The Roll of the Dice: Fall of the Republic, Fall of the Jedi

Interesting question here for debate, posting as a new topic since I haven't seen it mentioned yet.

Did Qui Gon Jinn set into motion the events that led to the downfall of the Republic and Jedi by force manipulating the roll of the dice when he took Watto on his bet for either Anakin or Shmi? And by so doing did he not go against the will of the force, even though he claimed it was the will of the force that led him to Anakin?

Personally, I think the manipulation of the roll made his entire argument of the will of the force moot. If indeed it was the will of the force he wouldn't have had to do such. Especially considering throughout TPM he was lecturing Obi Wan on how the force should not be used wantonly in manipulating events. I don't know why some in this community hold Qui Gon in such high esteem. He messed with the force and it balanced him out, and then consequently the rest of the Jedi, and well in the finality of it.... The force. (though I still think that whether or not the force attained balance at the end of RotJ is debatable).

 

I agree. Please check out my "New Theory" about the "true origins" of Anakin and Luke. It supports a lot of this. You know why people hold Qui Gon in such high esteem? Because they don't or can't accept the fact that their heroes are flawed and they only choose to see what they see on the surface and not underneath. Qui Gon Had to learn too and you're right, I don't even know if the force is in balance by the end of ROTJ. In my gut and knowing what I know now, I don't think so. The whole retaining identity thing and immortality...something shaky and unnatural about it.

 

It officially is in balance. Whether or not you want to accept it is up to you but it's official.

I however do agree that Qui-Gon likely violated the Force's Will at that point. However, the common argument is that Watto's die was weighted so Qui-Gon merely gave it the shove necessary to counteract Watto's own cheating. I'm not sure I completely buy that though.

 

The force itself does not directly interfere in matters such as these - if it did there would be no need for the Jedi.

The Jedi listen to the force's will and have to carry out its commands. That's all Qui Gon did. He believed the will of the force was telling him to free Anakin and train him to be a Jedi so he did what he had to do to achieve that.

The fall of the Jedi was down to the cunning and manipulation of Darth Sidious. It was the Sith that caused the imbalance by plagueing the galaxy with evil through the dark side of the force.

 

QFT.

 

Exactly. I know that contradicts what I said yesterday but well, I was tired.

 

Hmmm... I don't know if I can accept the fact that Qui Gon was the only Jedi who could intuit what exactly the will of the force was, and yet the -Jedi Council members- could not, especially when in the end it did lead to the downfall of the whole Jedi Order. Suggesting otherwise would just lead to some crazy conclusion that the Force is not only semi sentient but also a vindictive nature of the Star Wars universe. While Sidious does deserve his due credit in the destruction of the Jedi, it wouldn't have come into fruition as it did had it all not started with the roll of that dice.
I can't swallow the argument that "The Jedi listen to the force's will and have to carry out its commands" argument, as like I said before, the roll of the dice was the one instance where Qui Gon did decide to use the force to manipulate events to his favor. Not only that but again, the whole rest of the council did not agree with him (and I have to wonder how they would have reacted had they known just what scruples Qui Gon dropped to have Anakin face the council to begin with). And again, I must mention that many times Qui Gon chastised Obi Wan about not using the force so wantonly, then turns around and does it himself.
The roll of the dice scene always left me with a strange vibe, and while I realise the "force itself does not directly interfere in matters such as these" you have to wonder why Qui Gon didn't simply have faith in what was going to be. Basically what I'm getting at (and I'm getting way too close to what I was trying to stay away from) is how things may have been different if he had let the dice roll as they may. I happen to be on the side of the fence that believes that this manipulation of events tainted the fulfillment of the prophecy. (especially since I believe the whole doomed if you do, doomed if you don't argument is totally boring,)
Now as for the force being balanced at the end of RotJ. I will concede that it's "official" once we have some (even rough) description of how exactly the force was balanced, I'm not a complete idiot, I've thought about it alot, and have come to no decent conclusion that I could swallow. Kepp in mind I don't believe that the Jedi Order was ressurected in Luke, nor do I believe he even became a full fledged Jedi (which consequently enough is thanks to the PT and what it revealed about the Jedi Order).

 

Okay, I have to attempt to answer this. Qui-Gon Jinn was known as a rogue Jedi because he believed in changing the rules to better the situation, no matter where he was. This is better understood in the EU, but we'll keep that out of this. In E1, Obi-Wan says something like (This is NOT a direct quote): "If you'd only listen, you'd be on the council," which implies that he and the council do not get along, despite what the reason is.

The council, on the other hand, also had a reputation of being strict on one set of rules, but we all know that one set of rules is never going to get us through every situation in life.

Qui-Gon manipulated the situation to--in his opinion--better Anakin, the chosen one, and--ultimately--the entire galaxy (of course, having no idea about where Anakin Skywalker was going to lead the galaxy).

So, the argument was that the will of the force LED him to Anakin, which holds unarguable because the queen's ship was blasted in such a way that they HAPPENED to land in Mos Espa and meet Anakin and Shmi.

The Force WAS indeed manipulated and Watto obviously knew it because he was extremely angry, so the original argument that Qui-Gon had his hand in the downfall of the Republic would indeed hold true; however, so would EVERY single person in the prequal trilogy: Obi-Wan should not have trained him, the Council should not have approved it, Padme should have never revealed her feelings... So to say that one incident led to the downfall of the Republic would be stupid, despite where it started there were many people who could have stopped it.

Just a question: You say that "throughout TPM he was lecturing Obi Wan on how the force should not be used wantonly in manipulating events." Where? It seems that Obi-Wan is the one trying to get Qui-Gon to follow the rules, not the other way around.

Further, Luke did become a Jedi, and I can see how you can argue that the PT seemed to disprove that, but Luke became the first of a new breed of Jedi, one that was able to use the Force as necessary for the situation (much like Qui-Gon thought) because Yoda apparently did much thinking and meditation on Dagobah prior to Luke and started to think much like Qui-Gon. As an example:

"I have a bad feeling about this," Obi-Wan says in the beginning of Episode I.
"I don't feel anything," Qui-Gon counters.
"Not about the mission, Master, its something elsewhere."
"Keep your mind here and now."
"But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future."
"But not at the expense of the moment."

Yoda obviously concentrated on too many problems throughout the galaxy and passed it on to his pupils, but in Episode V.

Yoda says, "For a long time I have watched this one (Luke), looking to the horizon never his mind on WHERE HE WAS WHAT HE WAS DOING!"

It appears that Qui-Gon taught Yoda a few things other than about eternal life through the Force, but I do agree with you that the spirits are kind of a creepy theory.

 

Was Qui-Gon responsible for the Republic and Jedi Order's downfall? He may have participated in the downfall by insisting that Anakin train as a Jedi, but I don't think he should be fully blamed? Were Anakin and Palpatine responsible for the Republic's downfall? To be honest, I don't think so. Granted, they had also contributed to the Republic's downfall. But I think that both had served as catalysts to something that had been set in motion a LONG TIME AGO. In the end, only the Republic - namely its citizens - should take the real blame for its downfall.

As for Anakin's introduction and role . . . I had just recently watched "The Phantom Menace" and I was shocked to find the two people who really set in motion, Anakin's introduction into the Republic's history:

*Obi-Wan Kenobi - he was the one who had suggested that Queen Amidala's ship head for Tatooine and find a way to repair the ship.

*Shmi Skywalker - she was the one who had originally suggested to Qui-Gon that he find a way to free Anakin from slavery and allow him to join the Jedi Order.

That's all I have to say.

P.S. - I never considered Qui-Gon as a flawless Jedi. One of the reasons why I like him so much is that he is flawed, yet never considered himself ideal or close to being ideal like many of the other Jedi Knights and Masters.