Amph The role of women in sci-fi and fantasy

typically a woman's role in a hero's journey plays second fiddle to the dood. when she is the main character her journey is different. it has been explained by campbell and others that a woman does not need to take the journey a man does, she is already there eg. she gets her period which is symbolic for womanhood, she is already close to godhood. man has to journey the unknown and come out the other side to achieve that kind of status. the argument should be why cant a woman go on this journey as well? its only recently that woman have been able to be seen in this type of role. say what you want but buffy and xena have done more for women in literature than we can imagine.

 

Females predominate the cast of Sean Willams and Shane Dix's novels.

 

I'll keep talking about science fiction because that's what I know.

I agree with those who said that science fiction (and without I refer to the fiction that has really some science in it) if written by geek for geeks. I'm one of those geeks and I'm not ashamed of it.

Few times in my life I've been so moved by a book as when in 2010: Odyssey II Clarke started to describe Leonov/Discovery's change of orbit in technical terms... I was a physics student at that time and my first thought was: This guy is writing for ME!

But, being a professional scientist (or that I like to think ) I know the reality of the people I work with.

Let me tell you a tale.

A couple of years ago, I was taking a post-graduated class. Post-graduated means here where I live that only people with 6 years of college and a title can asist. There where 12 persons in that class, mainly engineers and a few physicist like me. The point is, all the 12 of us were females. Blame the odds, whatever. The guy who had to teach that class was really scared, and that is not a joke.

 

Goldie, you hit it right on the head. men basically fear women. not in the she will beat me up kind of way but like they fear the power we possess. i use the terms men and women in a general sense. why do you think that professor was scared? i have always been a strong intelligent woman and i seem to frighten most men, maybe threaten is a better word. my husband is one of the few men not intimidated by me. he just lets me be me. he knows i am wrapped around his little finger because he doesnt get in my way. if men just let us use our gifts the world would be better for it. we compliment each other for a reason.

 

he knows i am wrapped around his little finger because he doesnt get in my way.

I must say that being wrapped around someone's finger is not a good thing.

Personally, when I write I enjoy writing for both men and women. I find that while in most stories I write the main character can be a man or a woman, there are some subtle differences that enrich the story.

 

Statistically, I've found men will main character males, women will main character women.

 

That's true statistically. Women and men have enough trouble understanding each other in real life as it is, so it's usually easier for a writer to write what he or she knows. That's why most debut novels certainly have a main character who is the same sex as the author, although there are many exceptions.

Often a woman is accused of pandering to a largely male readership, if her books *don't* have a female main character. However, rare is the male author who has a believable female main character, especially in science-fiction...

 

I've often wondered what the male:female ratio of sci fi/fantasy is.

 

Me too. It has to be said, that even though Anne McCaffrey is a soft sf/romance author, about half of the members who visit the websites her fans run are male.

 

Because male and female thinking follow different paths to arrive to a solution to a problem. He was afraid to not be able to keep with us.

Story of my life. I had to marry another physicist.

Where I live (Southamerica), I'll say 10:1. I don't know in other places. Even other women with professions akin to mine are not interested in SF here.


Do you want another story?

I was taking this electronics class where about 30% of the class were females. One day the odds were that not even one girl asisted (the theoretical classes were pretty lame and not mandatory. Studying from the book was much more productive). The professor (I was told) said when he noticed: "Great! Today we'll have a good class!"

 

Speaking of Dynamite's new Red Sonja comic, and the mention of that metal bikini, it is mentioned a few times in the story by people that she encounters how it does little to protect both her herself and her modesty. Her response is "Men are easily distracted, most of them never even notice my sword until their heads roll off their necks". Throughout the first arc of the series, she has had to fend off numerous advances from all kinds of men, it's almost a crucial aspect of the character.

On a flipside to that facet is another character in comics, Artesia (written by Mark Smylie and published by Sirius Entertainment, now published under Archaic Studios Press). This character is a woman sleeps with many a man during the story, either for political or social gain, but mostly for pleasure (or distraction as in the latest arc). Artesia is the daughter of a witch burnt at the stake, and inhabits a world on the cusp of the early modern period yet where gunpowder has been foregone for magic and enchantments. As the leader of an army of mercenaries she's a formidable warrior like Red Sonja.

Which of these representations of warrior women written by men do women find more palatable? In both cases the female demonstrates significant power through sex, either by refusing it or by embracing it as a tool. Does the latter become a whore, the former a feminist? Or does the former represent a woman's fears, and the latter freedom?

 

As always, it depends on the woman. Personally, I tend to prefer women who aren't afraid of using their femininity and sexuality in a positive way. As long as she enjoys it herself, and isn't just trading sexual services for something else. Ideally, of course, even a heroine could look ordinary yet do extraordinary things. Some male heroes are handsome, but few use that sexual power as one of their "weapons". However, repressing female sexuality solves nothing, it just turns women into quasi-men or sexless creatures, neither of which is ideal.

 

If it's relevant to the plot . . . perhaps. Perhaps not. Many are the novels with sex and filth, and I view that as cheap gratification for readers. Males. What do women think?

What's the point, anyway? A quick ****? It's but a handful of words; a paragraph or two. What do you get out of this, and for orginality's sake, at least show the man raped or engaged against consent rather than alwasy the woman.

 

I guess that's why we differ, I don't see sex in books as inherently filthy. Unfortunately not many writers, and especially genre writers, are good at writing sex without making it look cheap. Sex isn't always non-consensual, even in books. Occasionally, relating a person's horrible past experiences is a way of explaining why she (or much more rarely he) behaves as she does. Sex is human behavior after all, and I see no reason why science-fiction books or any others should try to pretend it doesn't exist.

 

For the Kushiel trilogy, it's who she is and makes the books what they are. Martin shows all mannare of rape, incest and carnal acts, but it's prosed with a humourous style and abbreviated in nature. But to throw in a sex moment just for a moment, what the hey, that's what I take issue with. And really, it's alienating your readers. I can't see ladies appreciating the one-sidedness of it.

 

This is true, but I think it's done because his novels are meant to mirror, in some ways our own past. It's not just there but not acknowledged either, it does play into the story and character development in the second and third book. It may go further in the next series as the PoN trilogy only really resolves the current situation and sets up big changes to come.

 

Martin shows all mannare of rape, incest and carnal acts, but it's prosed with a humourous style and abbreviated in nature.

No. Youre completely wrong there. Martin has always showed just how horrible war is as he has always been against war and violence. He was, afterall, a conscientious objector in Vietnam

 

Oh, I know. I was just saying, for all his filth, he writes it in a comical sense, not a serious way, and that's quite commendable. There are many authors who torture their characters in all manner of sadistic mental and physical ways, and I dislike that. It looks deliberate, and thus artificial, whereas Martin shows his stuff more lighthanded.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. He has a dark sense of humor but I wouldn't say he downplays the violence in his stories.

 

Take Uswyk's joke about the Mountain, raping that tavern wench, that Arya overhears at Harrenhal in book 2. It's a really long paragraph. True to Martin, it's yet another vile act in a long list of Lannister and allies pillaging. But he always shows the night side of war and soldier cruelity humourously, and this was a no less funny, the way she flopped, the way Mountain requested his dollar back, she wasn't that worth it, the tapcafe's father thanking him for the custom, patronage, anyway.

By rights, after a thousand unedited nipple references by then, I should have said, hmmmm. But its cavalier presentation just had me laughing along.

 

Hmm... it's not Martin that presents the incident in a cavalier manner but Uswyk. It tells us a significant amount about his character and that of the Mountain, and the kind of people Arya has to hang around. I'm appalled that the scene had you laughing like the rest of Clegane's men.

I think you're overexaggerating the filth too, and apart from fat pink masts and giants of Lannisters they aren't really written with that much knowing humour. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you though.


What are people's thoughts on a character like Barbarella?

 

First off, I don?t mean to come across as sexist in this point.

I'll say more later, hopefully, but the first thing that comes to mind with the role of women in fantasy at least is that there are some roles they simply aren't equipped to play. Men are on average naturally a little physically stronger than the average woman. You'll find plenty of exceptions to that rule in real life and in fiction, but the top-end strength of a man is going to be higher than the top-end strength of a woman. And that rules out the Knight-in-Shining-Armor or Barbarian Warrior sort of role for most women. Once again, I repeat, there are exceptions, but lets face it: the character of Conan works better for most people than the character of Red Sonja. Woman written as melee fighting types generally tend to be Mary Sues in my opinion. The only positive exceptions tend to be when they?re bulked up for the role (Brienne from ASOIAF comes to mind) or when they have some sort of magic on their side (Aayla Secura of Star Wars is a prime example).

So, in general women take less physical roles. Good thing or bad thing, it?s just the way that they?ve been written. Women as archers, diplomats and fast talkers, mages of various sorts, assassins, etc, those are roles that they get a lot, and that they can work in.

 

Oh, I was appalled, at first. I was relatively fairly knew to fantasy when I read Martin 2yrs ago. I would have bought him sooner, but I saw teat on the first preview page and thought otherwise. I don't remember why I bought Game of Thrones later. First read was all a blur, and a fever didn't help matters. I was not in a position to analyse whilst reading as I now usually do.

I initially found all the carnal activities reprehensible; Clash of Kings was utterly replete with it. By then I realised Martin had a serious nipple fetish: metaphors, euphisms, endless description, it wouldn't end. Nipple nipples nipples.

But I found myself becoming nonchalant. My disgust softened less and less. The rape and pillaging, whilst showe, wasn't prolonged in detail as many other authors are wont to do; even better, his prose style bordered on the comical.

I laughed along with Uswyk's tale. I laughed along with Theon awakening from a nightmare whose woman he was doing had teeth below. I laughed my Vaders off at Storm of Sword's hilariously written prologue. I laughed at Robb because I knew his destiny---and his lack of a pov was a dead giveaway. Besides, you saw the hag's vision that Tom Sevenstrings paid with a song.

Why?

Because I found Martin's secret code.

His secret code that reveals to me who will win in the "trilogy." I'm talkin' 'bout the book 2 and book 3b future visions, that have thus far come true. Whenever someone wins too much, be it long term battle or short term fight, he suddenly reverses at the last moment. Robb, Red Viper, Bron/Egan, Hound/Dondarrion---I was right on the Mara.

It's not real, all the filth and all, so why should I really care? I enjoyed the ride. I knew Tyrion was going to lose Shae. All I needed to do was read another 1200 pages, and I did, and I was right. His Key was mine. Whether I can open his door only a few years will tell.

 

I's just like to add that one of my favourite authers David Weber who is possibly the best military science fiction writer has no problem with including females in his various series the main one being the Harrington series where the main character is female and indeed the militaries and general societies in his novels appear almost 50-50 in males/females.

I believe that as stated earlier in the topic this is more a problem with Fantasy than Sci Fi, most new Sci Fi doesn't have this problem, perhaps because technology is the big equaliser. But in Fantasy you may still come accross the fact that there is a difference between men and women that without technology or distance to alter things might mean the females would be weaker in say a swordfight so 99% of the soldiers would be men.

 

do men think women have to be a fighting warrior? they usually seem to write them so they act like men but with boobs. what i think is hilarious is the art. all the women have huge hooters, tiny tiny waists, big pouty lips, and round buttocks.
a club i sponsor, i teach in a high school, puts on the ugly homecoming(the boys dress like girls, girls dress like boys0 you can always tell what the boy likes in a girl because he emulates it. it is hysterical.