CT The "RotJ sucks" meme

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mond, Oct 12, 2011.

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  1. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    From what I understand it wasn't just a modern thing, but more or less the situation that happened to the first two films of the PT but earlier. Where the younger generation on the whole liked it, but the older audience was polarized by it. I'm pretty sure it was not considered a classic near the caliber of the first two until the Special Edition theatrical re-release. Though there is still a stigma on it for many. While I think it is one of the three weaker Star Wars films (yes I like one PT films more than an OT film, on the whole I think SITH is better) I certainly do not think it is a bad movie.
  2. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    When i was a kid it was my favorite star wars film, and now it's my least favorite of the original trilogy. I think it has good ideas but all are under-developed, wrapped up too neatly. Too many arcs are rehashed from earlier episodes as well. And i know i'm just a Fett fanboy (and this is a smaller complaint) but they could have used Boba a little more. I like the idea of him tracking Han to endor, aiding imperials there, getting shot down by Leia in a firefight. I also really don't like suddenly calm, flowerchild Leia. She should have been a stubborn rebel leader type to the very end, even with character development making her more tolerant of the antics of others.

    Of course, some of the things i loved about the movie as a kid i still love:

    Scout Troopers and speeder bikes. Maybe my favorite design of a non-unique character in all of star wars, and my favorite vehicle.
    The rancor. Once again mostly aesthetic, but it's undeniably awesome.
    "I'm a jedi, like my father before me." - Even if i were to rewrite the entirity of ROTJ, i would keep that line, and it's delivery. Likewise, Vader should have been redeemed, at least in the eyes of Luke.

    Really, it's not a bad movie. But it's not at the level of ANH or ESB. I don't think those movies are perfect, but they're dang close.
  3. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    I have never understood the hate for ROTJ. And I'm not just saying this because it's my favorite of all six films.

    Look at this movie. Look at it. Now look at other movies. Now back to Jedi. Now other movies - look behind you. It's Return of the Jedi, being more powerful than you could possibly imagine. Just sit back for a minute and bask in the aura of awesome that this film radiates. You need action? Shut up and witness, son. This movie's got more explosions than you can count - we're talking sail barges and space stations, A-wings flying through Star Destroyers. Don't even pretend you can handle that. Oh, you want some romance? Jane Austen traveled through time just to take notes on Han and Leia, then went back to her own time and died alone 'cause she didn't need a man after seeing that Grade A love story. Not enough? How about adventure. Think Tatooine was just a dustball? You never understood the definition of "scum and villainy" until you saw Jabba's palace, so buckle up, fool, 'cause this slime dude's got six-breasted babes and a pet rancor. Feeling hungry? Not after seeing a Jedi manhandle that beast into a shishkabob. In case you didn't feel inferior enough, now I'm getting to the best part: remember that whiny kid who cried like a wimp after getting his hand chopped off? Settle in, 'cause Luke Skywalker is about to rock your galaxy. Mind tricks, Force chokes, backflips - he's got it all, and if you were worried about him being handcuffed and dangled over a sarlaac pit, don't, 'cause he's Luke Skywalker and he can free himself, save the princess and his friends, and blow up the desert in his sleep. Did I mention his lightsaber? No, I didn't, because I'm not sure you can handle that much awesome. It's green, the color of everything that you wish you could be. Wait - we just reached the intermission. What, you didn't know? At this point, the movie's only halfway done. That's right, hunker down with your Barbies, little girl, cuz we've only gotten started.
    Many Bothans died to bring you the second half of this movie, so show some respect and pay attention. There's a second Death Star, cuz the first one got blown up by Luke in the first movie, but guess what - he's finished his training with Yoda, and he's got better things to do than blow up another Death Star, so he leaves that lesser business to his friends and some teddy bears that are so cute your mother wishes she had one of them instead of you. And speeder bikes. You can't even comprehend how fast these things are. But Luke and Leia can, and they didn't even need two separate bikes to get the job done - they rode one together and exploded a whole bunch Imperial scouts - and they're just gettin started. The Rebels take the Death Star out like so much trash, but not before Luke faces the Emperor, resists the Dark Side, redeems his father (Darth Vader, the second-most-powerful joker in the galaxy, in case any of you forgot), and lets his dad do the dirty work of killing Palpatine, cuz that's just how Luke rolls. There's so much sweet redemption in here that you'll cry like a baby because you can only dream of being this noble. You didn't even know heroes like this existed, and no, there's nobody else in cinematic history who can hold a candle to Luke, so stop fumbling through your DVD collection to come up with a contender.
    Bottom line: your kids secretly wish this movie was their dad instead of you. What's at the end of a double rainbow? This movie. So take one last look at yourself, at what you thought you knew and believed, and let it go, son, cuz liking this movie just made you a whole lot less pathetic, and that, my friend, is reason to rejoice. Now look at me.
    Now look up. Down.
    I'm on a horse, watching Return of the Jedi.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]
  5. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Am I the only one who read that hearing it being said by the voice of Boba Fett in the Robot Chicken skits?
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  6. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    I thought that energetic post was pretty spot on.

    He surely believes that the movie title "Jedi" refers to Luke Skywalker returning. Not Anakin nor the Jedi Order ...

    And you know what - I tend to agree ... it was clear as day in 1983.

    Somehow years of retcon and revision and new films, stories, etc. have almost skewed or tricked my memory - but posts like that bring it all home, and break it down nicely.

  7. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    THAT, my friend, was the GREATEST post I've seen on these boards. Ever!
  8. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I love that post... classic. [face_laugh] However, I don't think that viewing it as Luke driving Anakin to redeem himself takes away from Luke's story in ROTJ. Nor do I think that the title referring to Luke instead of Anakin was a foregone conclusion before any revisions or the PT came along. It remains powerful (even more, IMO) even if the title refers to the Jedi within Anakin, and it could have always meant this. Also...

    TESB
    Vader to Luke: The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi
    yet.

    ROTJ
    Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
    Yoda: Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

    So if Luke is not a Jedi yet at the beginning of ROTJ, he can not be "returning".


  9. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Toward the end of ROTJ:
    Luke: "...I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
    Emperor: "So be it, Jedi."

    So Luke did "return" the Jedi.

    I'm actually in the camp that believes the Jedi being "returned" is the Jedi Order itself, not necessarily Luke or Anakin in particular. Of course, the Jedi Order returns by way of both Luke and Anakin.
  10. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    But at the end of the film, Luke has become a Jedi. He says it himself: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." He confronted Vader. He faced down the dark side and resisted. Thus, the period of time when the Jedi ceased to exist ended, because Luke, after completing his training, could then claim the title of "Jedi" and start working to revive the order.

    But, I may be biased in this thinking, since I tend to believe everything revolves around Luke. ;)

    Back on topic: ROTJ is teh best.


    EDIT: Oh, well...yeah, what the poster above me said. :p
  11. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Right, what you guys said supports Luke bringing around the return of the Jedi order (which I personally think is a secondary meaning after it being in reference to Anakin). That is different than the Jedi in question being Luke himself. He does become a Jedi during ROTJ, to be sure, but he is not one yet at the beginning according to Yoda (and Vader at the end of TESB). So he can't "return" if he wasn't one already. But yeah, it is off-topic, and ROTJ is a great movie. :p
  12. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    But following that line of reasoning means that Anakin, also, could not be the Jedi, as he does not redeem himself until the end of the movie - thus the timing is irrelevant, and can't be used to support your argument against Luke being the embodiment of the movie title.

    I understand why people believe the "Jedi" refers to Anakin, and I even agree with the idea to a point. I just happen to think that applying the meaning only to him is shortchanging Luke and missing the broader message of the OT.

    Topic, you seem to have disappeared again...
  13. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    It's semantics. The Jedi within Anakin can return since he was a Jedi before. Luke was not a Jedi before the movie, so he does not return as a Jedi at any point during it; he becomes one during it.

    We've had whole threads about this though, and as you said, the point of this thread is whether ROTJ sucks or not (or if there is a meme for the opinion that it sucks... or something :p).
  14. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Another argument in favor of "Return of the Jedi" referring to the Jedi Order as a whole (and not specifically to Anakin or Luke) is that Revenge of the Sith is meant to be the antithesis of Return of the Jedi. George deliberately named the film Revenge of the Sith in order to act as a counter-balance to Return of the Jedi. The Sith who gained "revenge" in ROTS are clearly the Sith as a group, and not specifically Palpatine. It follows that the Jedi who "return" in Return of the Jedi are the Jedi as a group.

    Also, the original title of ROTJ was Revenge of the Jedi, but George renamed it after concluding (and rightfully so) that the Jedi are selfless and do not seek revenge. If the title had been kept as Revenge of the Jedi, it would quite clearly refer to the Jedi as the group--- What would Luke be seeking "revenge" for? What about Anakin? The audience at the time were unaware of Anakin's past and therefore the fact of him achieving some sort of revenge would be lost on them. The Jedi Order achieving revenge for having been wiped out makes more sense.

  15. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Absolutely it's semantics - I was just pointing out that timing isn't the issue. When you take in the saga as a whole, yes, Anakin's 'return' to the Jedi way is part of the more general "return of the Jedi." But Luke's becoming a Jedi meant the return of the actual order itself, which Anakin couldn't accomplish since he died a whole five minutes after his redemption. I don't believe in the theory that you can pin the whole thing on Anakin. C'mon. He's not that cool.

    But back to the real topic...I know a lot of the hate I hear for ROTJ is directed toward the Ewoks. I don't get it. Yes, it's implausible that an army of tiny bears can bring down an army of Imperial troops (although in their defense, there really weren't that many troops on the moon, plus the forest was Ewok territory, they knew how to work within it - AT-STs in a forest? Really? - and they had the element of surprise...) but it's also implausible that the Empire designed a battle station as big as a moon, capable of destroying entire planets, meant to herald a new era of Imperialism and strike fear into the hearts of every citizen...and not one person noticed the exhaust port flaw. ("Hmm, what's this big red button that says 'Push to Destroy Death Star'? Gary, did you see this? Yeah? Huh. Wonder who put that there. Weird. Anyway, like I was saying...")

    I have more thoughts on the Ewoks, but it'll wait until tomorrow.

  16. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Right, and as I said earlier that would support the view that the title refers to the Jedi Order, but not Luke himself. I personally see it as referring to Anakin first, and the Jedi Order in general second. I do view it in the context of the whole Saga, but I still don't think you have to view it that way to think it could refer to Anakin; the OT alone suggested this interpretation to me before we had the PT too.

    Anyway... I agree about the ewoks. My main problem with them was not them themselves, but rather just the amount of time that the movie spent on them. I guess it also would have been more believeable if they had been shown being more effective against the Stormtroopers with more believably deadly weapons. But much of what they did was aid as a distraction too, because Chewbacca helped turn the tide when he took over the AT-ST.
  17. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Darth Vader was very much a secondary character to me when I first watched the trilogy, so I can't say I had that same understanding. Age probably had a lot to do with that.

    The amount of time spent on the Ewoks seemed very balanced to me: what else would have filled up that time? More monsters? We'd already had an hour or so of Jabba, the rancor, Boba, the sarlaac... lots of fighting and darkness and slime and ickiness. I thought the Ewoks provided a nice change of pace. They start off cute and cuddly, but in a rather awesome manner it turns out they want to eat Han and Luke and worship Threepio - the setup is pure gold. The Ewok scenes provide some of the saga's best comedic moments, IMO. And none of those scenes seem to be to be a waste of space or stall the momentum of the movie at all, because, yes, we have a few laughs with the locals, but it's interspersed with the more serious business at hand. And the Ewoks actually prove useful, in ways that aren't totally ludicrous.

    Agree? Disagree?
  18. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Agreed!
  19. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Couldn't agree more!=D=

    That's faulty logic. It's like saying the Clones can't Attack because they didn't attack at the beginning of AotC or the Sith can't have Revenge because they didn't obtain revenge at the beginning of RotS.

    Not true. Luke wasn't a Jedi Knight at the beginning of RotJ, but he was a Jedi Padawan at the beginning of RotJ. So, return could apply to Luke. I've always been in the "return of the order in the form/person of Luke" camp. Never thought it applied to Anakin. Killing 1 Sith Lord to save his son means there was good in him, but it doesn't make him a Jedi again.

    Back on topic:
    The fact that Luke is the only Jedi to be knighted by a Sith Lord adds to how bada$$ RotJ is.
  20. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    I agree because I felt - and still do - that Star Wars, ESB, and ROTJ are centered around Luke Skywalker.

    AS a 10 year old boy, the movie poster was pretty much screaming out - "Luke is back in action and returning to settle the score." I don't even remember seeing Darth Vader on the damn movie posters that were everywhere ....

    For 3 years we waited wondering what would happen to the Wonderboy Jedi in training - ROTJ was his return us fans - and oh what a magnificent return to action it was.

    That was the feel I got from the original post - a harkening back to a simpler time in 1983.
  21. EHT New Films Manager

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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I'll grant that Luke was a padawan at this point, despite the fact that the OT doesn't use that term... but that fact means that neither Yoda or Vader use that term in those scenes. They simply say Jedi, and say that Luke isn't one yet. Even Padme says in AOTC, "Anakin's not a Jedi yet, he's still a Padawan learner". I happen to disagree with her logic, but that's another example of a character drawing a distinction there.

    Regarding the "faulty logic" charge, it's not at all the same. If it makes it easier, forget that I said "at the beginning", because the point is the same. The clones attack at some point during AOTC. The sith get their revenge at some point during ROTS. The Empire strikes back at some point during TESB. But Luke does not return as a Jedi at any point during ROTJ, because he was never a Jedi before. The Jedi Order can return. The Jedi within Anakin can return. But Luke becomes a Jedi for the first time during ROTJ... so he, as a Jedi, cannot return from anywhere, nor can any Jedi within him return. He would have to be a Jedi already, or have been a Jedi at some point in the past, to be able to return. The logic is simple, but it does require that the viewer takes what other characters tell Luke (see above examples) at face value.
  22. QsAssistant Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 2
    While I understand what you are getting at, I still disagree with you. When the OT was made it was about Luke and his journey, not Vader and his redemtion. If you remember, the original title to "Return of the Jedi" was "Revenge of the Jedi", as in Luke and/or the Jedi as a group getting their revenge. GL changed the title because Jedi's don't take revenge.
    Now you might say that Vader did get revenge, as a Jedi, when he killed the Emporer but you can't. We wouldn't know why Vader would be getting revenge until ROTS would be released and we see the Emporer trick Anakin into joining the dark side. At the time the OT was released all we knew was that the Emporer turned Anakin to the dark side but we didn't know how. "Revenge of the Jedi" would have been Luke getting his revenge, not Vader. So hence the title of "Return of the Jedi" is refurring to Luke and/or the Jedi returning.

    Anyway lets get back on topic please. "Return of the Jedi" is a great film but it ranks at third, sometimes fourth, for me. In order I like ESB, ANH, ROTJ, ROTS (this one and ROTJ switch sometimes), AOTC, TPM.
  23. EHT New Films Manager

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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Getting the thread "back on topic" works both ways.

    Anyway, you can't really use the "Revenge of the Jedi working title" as support, because it isn't the final title of the movie, and it was changed for a reason. True, the main reason is said to be that Lucas decided a Jedi wouldn't seek revenge, but there could have been other elements of the idea that disagreed with the intended theme too. It's also been said that the earlier working title was just used to throw off the manufacturers of counterfeit merchandise, so there's that too.

    Regarding "Luke and/or the Jedi Order"... well, that "or" is significant, because I've been saying that I think the Jedi Order is one of the things the title refers to (the other being Anakin, of course). Anyway, you guys don't need to get upset and think anybody hates Luke, because I don't. :p
  24. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I'll forget you said "at the beginning" and that just furthers the faulty logic because Luke becomes a Jedi Knight at the climax of the movie and RETURNS to his friends in triumph, having completed his quest, redeemed his father, and saved the galaxy. Pretty sweet return to me.


    I always took what they said at face value, but to me it has always been clear that they meant a full-fledged Jedi Knight. It was clear that Luke was a Jedi-in-training (apprentice) as of TESB, and maybe even as of ANH.

  25. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    The fact that Luke is the only Jedi to be knighted by a Sith Lord adds to how bada$$ RotJ is.

    I never even thought of it that way! You're saying Vader was responsible for Luke's passage into knighthood by helping him defeat Palpatine, right? Interesting...

    I like your thoughts, too, BigBoy. I wasn't even born when ROTJ came out, so I missed that cliffhanger sensation after ESB (in fact, I saw ROTJ before any of the other SW films). But I still had the same feeling when watching the OT in order - in ROTJ, Luke was back in action, and he meant business. Despite my assertion that Luke was a "wimp" in my original post, that was meant to be humorous...but it had a grain of truth. He was very much a "Luke 2.0" in ROTJ, and everybody knew it. :cool:
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