Senate The roots of Morality: Why are we good?

I never said my fears were logical, but that doesn't make them any less real to me.

As for atheists, when you are drowning, you'll reach for anything to pull yourself up. Its instinctive to want to live, especially for those of us who feel as though we have accomplished nothing with our lives.

And I'm not the first to wonder if all of reality is nothing but a form of hell that I am forever trapped in, to live over and over.

It all comes down to what I said. Each person is a universe unto themselves.

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"I’M ALWAYS THE FIGURE IN SOMEONE ELSE’S DREAM.​

SOMETIMES, I’D RATHER MAKE MY OWN FIGURES AND MY OWN DREAMS”​

-Squarespace commercial, 2017​

 

--I never said my fears were logical, but that doesn't make them any less real to me.--

Willful delusion.

---As for atheists, when you are drowning, you'll reach for anything to pull yourself up. Its instinctive to want to live, especially for those---

That's right, we'll reach for anything to save ourselves aside from pleading to imaginary beings.

 

I love how religious people spam this argument.

"When you are at your most desperate and weakest moments, you will reach out for God" as if that's proof that god exists. No, that's not proof god exists. That's proof that I'm not a robot, that I have flaws, and that I won't be thinking the clearest when I'm drowning.

 

I didn't say that was proof that God exists. I said only that was proof that we will reach for something to cling to in times of desperation. Big difference

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And what difference does that make?

HUMANS DON'T ACT RATIONAL ALL THE TIME NEWS AT 11

 

Because that wasn't my argument.

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant to the topic of human suffering because of their reality. It is a tangent, corollary subject.

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You're the one bringing up the "atheist drowning" argument dude

 

Logically, you already know that this discussion is moot. There are only two options. You either attempt to remedy what bothers you, or you give up. If you're gonna give up, why live? What's the point of prolonging misery? Right? So the other option is to do something, anything, to get out of it. That is what you have to do. It's only too late when you're dead, and you already sound dead, so what have you got to lose?

 

Yep. I'm just getting things ready, anyway.

And I didn't bring up the atheist argument, I was responding to someone else who did. So perhaps you should direct your debate towards them

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Well I can agree with twowolves on one thing: humans are not inherently good, or bad. Morality or lack thereof is not an inherent trait. We are not born with an ethical framework. Morality, ethics is learned behaviour, we are taught to be good or bad or indifferent.

The premise of the thread is "why are we good?" twowolves seems to reject the premise as false. But it seems to me that for the most part we are good. We maintain social order, we look after our sick, our old and our kids. We don't randomly knife our neighbours for a loaf of bread, we obey laws and customs, we help others and we punish those that don't obey the laws of our society. We also seem to recognise evil and we object when we feel that our society is turning callous towards the needs of its people.

Sure there are lots of murderers and rapists and child molestors and evil people generally but they are on the outside looking in. We seem to be able to recognise injustice and evil. Even if you look at the JCC there are threads and comments and thoughts expressed on virtually every international issue which involves some kind of judgement on right or wrong. We have opinions on whether something is "right".

So twowolves let me ask you a question. If you were able to help somebody in need would you do that and if so why? If not, why?

 

Normally, I would help someone, especially if I could do so in complete anonymity. I've done so in the past. For instance. Saw a guy and his younger son trying to get a refrigerator out of a truck. There was no way they were going to make it. No idea who he was. Helped him get it into the house, and he insisted on paying me even though I refused, and then started getting angry that I wouldn't take it, so I took it to be polite. Never saw him again.

However, I'm like King Midas. Only, everything I touch turns to rust. That is why I avoid helping people because it always comes back to haunt me. Or them.

Unlike Nietzsche, who thought he was superior simply because he had some epiphany that all was meaningless, I have quite the opposite outlook. I realize how inferior I am, and recognize the evil in myself, and the capacity to harm others. Hatred comes very easily to me, as does violence, though that violence is almost always directed inward, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I've got the scars to prove it. The bruises, the cuts...and I deserve every single bit of it since I've spent most of my life hurting others.

That is why I argue that humans are inherently evil, and it is only through upbringing that the evil, selfish nature within us is beaten back. Yet, sometimes, even then, it is not enough, and I am living proof of that.

 

But why did you help the guy in the first place? Are there other examples where you have helped people? If so why did you do that?

Edit: btw I'm going to ignore the self hate shtick. I know it's a thing among certain religious people but it's tiring and monotonous, so leave it out and I'll fill in the self loathing blanks myself.

 

Hmm...why did I help him? I dunno. I did it with no expectation of reward. And because I knew it wouldn't take me long. Raising money for Special Olympics, visiting people in jail, helping people with legal work...I help people less and less lately, preferring to simply stay home and interact with others only through the medium of the internet. I don't have people to hang out with even if I wanted to, and my (ex)girlfriend wants nothing to do with me. As to the why, I guess it would now be simply because I want something from them, namely, social interaction and approbation because I am utterly devoid of it. I'm sorry. I don't know how else to answer your question.

 

Dogs > ppl



Trees, too, probably. Beethoven was a smart guy.

 

Why? I don't agree with this at all and nothing in the statements automatically lead to the other. Do you think life extension will make life meaningless?

 

Speaking of morality and religion, I'm nearing a complete breakdown. I'm religious and I feel like everything I do is a sin even having intrusive thoughts is a sin and I'm beginning to get scared of doing anything in fear that God will punish me for my sins. The more I read from that bible the more I breakdown. It seems like basically every human thing is a sin, there is no escape. My life will be miserable and I'll burn in hell and there is nothing I can do. All I can do is despair. One source says that all sin is forgiven and that God is mercifull and doesn't punish us, but then another source says he does punish us and that sinners will burn in a lake of fire for all of eternity. I don't know what to do

 

You need a good dose of atheism, my friend.

 

It's simple. Don't worry about what the bible says. It doesn't warrant a breakdown. Do you know who even wrote the bible? Or when it was written? Let me tell you, nobody really knows who wrote the gospels or what they said when they were originally written. They have been copied, transcribed and edited so many countless times in different languages by diferent people over a period of hundreds of years that the chances that they even remotely represent the "original" gospels is much less than you winning the lottery every year for a decade.

There are plenty of religious people who don't have a high regard for scripture. If you feel better about your life believing in God and Jesus and all that stuff then for **** sake be one of those people that don't take scripture too seriously. The bible is not the inspired word of god it's the inspired word of semi literate scribes copying manuscripts which are themselves copies which started out as the written down accounts of stories which were passed around campfires and town squares for about 100 after the events allegedly happened (I think the earliest is about 70 years and the later gospels are over 100 years after the events).

Don't agonise over it. There is no way any if it is remotely accurate so don't sweat the details. Just be good to everyone, try not to steal , lie or murder, be good to your parents and be kind and you'll do alright. The details are just typos and transcribing errors made over the ages. Don't worry about them.

 

Morality probably comes from the ability to empathize. Whether or not it is conscious empathy doesn't matter.

As to the question "Why are we good?", I'm not so sure we are.

 

Thank you Jedi Merkurian and LostOnHoth for you smart and thoughtful responses, I appreciate that you guys actually took the time to answer my worries and help me. Instead of writing some witty line about atheism and not really brining anything to the conversation except negativity like others in this thread