CT The "RotJ sucks" meme

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mond, Oct 12, 2011.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Agreed.

    It had some of the most quotable lines in movie history:

    Khan: He tasks me! He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him 'ROUND the moons of Nibia and 'ROUND the Antares Maelstrom and 'ROUND Perdition's flames before I give him up!

    ---

    Kirk: Khan, you bloodsucker! You're going to have to do your own dirty work now! Do you hear me?! Do you?!
    Khan: Kirk? You're still alive, my old friend?
    Kirk: Still! "Old"! "Friend"! You've managed to KILL just about everyone else, but like a poor marksman, you ---keep!---missing!--- the target!
    Khan: Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral.
    [beams the Genesis device away]
    Kirk: Khan... Khan, you've got Genesis, but you don't have me. You were going to kill me, Khan. You're going to have to come down here. You're going to have to come down here!
    Khan: I've done far worse than kill you, Admiral. I've HURT you. And I wish to go on HURTING you. I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her; MAROONED for all eternity in the center of a dead planet... buried alive! Buried alive...!
    Kirk: KHAAANNNN!
    [echo]
    Kirk: KHAAANNNN!

    ----
  2. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Actually, from what I've heard, GF3's 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO' scene (and the ending in general) is considered that film's few bright points despite Sophia's horrid acting. Vader's on the other hand in ROTS is thought of in the opposite manner typically. An embarassing end to a well done sequence (Vader's creation).
  3. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Victory Celebration is definitely > Yub Nub. But Lapti Nek is definitely > Jedi Rocks. :p
  4. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I'm in the Yub Nub crowd. It's not very fitting for the saga, but it's a better tune to me.
  5. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    I was 12 when ROTJ came out on theaters in 1983.

    I vaguely remember reading some reviews here and there in the following months, somewhat downplaying the movie for his too perdictable happy end, the over-use of monsters and teddy bears, or the rehash of the Death Star. But, like you mention, none in the vein of "the whole film sucks". Regardless here of more intellectual crtics and reviews I wasn't taking care of at the time (Les Cahiers du Cinéma, Positif, Sight and Sound etc...)

    Then I since read some books and retro-reviews about SW containing rather mixed opinion about the movie, for instance "Star Wars : Les coulisses d'un Mythe" ("Star Wars : behind the Myth") by Belgian/French movie journalist Christophe Corthouts published in 1997, or Sci-Fi movie-magazine MAD MOVIES looking back at the OT phenomenon in 1990. Anyway always saying more and more that ROTJ was definitely not on par with the others, which I personally agree with.

    But I never really stumbled upon a book, review, TV interview, people's reaction or whatever, stating that the film was really bad and weak, until the internet became of widespread use in the late 1990's, and the PT came out actually. Even since then was it pretty rare.

    For the record, ROTJ is my third favorite SW movies, just behind ESB and ANH. I still like it a lot. And I still consider it better than any of the PT films despite some flaws, including ROTS.;)
  6. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Mond: Remember that Lard Biscuit fellow? While he was writing one of the first comprehensive laudatory TPM pieces, he saved room for an essay titled, ?Why Return of the Jedi is the Star Wars movie that sucks.?

    It's rather interesting: While many see ROTJ as the first of Lucas's missteps, a few of us perceive it as an aberration in an otherwise dynamic, vibrant series.
  7. Mond Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2009
    star 3
    I actually like all six movies; I just think of ROTJ as one of the weakest. But not so weak that I'd consider it an aberration per se.

    But I'd place TPM well ahead of it in terms of overall quality.
  8. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    I just think Victory Celebration is too mellow and serene. Yub Nub may be a little Endor-specific for the galactic montage, but it's got a much more satisfying oomph.

    If there's one big flaw to Yub Nub, it's the total absence of any motivic relation to the rest of the score.

    Victory Celebration is, to me, a huge missed opportunity to bring the leitmotif to a rousing climax as good as or better than The Throne Room in SW.
  9. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    If such a thing is possible.
  10. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    They should have tried, at least.

    Instead, Victory Celebration has neither SW leitmotif NOR the "ewokness" of Yub Nub, making it (to my ears) some of the least-"star wars" music in the saga.
  11. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    I think the quieter, vaguely melancholic notes are what makes Victory Celebration pitch perfect for the ending of the cycle. Just the right balance between the bombastic, borderline overwrought celebrations of I and IV and the more somber sendoffs of the other films.
  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Agreed. Then again, the Star Wars are sort of over at that point.
    To me, the whole saga is consistent up to episode VI. Taken as a whole Episodes I-V are very dark and often moody. In ROTJ everything starts going right for once.
  13. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    "Victory Celebration" is undeniably the weakest composition in the series. What Lucas should have done for the SE is augment the Yub Yub tune, excising the asinine Ewok/"Celebrate the love" vocals and drawing it out into an orchestral piece, with a male/female chorus a la "Duel of the Fates".

  14. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    I actually liked GODFATHER 3. It definitely wasn't as good as the first two, but I think it similarly to the Prequel Trilogy gets a lot more bashing than it deserves. Personally I thought three had the strongest ending.
  15. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Not a bad idea. Yub Yub made the Rebellion's victory seem too parochial, but maybe it could have been changed instead of being thrown out completely.
  16. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]you have ruined Yub Nub for me forever. Thank you, now I'll never have to watch these cruddy laserdisc rips again!

    Just to clarify, "Celebrate the love!" makes me laugh now. I hear it every time, and it sounds so tacky, cheesy, and contrived. Even for Star Wars. Especially they way it's sort of understated so you can barely tell what they're saying "ya wa! etcha cha-cha, hey-yohee coopitee kee, blheehehe yohoo haa! ... halleluhee-ya! clebrate the luhhhh haaa!"

    [face_laugh]Sorry Yub Nub I still nub you.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I've never heard of any "ROTJ sucks" meme. Even if it happens to be my least favorite SW movie.
  18. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    TBH, that's my own attitude towards both GFIII & the PT - good, just not as good, as the originals. Doesn't mean they're totally devoid of merit.
    (Which was basically my attitude towards ROTJ until the PT came along & the division between OT & PT became more of a focus)

    I don't think GFIII had the strongest ending, though - the shot of the door closing on Kay at the end of Part I has become one of the most enduring cinematic images of all time. Michael dying & falling off his chair in Part III rarely, if ever, gets a mention.
  19. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    You're probably right. And I wasn't talking just about him dying, but I actually liked the scene where we just saw Michael entering and showing raw pure emotion when his daughter died and then the flashbacks shown before his death. It moved me the most because it showed truly how the path he had chose destroyed his life and left him alone. Objectively it probably isn't the best. Subjectively it moved me the most.
  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Agreed, way too mellow for people jumping up and down in celebration. It's a freaking party.



    Yub Nub is fun, fitting the feeling of the moment. Everyone is laughing and hugging. One of the camouflaged Rebels is doing some of the stiffest dancing I've ever seen. It would have been sweet if R2, Lando and Wicket got into a breakdancing contest, with 3PO doing the robot in the background.

    And Luke walks into the scene in rhythm to Yub Nub! For that reason alone the song should have been kept.
  21. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Yep - gotta agree with all that, & I loved it the first time I saw it at the cinema. Really have to take back my comment about the "GFIII pathetic NOOOO moment". It did work in its own context, it just sucked that it was part of a vastly inferior/tainted work.

    This is getting way off-topic, anyway, but if you're a massive fan of my other favourite messed-up epic movie family, I can't recommend Peter Cowie's simply-titled "The Godfather Book" highly enough (if you haven't read it already). Found it at a second-hand bookstore & it inspired me to work on a book of my own.

    [image=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71N4NFE6RBL._SL500_AA300_.gif]

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Godfather-Book-Peter-Cowie/dp/0571190111


    Back on topic - Victory Celebration sucks, because it just plain does.

    1 + 1 = 2.

    In any right triangle, the area of the square whose side is the hypotenuse (the side opposite the right angle) is equal to the sum of the areas of the squares whose sides are the two legs (the two sides that meet at a right angle).

    Victory Celebration = rubbish. It's limp, pathetic, soulless muzak with no connection to the SW saga in any way.

    Despite the silliness of Yub Nub, it fits - just. And it actually does finish on a nice rise which leads into the closing credits.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The primary reason to ignore those people is that they're not thinking for themselves or referring to actual "rules of filmmaking". They're simply parroting "talking points" handed down by their hero RLM in pure FOX News fashion.

    It's not a "rule of filmmaking" that laser fire hitting a ship doesn't count when it's seen from inside the ship rather than an external view.
  23. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    He claims not to have seen the RLM reviews. He just harps on protagonists and likable characters. If you want a likable character, like a character.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    QFT.

    As if "likability" could be objectively measured anyway, when it's entirely a matter of personal taste.
  25. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I'd argue that a character doesn't need to be likable for their story to be good. Many famous and important works feature protagonists who aren't nice people.
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