The ROTJ SE Finale

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by ratmankey, Apr 27, 2003.

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  1. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Haha, Senny's right. No one here has "credibility" besides a few music majors/composers like Tenor or halibut or something.


    And on the same note (get it? "note"... music... get it? :p ), no one here makes professional movies, yet we're all registered at a movie board talking about a movie we all love. :D We in this forum talk about music because we love it. :D



    See? It's all love. [face_mischief]
  2. ratmankey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks dehrian, you actually managed to put my post in words that make sense :)
  3. DARTHLARS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    I like them both, but I don't see any immediate reason behind changing the track for the special edition.
    As good a track as it is, I don't find the new Victory Celebration track to fit among most of the tracks from the old trilogy. It is not as upbeat and grandiose as the older ewok tune. A children's choir sounds off-place. This is an ewok party, with ewok music, where ewoks are singing... and I don't like to think of the ewoks as sounding like children... They are fierce predators, goddamnit! ;)
  4. TenorAprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Someone called?

    ok, some thoughts from the "credible" department...

    someone said and throws on some new piece of music that, like I said, clashes with all the rest of the music and sounds completely inappropriate and out-of-place.

    first off, thematically, this is not a clash. If you listen to the first few phrases, the melody starts out almost identical to the melody of Luke and Leia. Then it grows out of that...very nice thematically, tying in themes from the movie.

    Then, about the ending on a Bb and the fanfare starting on an Eb and this not working....??? First off, melodically, the Victory Celebration ends on a Bb A Bb motion (chordally a Bb, a quick F, to a Bb). The Trumpet Fanfare starts on a Bb! (having a quick B natural back to a Bb motion) To me, that is a very smooth transition.

    But, tonally, you are correct that the Victory Celebration ends in the key of Bb and the credits do start in the key of Eb, yet you think this doesn't work? I think that every composer from Back to Bernstien would disagree! The motion from Bb to an Eb is a basic move from a Dominant chord to a Tonic chord...it is only the basic principal upon which all western music is founded! Musically, you can not create a stronger feeling of rest than having build up on a Dominant chord or key, and arriving back at the Tonic. This is what is happening here.

    So what does this say musically? Well, if all the opening themes are in Bb for every movie, and the Key of Bb feels brought to rest when it arrives to Eb...I think that this is an amazing subtext that Williams composes into the story. It is the end of the Saga, it is done, and finally the theme is brought to rest in Eb.

    Just some thoughts...if you guys didn't follow what I was saying, just let me know, I can try to clarify further...
  5. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    \\reads Tenor's post\\


    \\cerebrum fuses\\ [face_shocked]


    \\nods in complete that-went-way-over-my-head agreement\\
  6. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    I didn't quite get what you said, but it sounds damn good :D
  7. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    I can understand what he is saying.

    Except I think you mean Bach, don'tcha Tenor? ;)
  8. TenorAprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, I was typing too fast...

    anything you can do there for me, Ken 'ol pal?
  9. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I understood what you said Tenor and thank God for you. It's so nice to have someone who knows music so well around to lay da smack down on debates like this... :D Well... and to correct musical notation of Across the Stars for banners and stuff... ;)
  10. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I love the new Victory Celebration ending so much. It just seems to have that wonderful feeling of sadness but hope.

    The Yub Nub song is kinda fun in a corny way, but to tell the truth I always felt a little embarrassed when you've got all the Ewoks singing this chirpy little song at the end...and I'm a guy that likes the Ewoks, too.

    And as for the way it ends before the credits music, I think that works out fine as well. It's like a final crescendo, a climax for the saga before the credits run, rather than flowing the music into them.
  11. Angel_Blue01 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2001
    star 2
    When I first saw ROTJ in 1997 (non-SE, bad VHS copy) I thought the old stuff was good.

    But the one from the SE is so much better.

    I love that movie, and its music!

    Besides, would "Yub nub" really fit with the new scenes of people celebrating around the galaxy?

    Unless the people on Tatooine can sing in Ewokese!
  12. Melda Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    "Besides, would "Yub nub" really fit with the new scenes of people celebrating around the galaxy?"

    I was unconvinced that the new music was really necessary until I read this point.
  13. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    I just watched RotJ again and it's still beautifully sad *sniff*
    It works. Period. :D
  14. Drac39 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 7
    I really liked the non-se,and se music the same
  15. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I just think it provides a more soulful ending for the saga. I know throwing a word like 'soulful' around is very subject to personal interpretation, but that's how I feel.
  16. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    just be happy that you like it ;)
  17. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    But, tonally, you are correct that the Victory Celebration ends in the key of Bb and the credits do start in the key of Eb, yet you think this doesn't work? I think that every composer from Back to Bernstien would disagree!


    I don't think you read my post carefully enough. Tonally, yes, it does work, because Bb naturally segues into Eb. But they lay the notes right on top of each other, which results in a rather odd sound, which I think is that ratmankey is referring to.

    As it plays on the soundtrack, with that momentary pause between the celebration and the end credits, it works musically; but they edited it for the film so that the Bb and the Eb were right on top of each other. This works tonally, but the edit does sound odd.
  18. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I like the OT version, more for nastalgia reasons. I also like the SE version because for me it was unexpeected. I did not know that was changed. And I like how it goes. As for the transition, I think it worked fine.
  19. TenorAprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, so I just watched the transition on my copy of the SE (2nd release, not first, but I believe that they are the same). I listened to it about 5 times, and I could not hear any overlap. What I heard was the melodic motion of the Bb to the A, and then back to the Bb (again, this is Bb-F-Bb harmonically), and as soon as it hits the final Bb, the fanfare comes in (on the Bb). This sounds fine to me. I think what you may be hearing is the quick harmonic motion mentioned above, but the fanfare comes in on the Bb, and not sooner...unless we have different versions, then it doesn't sound like a "bad edit" but pretty smooth.
  20. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    The fanfare comes in on an Eb, doesn't it? Unless the version on the soundtrack is different from what's in the film...

    I'm going to have to look into this. Which is hard, since I don't have any versions of the SEs on any format, I have only the original versions. I'm going off of memory and the soundtracks.
  21. TenorAprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    note wise, the fanfare starts on a Bb. It is in the Key of Eb, but that doesn't solidify until the first phrase of the main theme... before that it is just Bb-B-Bb-B-Bb trill.
  22. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    I need to get my hands on a copy of the SEs and do some comparing and contrasting. I could have sworn the end credits started on an Eb.
  23. TenorAprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    even in the SE soundtracks, it starts on a Bb.
  24. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    I won't even have a chance to look into it until the 17th, at the earliest.
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