CT The "RotJ sucks" meme

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mond, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    QFT

    I'd be hard pressed to think of a single protagonist in an Irvine Welsh novel who isn't extremely flawed at best, & he's my favourite author.

    An unlikeable protagonist does need to be particularly interesting & engaging, however.
  2. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I love Star Trek V. Even the poster (another beautiful Bob Peak composition) is stunning. Look how the "V" shape connotes not only the movie number, but also the "v" finger outline of the Vulcan greeting, which Leonard Nimoy based on the Hebrew letter "shin", standing for "Shaddai", which means "Almighty (God)". Also, an ultra-modern (fictional-futuristic) transport, the Enterprise, is positioned at the top, contrasting with an ancient form of transport (real-historic), horses, with riders, at the bottom; and theyre both racing toward the viewer; both carrying human searchers, thirsty for knowledge (but not necessarily wisdom). The film is a real marvel. As you say, its "pulpy", but executed with a certain care and astuteness by its director, one William Shatner. In fact, its something of a creative pastiche, not unlike, say, "Attack of the Clones", effortlessly mixing high- and low-brow, often in the same frame. One of Trek Vs DVD chapters even has a title straight from Joseph Campbell: "The Masks of God". And the cinematography is just amazing. Without exaggeration, and by quite a long way, Andrew Laszlos work may make Trek V the best lit of all the Star Trek features; though it does still lack some of the technical opulence (and brilliance) of Richard Klines work on Robert Wises estimable opening entry "Star Trek The Motion Picture", I think (when all is said and done, Wises contribution is my favourite of all the Star Trek features, and one of my favourite Science Fiction movies, period). I just love some of the visual (and otherwise) gags in the film, like the entrance to Paradise City having the word "Lost" graffiti-ed next to the word "Paradise" (the city, of course, looks incredibly ram-shackle: even less picturesque than a Tatooine spaceport), the various things that go wrong with the Enterprise, Uhuruas bizarre moon-lit dance and, most of all, perhaps, the strange image of McCoy in jeans and Kirk in a lumberjack shirt on the bridge of the Enterprise. And no love letter to Trek V would be complete without mentioning the campfire scene with "The Big Three" (which the film, largely, is really about). Quite possibly, it is the most funny, touching, tender, poignant and human scene in ALL of Star Trek. Yes, as excessive as it sounds, ALL those epithets apply, in my opinion; and I really cant find more natural acting, or more natural exchanges, anywhere. The setting, too, is perfect: an ancient way for nomads to bond, earth-bound and space-faring alike. This could never have been made as the first, second, third or even fourth film; but it sits perfectly as the fifth (indeed, as I hope I have indicated, even the "V" numeral is mined for greater depth). Oh, yeah. Did I mention the cinema-verite style employed when Shatner shows us the Enterprise shuttlebay? A unique directorial flourish in the annals of Star Trek (once again, this aligns Trek V with AOTC (i.e., the Battle of Geonosis)). Theres more to this movie than meets the eye -- and theres a lot that meets the eye! William Shatner has been very unfairly grilled for this movie, in my opinion. Yet, ironically, it may just have the truest depictions of the key characters, and the most TV-episode-like whimsy. And it is visually and thematically ambitious in ways that none of the bashing remotely avows.

    * * *

    ROTJ has an under
  3. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    =D=

    Really well said. Couldn't agree more, except maybe about some of the acting and lines.

    I like this film a lot too, although it's not my favorite overall and has some issues (the Ewoks, the monster factory), for those reasons, and others of my own already mentioned throughout these boards.
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    And the typos. :p

    I dont know if its my favourite of the saga.

    Not even sure I have a favourite (even if Ive said differently in the past).

    * * *

    In 2011, I appreciate them all.
  5. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    Damn good post there ...

    The forest setting was really such a great place to end to end the Empire - and close out Star Wars - you're statements were right on.

    Lucas the story teller had his finger on the pulse of ROTJ and closed the saga in grand fashion.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I love Star Trek V.

    I think it sucks. I'm sorry, but I do. ROTJ is twenty times better than that movie, even if I consider it to be my least favorite STAR WARS movie.
  7. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks.

    Ending with a forest just feels so right, to me. Plus, I think the forest(s) of Endor ("The entire planet is actually a moon, and is one big city, er, forest!") -- in reality, Redwood National Park, CA -- has so much character. Those redwood trees, the tallest and largest in the world, are just stunning to behold. I've never actually been to California, or to any part of the Americas, but I must make it my duty to go. And for Lucas, of course, Redwood National Park is right on his doorstep, more or less. Therefore, ROTJ feels that bit more "personal"; that bit more natural. When you look at the whole saga, Star Wars has a way with forests: Naboo, Kashyyyk, Yavin and Endor. Four (three real, one fake but with plate work) forests in six movies. Plus a (fake but with real animals) swamp in another. AOTC is the odd one out in this equation (but it does feature a real meadow). There is a lot of history built into those redwoods. Over 90% of all the redwoods that covered the planet were logged in the past several hundred years, I believe. It's a testament to human blindness and greed that they were wiped out so quickly; and also a testament to human foresight that we somewhat redeemed ourselves by setting up preserves to protect the remaining ecosystems. I certainly like seeing this referenced in ROTJ. Again, Star Wars is a predominantly visual story: the visuals literally tell their own story. It simply isn't possible to describe any of this stuff. It must simply be SEEN. A place I've been to a few times and gotten some pretty nice pictures of, which is local to me, and I will certainly go again, is Coed-y-Brenin. It doesn't compare to a redwood forest, but it's pretty cool all the same --> http://www.snowdoniaguide.com/coed_y_brenin.html

    Anyway, where was I? I think one reason ROTJ tends to fall out of favour with Star Wars fans is its somewhat-sluggish pacing, which lends to the feel that it is "padded out", compared to the other five entries, which all move rather briskly, and tend to be more fantastical/sci-fi-oriented (i.e., visually extravagant). Of course, the "recycling" of previous films is pretty blatant in ROTJ, too. These aspects can undermine one's investment in the film, I suppose, but, for me, they are also what make it great. See, while I've taken issue with the film before, I now rather like the fact that it unfurls on its own terms, deliberately placing more emphasis on its scant locations and characters, rather than events and edits, per se. One small scene that kinda brings this quality to mind, for me, is that short cut to the outside of Jabbas Palace, where the binary suns of Tatooine are shown through a dusty haze. True, it seems to defy what I've said on some levels -- no main characters, brief, a transitional moment -- but I also think it punctuates the movie in such a way as to emphasize the slow churning nature of destiny (obviously, this is playfully undercut by a consumption/burp gag: a microcosm of Star Wars --> i.e, religious piety and daft irreverence in the same frame). Core precepts are being asserted in ROTJ, but slowly, inexorably, comedically, through its slow, steady gait. In this sense, it is a pretty atavistic entry, recalling the droids' trek through the Tatooine desert in the opening passage of the original. It's a more languid and naturalistic look and elaboration upon the mythology and machinery of the movies. It knows when to kick off with bold, dramatic flourishes -- the action set-pieces are, I think, particularly thrilling here, Ewok shenanigans included (the framing is so good, I think, during the action-oriented Endor bits, in particular) -- but, in the main, it sort of de-emphasizes spectacle in favour of allowing the natural bonds between the main characters to shine through. That's
  8. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I like those thoughts, Cryogenic. I've only recently in the past week rediscovered my love of ROTJ and I think maybe you've touched on what I liked about it, especially the bit about Endor's nature hike. And the pacing. For a while now, since Revenge of the Sith, I've seen ROTJ as the odd man out in terms of style. Now, I see that there's a lot of this slow-pacing throughout all the films, and really finally feels natural in the final installments. The Luke and Leia scene for instance really lets something that's been danced around in ANH and ESB have its moment. No, Luke is never going to get the girl, and its not only simply not meant to be, but there's a completely practical reason for it too. With my *critical* eye, I've seen plenty of negatives about the scene, especially in how it slows the movie down, but I now see its grace.

    That's all for now, I'm short on time at the moment.
  9. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    In the immediate aftermath of Jedi in 1983, I remember the following complaints by fans in general:

    - Death Star again?
    - Vader no longer such a badass
    - Han Solo wimpified
    - Teddy Bears

    But I don't think anybody realized the full extent of the suckage until a sober evaluation 10-15 years later.
  10. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I don't recall anyone complaining about another DS until Gary Kurtz began bringing it up in the late 1990s, but yeah, everything else is spot on regarding the whingeing. All these cynical hardcore sci-fi fans who suddenly 'rediscovered' Star Wars in the 1990s while they were in their late teens/early 20s conveniently forgot just how much they enjoyed the Ewoks at the time.

    Funny thing was, at the time I was getting back into SW in the early 1990s, I had some mates around & had dug out some old toys & magazines, then muttered something derogatory about Ewoks, & these guys, who had no interest in SW past childhood nostalgia, immediately jumped & said "Hey! Ewoks were cool!"

    And they bloody were. The little tree houses, rope bridges & flying foxes my brother & I constructed in the front garden out of sticks, strings & masking tape lasted way past the first era of Star Wars, finally disintegrating about the time Zahn's Heir To The Empire trilogy was about to be published.

    Utter tragedy that the bloodthirsty, raunchy, Holy Ewok Battle Song (aka Yub Nub) has been removed from ROTJ, but there's a damn good reason it was never subtitled, the film would have received NC-17 ratings or similar the world over. The verse regarding 'not enough orifices on this one, let's cut ourselves some more' (a direct historical reference to Genghis Khan & the Mongols, included in the song in original Mongolian language in ROTJ) would have caused heart attacks, not to mention the five preceding verses which Lawrence Kasdan supposedly took from assorted writings of the Marquis De Sade.
    I think "So now eat your gold" could have remained, however.
  11. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    The Ewoks were going to eat the heroes! I always bring this up when their lameness is raised.

    I remember in the '90s, people harping on about how much screentime one dead Ewok received. Then they complained that no Gungans were shown dying in TPM--you can't please some people.
  12. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I didn't know there were words written in English for Yub Nub, or that they were so raunchy in nature. Could you post a link to a location where I can read the lyrics, or better yet, post them here?
  13. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    RotJ is my fave film. Always has been. I love the redemption story and personally, I think it's a large part of why many/most *don't* like it. Which is rather sad to consider. I also like the selfless love of Luke, it contrasts *brilliantly* with his father's selfish, possessive love in the PT. On the whole though, I'm pretty much done with both Trek and Wars...The spirit's just gone. :(

    I've heard it sucks since I discovered the 'net in the 90's. I've also encountered the badgering for daring to like what many vocal fans don't (RotJ) and not liking what most seem to hail as the pinnacle (ESB). The Yoda/Jedi bits on Dagobah are the sole major high point for me. I can deal with dark/serious if there's *hope* but ESB doesn't offer much...it's simply dark. Dark for the sake of dark, turns me off.

    If Peter Cushing's Tarkin had lived into ESB I'd probably like it much more. Dooku and Tarkin are the dark ones that appeal to me though I liked Anakin's story until I saw how it was handled on film. I will always prefer Vader over Anakin. (What I mean is: I prefer how Anakin/Vader were handled by OT Prowse/Shaw. I just never could stand Hayden as Anakin and Jake wasn't any better. Totally made a character I sympathized with completely unlikable or relatable.)
  14. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Neither do I actually.

    I vaguely remember a few general and quick reviews in the press or mainstream magazines, somehow questioning the end as a too happy and predictable one
    (lack of gravita I guess...Star Wars is anyway basically a fairy tale made for chidren and teenagers...), and that Lucas might have gone too far with the monsters in Jabba's palace. Can't seem to recall any reference to the re-use of the Death Star in 1983-1984.

    I do think that, yeah, 10-15 years old kids who saw and liked ROTJ without bothering about the Ewoks for instance, finding them funny and believable, grew up and, some years later, re-assessing the OT as a whole and comparing ROTJ to the previous, inevitably found that the last film was less even and sort of less "serious" (Walt Disney syndrome). Although they liked it very much at first sight. That's more or less what happened to me.

    But moreover, I guess the way the core of the movie was beautifully and dramatically well handled (Luke versus The Emperor and Vader, space battle, Yoda's scenes, Han Solo's rescue) really helped putting the Ewoks or the over-use of extravagant monsters aside, even for kids. I clearly recall I was mainly focused on Luke's misssion and looming confrontation with The Emperor and his father, as well as the ground/Space battle to come. Even at 12.
  15. klooney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    Upon the first run of Jedi in theaters there was much discussion on the elementary school playground on the many things that went wrong. The planet of teddy bear costumes in the California redwoods was not well received, on the level of Jar-Jar Binks. Secondly, unnecessary Muppets. Empire managed to pull off a Muppet and have it work. An impressive feat. But finally in Jedi we get to see the lair of the infamous space gangster Jabba the Hutt, and its filled with goofy Muppets, hamming it up in a horrendous musical number! WTF?! Should have ran that idea past somebody first. As cringe-worthy as an Attack of the Clones fireside chat. Then Leah being Luke's sister. Weak! Come on was that really necessary? Clearly this story was not planned out well. Boba Fett gets killed off early by falling into a giant gross looking sand-hole. Weak and weirdly gross. Death Star again? Felt kind of stale and cheap. Still no explanation for why Kenobi mysteriously committed suicide in the first movie or how he became "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", and now there's multiple ghosts which for some reason Luke's sister can't see. Then Yub-Nub. The Emperor was pretty cool, but different looking from the one in Empire... somewhat confusing. Slave Leah was well received and much appreciated but somehow seemed wrong, an unnecessary insult to the character. Jedi had its moments, mostly Luke's, but overall it was a steady stream of unneeded disappointments and unresolved mysteries and re-hashes from the first films. Muppets AND teddy bears? Death Star again? Was nobody available to run this script past? If it's a meme that the movie failed to live up to it's predecessors, and was disappointing, it's a meme that's been around since day one. Add to that the special edition changes that actually make it WORSE. ARGH!!!
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Hmm...

    Do I post a link to a copy of the Divine Marquis' most notorious work & risk a permanent ban, or just let the joke end here?
  17. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I'm surprised that these misgivings were expressed by mere children in grade school. ROTJ happened to be my favorite SW movie until I hit the age of 12, the juncture at which I began to get a bit discriminating.
  18. bluesaber70 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2007
    star 2
    May of 1983 after it came out & I saw it. I said it myself. But, it's grown on me some.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm surprised too. I was in sixth grade when ROTJ came out, and most of the talk in middle school was about how friggin' awesome Jabba the Hutt was. Nobody much mentioned the Ewoks, and any Han comments were among us girls talking about how hot he was.

    I actually came to appreciate ROTJ more when I became an adult. The redemption story was always good, but the power of it, and of the story of unconditional love, grew on me more as I got older.
  20. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    D'oh, I thought you were serious. Now I feel silly.

    Anyway, here are the Ewok and Basic (English) lyrics to Yub Nub:

    Ewok Lyrics
    Yub nub, eee chop yub nub;
    Ah toe meet toe peechee keene,
    G'noop dock fling oh ah.
    Yahwah, eee chop yahwah;
    Ah toe meet toe peechee keene,
    G'noop dock fling oh ah.
    Coatee chah tu yub nub;
    Coatee chah tu yahwah;
    Coatee chah tu glowah;
    Allay loo ta nuv.
    Glowah, eee chop glowah;
    Ya glowah pee chu nee foam,
    Ah toot dee awe goon daa.
    *Coatee cha tu goo; (Yub nub!)
    Coatee cha tu doo; (Yahwah!)
    Coatee cha tu too; (Ya chaa!)
    Allay loo ta nuv,
    Allay loo ta nuv,
    Allay loo ta nuv.
    Glowah, eee chop glowah.
    Ya glowah pee chu nee foam
    Ah toot dee awe goon daa.
    repeat *chorus

    Basic Lyrics
    Freedom, we got freedom;
    And now that we can be free,
    Come on and celebrate.
    Power, we got power;
    And now that we can be free,
    It's time to celebrate.
    Celebrate the freedom;
    Celebrate the power;
    Celebrate the glory;
    Celebrate the love.
    Power, we got power;
    And now that we can be free,
    It's time to celebrate.
    *Celebrate the light; (Freedom!)
    Celebrate the might; (Power!)
    Celebrate the fight; (Glory!)
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.
    Glory, we found glory.
    The power showed us the light,
    And now we all live free.
    repeat *chorus
  21. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I am also quite surprised. I was 8 when the movie came out and I remember it being the favourite film of the three for most of my classmates. The "RotJ sucks" zeitgeist, as far my own little world is concerned, only began a few years ago on Star Wars forums like this one.
  22. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Needs more sex, violence & cornflakes
  23. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    By this logic there would be no food you did not like, there would be no movies, no books, comics, TV-shows, clothes, music etc that you did not like. Simply make yourself like them right?
    Most people I know do not work like that, some like liver, some hate it. Some like rap music, some don't.
    Like is an emotion and often they are not something you can just will into being.

    Regards
    Nordom
  24. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Is it as irritating as the assertion that TPM an OBJECTIVELY GREAT film and anyone that don't agree is either an idiot or Lucas Hater or bribed by Peter Jackson? I have come across this reasoning more than once.

    Or the assertion that the PT films are OBJECTIVELY better films that the OT films and anyone that don't agree is blinded by nostalgia?

    Regards
    Nordom
  25. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    I didn't know what the word meme meant when I began using it. ROTJ was the first movie I ever saw alone. My father wouldn't sit through it. When he picked me up he asked, "Well, was it good?" to which I replied, "Not really." I was quiet all the way home. Somehow the movie had disappointed me on a deep level. Later I was to realize that turning 11 and watching ROTJ wasn't as life changing as watching ESB was at 8.