their own thing" is because the self is the only truth and we all connect to the "absolute truth" in a variety of individualistic ways. Suppose you could say that the self relates to the holy spirit in that it is the only part of us that is truly aware. Hence, imho, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan or Odinist, etc. etc., we are all essentially working towards a similar "perfection". There are many different religions because there are many different selfs (sic.) - the religions themselves breaking down into different denominations/churches/schools of thought.

Neo-paganism is not unique in its variations, just that there is a wider variety of options, some of which seem perhaps a little new age, strange and even humourous. Most are based on age old concepts with "new age" branches focusing heavily on Chi/energy.

 

I've always viewed "NeoPaganism" with a rather critical eye. It's not that in my mind, they stand apart as a group worthy of persecution to any degree, but many that I have encounted have not been impressive. I believe a genuine religious experience has to come from deep intuition, observation, and practice. I think it a tragedy when people just read about cultures and pick and choose aspects to include in their own theologies.

That's not to say, of course, that all pagans are included in that critique; many, if not most, are not.

 

The title of this thread is confused in itself.

The author seems to be confusing Paganism (the worship of nature in the form of deities and the feminine) and the occult.

The occult is a blurring of the lines between true Paganism and the darker side of Christianity. Devil worship, for example is a direct result of the Christian faith.

 

I don't know much about Wicca/Neopaganism, and would like to know more. Could any of you recommend some general education Pagan sites?

 

The occult is a blurring of the lines between true Paganism and the darker side of Christianity. Devil worship, for example is a direct result of the Christian faith.

Occult simply means "unseen" or "hidden", it does not imply devil worship (or any dark side) at all. Neopagan belief systems such as Wicca do indeed involve occult rituals on many occasions, much of which Gerald Gardner derived from the teachings of the Golden Dawn.

 

Sithgoblin, try these:

Witches Voice

Neopagan Basics

Children of Artemis

 

Occult simply means "unseen" or "hidden"...

I'm aware of the literal meaning of the term. I was just pointing out the confusion the term brings with it when associated with Paganism, an older faith, especially when used in the same sentence as the term Paganism.

 

My mistake, I suppose when I hear "Paganism", I automatically think of the modern equivalent before the older religions come to mind.