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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series The Rule of 2, Ventress, Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by clvlandboy, Apr 28, 2017.

  1. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    It has existed, for a very long time at that.
     
  2. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    Oxymorons exist.
     
  3. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Hey, I never said the term was particularly smart. :p
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Terms and statements, yes.
     
  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Do jumbo shrimp exist?
     
    DARTH-BADGUY likes this.
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    This guy says Ventress was a dark Force user and at least once a Jedi.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    That guy is correct.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There are only supposed to be two Sith Lords. Not quite the same thing. And Maul proved that there could be 3.

    I think that the term "Sith" can be used for anyone trained in the "Sith ways" - not just the Lords.

    Even better examples of "dark Force users" who thought of themselves as Jedi, with the Order also thinking of him as a Jedi until he revealed himself to have betrayed the Order's tenets - Jedi Master Krell, Jedi Master Dooku (after arranging the murder of Sifo-Dyas but before declaring himself one of the Lost Twenty) and Jedi Master Quinlan Vos.

    During the period where they are Dark, yet have not yet been revealed, expelled, killed, etc - and have not become Sith Lords, the term "Dark Jedi" sounds to me as good as any.
     
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Maul ceased to be a Sith ever since he was replaced. He just kept playing pretend until he was caught.

    Fallen Jedi is much more appropriate. They were Jedi once and have fallen from their ways.

    Dark Jedi, like Gray Jedi, are oxymorons. Ridiculous examples of nomenclature.
     
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  10. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    He was not replaced since he was not dead. Sidious broke the Bane Sith rule post Naboo, unintentionally. He was never quite able to actually replace him as his Sith Apprentice. Vader came closest to filling the spot..until his fall on Mustafar.

    Darth Sidious :

    A long, long time ago, there were many Sith. We rose up against the simpering Light... We warred with the Jedi... And lost as we also warred against our own kind. For a thousand years we have kept to the shadows, not afraid of the Jedi -- but ourselves. The Dark Side is powerful. It is too powerful. The weak will meekly stand in regimented Order. The Sith... One Master. One Apprentice. For Generations. Generations building to me. I am the first to restore the Sith to their rightful place in the Galaxy. As we planned, the Jedi thought the Sith were gone, we were so inconsequential. The pomp of the Jed was insufferable. I set the Galaxy aflame, my apprentice. I have purged my weakness and impurity. From the ashes, we would have a new age. I learned from the mistakes of my forebears, I used those who were not Sith to achieve my aims. And my Apprentices? Darth Maul was a loss, but Darth Tyranus... He was a Proton Torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone... I had a... Superior candidate in mind... We did it, Vader. The Jedi destroyed! The Republic a shattered corpse for me to resurrect as a puppet! And you Vader -- the boy transformed into the man you were destined to be... And then Mustafar. Your failure there jeopardized everything. There was so much more to do. In these most vital decades, I needed an Apprentice with might. I sought, of course. I found candidates -- but none sufficient. Some with vision but no ambition. Some fractured souls who I molded to serve a smaller purpose... But all insufficient for the legacy of the Sith. For the Empire to live, Darth Vader had to live. I turned to Scientists. The best. The boldest. The ones more akin to the Sith than their Jedi-like peers. Cylo was among them."






    Since Maul was neither killed nor officially renounced being a Sith Lord from Naboo to Mandalore, he was able to create a Sith splinter group with Savage Opress or he could've done the same with Ezra or whoever he wanted as his Sith Apprentice . You don't cease to become a Sith until after a self disavow of some kind or the Sith Lord dies. Maul only formerly self renounces being a Sith Lord some 16 years after the Clone War, when he discarded the "Darth" title . He was still Darth Maul in Son of Dathomir and still a Sith Lord. Ezra stilled referred to Maul as Darth Maul right up to end of Rebels , to the Bendu. So its unclear if just how un-Sith or un-Darth he truly was.

    Maul was a fully trained & actual Sith Lord, with or without the "Darth" title, it did not matter. He had what he needed, no further training or title mattered. Ventress was never a Darth and thus never an actual Sith. She was not was trained as a Sith Apprentice unlike Savage by Maul. She was an apprentice of Dooku's but not a Sith Apprentice, which is a specific thing with specific details ect. She was trained as his personal assassin which was more akin to the Hands of the Emperor or Dark Side Elite in the EU. The Rite of Ordination never fell upon Ventress like it did with Savage by Darth Maul.

    Ventress was a Dark Jedi, trained in the dark arts, evil Jedi. She was a former Jedi padawan( to Ky Narec) and she later was trained to use the Dark Side by Sith Lord Darth Tyranus(Count Dooku). Vos occupies a shady area between Savage and Ventress, but he too was not ordained a Darth was not not identified as a Sith Lord, unlike Maul who bestowed it upon Savage.

    Savage so far is the only unique exception of being a Sith, but not a Darth(unless one includes Maul of Rebels). Vos and Ventress fell into the dark whatever, dark jedi, dark acolyte , dark disciple dark side assassin but not dark lords.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Given that the Databank calls Savage Dooku's "Sith apprentice" it's possible that, the moment Dooku started training him, Dooku started calling him a Sith. If you don't have to be "The Sith Master" to create more Sith (and a Sith Apprentice like Dooku or Maul can do it too - with the "Rule of Two" being nothing official - just a guideline) - then Savage's claim to Sithhood goes right back to his apprenticeship with Dooku.

    Palpatine says to Dooku "I would hate to think you are training your own apprentice to replace me" - with Savage, that is exactly what Dooku does. It's possible that he was doing so with Ventress too - just a bit less formally than he was with Savage.

    I believe the theory is that Maul, by losing so spectacularly to Obi-Wan (and then going mad) forfeited his Sithhood (allowing Palpatine to disavow him and replace him with Dooku)- and that, even after Talzin restored him, he was only a pretend Sith:
    - I disagree with that theory though.
     
  12. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Sidious did not know Maul was alive post Naboo(nor did the Jedi), he believed him dead. In order for that fan theory to even be a theory, Sidiouis would've had suspected or known that Maul survived which he did not. Ergo he broke the rule himself unintentionally. One can even get a lil bit of suspicion that perhaps because Sidious betrayed the rule, the dark Side was striking back at him, as part of the theme is also Sidious's quest to find a new apprentice after Darth Maul. Which he was never quite successful at right up to the end and eventually Vader betrays and assassinates him and Sidious destroys Vader and thus the Sith destroyed themselves. Perhaps one can go back further and that karma was after Sidious for betraying and murdering Plagueis in his sleep.


    Ventress(and Opress) is described as such:

    Sidious: There is a disturbance in the force.
    Your assassin, she has become very powerful.

    Dooku: Yes, my lord.
    She is quite important to me.

    Sidious: Too important.

    Dooku: Master

    Sidious: Silence.
    I can sense her powers growing stronger.
    I would hate to think you are training your own sith apprentice to destroy me.

    Dooku: Never.
    My allegiance is to you and you alone.

    Sidious: Then you must prove it.
    Eliminate her.

    Dooku: She's my most trusted


    Sidious: I said eliminate her!

    Dooku: As you wish, my lord.


    [...]


    Talzin: You have heard of the sith warrior Darth Maul, have you not?

    Dooku: Yes, he was slain on Naboo at the hand of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Talzin: A few still remain in his bloodline.
    The men dwell on the far side of Dathomir.
    What if I could provide another of his kind?

    Dooku: A warrior of the same caliber?

    Talzin: Yes, but I warn you.
    Men are easy to acquire, hard to control.

    Dooku: With my last assassin, Asajj Ventress, dead and the jedi's attacks against me increasing.
    Procuring a new personal assassin is essential.

    Talzin: Very well.
    It shall be done, my Lord.

    Ventress: So he has agreed to take another apprentice A barbarian, no less.



    So she was always described as an "assassin". Her powers growing was becoming a threat to Sidious, she could've potentially have become a Sith Apprentice as she was dangerously close, but not quite there. Which also brings back the Hand's of the EU, where if they ever became too strong and powerful and threatened Sidious or the Rule, they would have to be eliminated or a Sith Lord would have to make his move against with the Apprentice or the Master, whoever is plotting what.



    Dooku: I shall teach you[Opress] the ways of the dark side.
    Soon your powers will rival that of the great sith Lord Darth Maul.
    We will be even more powerful than Lord Sidious.
    We shall rule the galaxy together, my apprentice.


    Savage Opress only eventually completed his first stages of training on Sorreno before he's sent on his mission to Toydaria. After he kills the king, Dooku attempts to destroy Savage for his failure. So at no point was Savage an actual Sith apprentice under him, he was just grooming him as that apprentice assassin replacement, trained in the Jedi arts as well as trained to use the Dark Side. Grievous was trained in the Jedi arts by Count Dooku too but he was certainly not an Sith or Dark Jedi, just another trained assassin.

    Its not even clear if Opress created his own lightsaber, and same with Ventress. These weapons may of been bestowed upon them by Dooku. Dooku revered Maul obviously, the Sith Lord that destroyed his own former apprentice, Jinn. Both Savage and Ventress used a double-bladed lightsaber, and both have that Dooku style prong at the end of the emitter. Later on Ventress has to use the blackmarket to procure a new lightsaber, rather than create her own. Which is rather strange, since he trained under Ky Nerec, unless he gave her his prior padawan's lightsaber who may of died. But usually creating your own lightsaber is a big deal.

    Claiming lightsaber's of a beaten foe or a gift of a fallen warrior also seems equally important, Barriss who was an child to young adult trained Jedi padawan claimed Ventress' lightsabers, and Maul claimed and made his own from an Inquisitor's lightsaber. Both Luke and Rey are handed or gifted Anakin's lightsaber.

    But its only under Maul, Savage goes through the full range of Sith training .

    Maul:To continue, we need one singular vision my vision.

    Savage: Brother, let us share our strength.
    There is no need for dominance between us.


    Maul: Always two there are, my brother, a master and an apprentice, and you are the apprentice.
    So it is time for a lesson.


    Savage: You have grown so powerful.


    Maul: And I shall complete your training, not as your brother but as your master.


    Remember also in the episode "Revival" Kenobi referred to both Savage and Darth Maul as Sith to both that Snivvian space station guy and later to Hondo, to the Jedi apparently they toss in anyone with a red lightsaber & working as a partner or for a known or presumed Sith Lord as a Sith. So even Ventress was not unique in being mis-identified as a Sith in "Dark Disciple" by the Jedi Council. They have a rather loose inclusive definition despite they know of the Rule of Two(TPM). Maul never officially states what he is is, or what Savage and he is in "Revival", he uses the desceptive phrase to both differenciate themselves from the Jedi and identify themselves to their servants with:


    Jiro: What kind of Jedi are you?

    Maul We are not Jedi.
    We are lords, crime lords.




    Maul only officially proclaims Savage a true Lord of the Sith late in Season Five in the episode "Eminence".so at that point, and we could see his progress under Maul visibly, becomes a Sith Lord after "Revival". Which also seemed to have conincied with both Savage and Maul working not against eachother as early on, both as a team, as friends and brothers. Remember Maul stopped everything once Savage lost his arm, he Force pushed Kenobi and got the wounded Savage out've there. Maul's revenge against Kenobi right there stated to the audience blatantly that he was not interested in slaying Kenobi(which he obviously could've done many times over and in that moment was certainly obvious if there was any doubts otherwise) and his own apprentice and brother's well being was of greater significance to him as he got him out've there. Later on the bond and loyalty is reciprocated by Savage, he aids the damaged legged Maul to the ship and together they fight their way to safely. That right there was team work and brotherhood. Very un-Sith-like in Sidous's order and it differenaites Maul from Sidious. Later Maul does similar things with Ezra, like constantly saving his life, and even heading his worries about saving Ezra's friends as Maul did save Ahsoka and Kanan from the Inquisitors and did give Ezra the knowledge he needed to defeat the Nightsister ghouls. So there was something very much different going on.


    Maul: Savage ..

    Viszla: You're not Jedi.
    So what are you?

    Maul: We are Sith.
    Do you serve Count Dooku?

    Maul: I serve no one.


    Viszla: I thought there could only be two Sith; a master and an apprentice.

    Maul: We are brothers.
    The true Lords of the Sith.

    [...]

    Bo-Katan: We allied ourselves with Sith before.
    Count Dooku, he betrayed us. Sith are no better than Jedi.
    They claim to be powerful, but we put these two back together after the Jedi gutted them.


    Maul: Doubt will only lead to failure.


    Vizsla: Hold!

    Maul: Our combined strength will be rewarded.
    Mandalore will be yours, and Kenobi, this Sith pretender Dooku, and all our enemies will fall.
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    He was replaced even though he survived his injuries, so that's not a requirement. The moment he was replaced, he ceased to be a Sith. Sidious explained as much.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Sidious is extremely arrogant though - he might think Maul ceased to be a Sith the moment Sidious declared Dooku his apprentice - but that doesn't mean he's right.

    "You are no longer my apprentice - you have been replaced" - true.

    implied - "You are no longer Sith" - false - Sidious can't make that determination - only The Dark Side of the Force can.
     
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  15. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    No he never ceased being a Sith Lord, even after "The Lawless", in Son of Dathomir he was still a Sith Lord and Darth. Maul only on Rebels, some 16 years after the Clone War ended, does he himself discard the Darth title and at least views the current formal Sith Order of Two consisting of Sidious and Vader as his enemies. At least at face value he disavows the Sith, as he corrected the Sith minion Seventh Sister Imperial Inquisitor who addressed him in formal terms as Darth Maul, but this was also in front of the Jedi and part time Jedi Ahsoka. Maul also placed his faith in the Chosen One prophecy, the destroyer of the Sith at the end of his life and would effectively avenge him, his brother and even Kenobi and the Jedi.

    Being replaced means nothing, as actions speak louder than words. It is a requirement. Darth Maul is still a living and (pre)existing Dark Lord of the Sith and thus it becomes more a tale of two apprentices existing at the same time under Sith Rule of Bane, which its designed to forbid and it effectively breaks it. Does not matter what Sidious said, it means nothing, its verbal.

    Maul is a rival and threat to him and his existing order of two. Remember, its only when Sidious looks at Savage and realizes that Maul has trained a powerful Sith Apprentice of his own, that he fully grasps the situation first hand. Before that it more an aggressive reconnaissance mission to deduce that exactly is going on. It was also his first dealing with Maul since TPM to whom he otherwise underestimated and left to his own devises and for the Jedi to deal with, if they could. Once Maul defeated and broke Kenobi, thats when the power of the Dark Side drifted away from him and went to Maul. Maul could've also begun to train Kenobi. Maul could've done whatever he liked at that point. Sidious would have to finally eliminate Maul or take him back under his wing to control him once again, which would've placed Tyranus in a bad position as there could only be two - same went for Savage Opress even as Sidious is a strict adherent to the Rule as shown by him ordering Tyranus to eliminate Ventress as she was becoming too powerful and near Sith Apprentice level rivalry. It also weakens Tyranus's base since Sidious has designs on replacing him with Anakin, so he's setting things in motion to secure his own life and rule.

    The Sith Order is greater than any one being, its a religion of only two heads under Bane's proclamations and reformation. There was a time when there was many Sith Lords, so the rule is more a strict observance and tradition that both Sidious and Maul are direct inheritors of. Either Sith Lord can, if they wanted to break it. But it was something important to both Maul and more Sidious since thats the way they were brought up. Sidious more uses it as more a means to control and secure his position as Master and future Emperor where he has no intension of allowing his Sith Empire to be ruled by any one other than himself. So it did not matter if Maul remained, Maul would've have to have eventually killed Sidious or if Sidious died of natural causes, Maul would still have to fight the Empire. That is something Vader would have to do as well, with or with Luke or someone else. The Empire is not meant to live without Sidious. Thats very important.

    Maul followed the rule of two it more out've tradition as that was the way he brought up as a youngling to the time he was ordained a Sith Lord. He had no intension of killing his own brother after "Revival" as that was something he could've did there(like Savage did to Feral) & after "Eminence" they were more than just master and apprentice, they were brothers. This is further illustrated by Maul ignoring Sidious and going straight to aid of his falling brother to be by his side as he passes on at the end of "The Lawless".

    By SOD, he wanted to create a new order out've the roots of Dathomir, so by that time as Darth Maul as Dark Lord of the Sith, he no longer really needed the rule or placed any strict observance to it . Apparently he only looks to take an apprentice again by Rebels with Ezra, Maul brings up the Sith Code and immerses and trains Ezra in it, who he loosely trained and guided to have become his new Sith Apprentice, and he calls him apprentice but also friend and brother. So Maul was more anomaly as he was still the living Sith Lord that was fighting with the Sith. And Maul's connection to Malachor, a time when there was many Sith Lords, could bring some insight into his views and perhaps future plans or visions.

    Even before TPM, Maul may of be interested in taking his own Sith apprentice, as he's truly a Sith Lord, he already disobeys him and challenges his edicts . Sidious respects this behavior from his apprentices , even if he does not like it since it challenges him as this was shown in the Darth Vader comic. Sidious does not appear to like simple loyal servants, thats why he viewed Maul as a loss and Tyranus as disposable and he viewed Vader like he viewed Maul. The taking of the initiative and being aggressive and determined. Thats part of what being a Sith Apprentice or Sith Master consists of, all the constant tests, trials & plots.

    So replaced by someone just means there is a conflict and challenge occurring with the rule of two. Maul was prematurely suspected of being KIA and thus arose Dooku as Darth Tyranus which actually makes Dooku illegitimate - the Sith pretender and makes Sidious simply what he is, a great betrayer. Part of the theme for SOD was precisely over the Rule of Two and it did not have the desired outcome or other party since none of the actual Sith Lords died. Maul, Dooku and Vader have to be killed off inorder for the Sith Master to take a Sith Apprentice, which is exactly what Sidious did with Tyranus, tried but failed to do with Maul(twice) and attempted to do with Vader(replacement after his fall on Mustafar and later to replace Vader with Luke as his new apprentice. Darth Maul was still a Sith Lord, even if a rogue one officially under Sidious' edict. So replacement does not mean somehow ceasing being. A Sith Apprentice is not like a Jedi padawan/apprentice, they're more akin to a Jedi Master, they can take their own apprentice and train that apprentice to become a rival Sith by giving that apprentice the full training of a Sith Lord and challenging the rule . We saw the rivalry and challenge. Maul only self discards the Darth title himself on Rebels, but he trains Ezra under the Sith code. Vader post ANH actively seeks to rival and challenge Sidious by using Luke, but his plans get foiled by ROTJ and he becomes more like Dooku until the very end, where Anakin finally rises up within and saves his son by assassinating Sidious from behind.
     
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  16. choccy

    choccy Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Taking the rule of two literally, it says there can be only 2, a master and an apprenctice.

    Sidious was the Master to Maul and to Dooku etc however, Dooku was the master to Ventress, so strictly speaking, their are only 2, a master and an apprentice in these cases.

    All from a certain point of view of course ;)
     
  17. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Palpatine, whether Canon or Legends, never seemed to follow the Rule of Two, and I suppose that it could be argued that once he declared his (Sith) Empire, he really didn't need to. The Rule of Two was designed for Sith in hiding, who needed to stay undiscovered by the Jedi, using their positions as unknown Sith to plant the seeds of chaos and corruption in the Galaxy. During the Clone Wars, Sidious with the Sith once more known to be running around the Galaxy, Sidious never needed to suppress the Dark Side. He could have as many followers and "apprentices" as he needed. He just didn't want Dooku becoming gaining too much power. That was the only reason he had Dooku get rid of Ventress. After the war, with the Jedi Order essentially extinct, he no longer feared any kind of fight from rivals. He Had crushed Maul's insurgency, and was building his own army of Dark Siders who could be dispatched to any corner of the Galaxy at his or Vader's need. Vader would never be able to overthrow Palpatine, he became vulnerable to any kind of electrical attack. All Palpatine had to do was use the Force to turn off his breathing apparatus, and that would be the end of any rebellion Vader could muster. And it's not like Palpatine would allow Vader to personally make any of the Inquisitors exceptionally powerful either.
     
  18. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005

    Where are you getting that from? Palpatine always followed the rule of two. He only had one apprentice at a time. Sure there were minions that were force sensitive, but none of them were truly Sith apprentices.
     
  19. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Your failure there jeopardized everything. There was so much more to do. In these most vital decades, I needed an Apprentice with might. I sought, of course. I found candidates -- but none sufficient. Some with vision but no ambition. Some fractured souls who I molded to serve a smaller purpose... But all insufficient for the legacy of the Sith. For the Empire to live, Darth Vader had to live. I turned to Scientists. The best. The boldest. The ones more akin to the Sith than their Jedi-like peers. Cylo was among them."


    Sidious does keep protégées around, like Rax and Clyo . Rax was molded as a young boy almost like an apprentice, cept he was not a Force sensitive.
     
  20. Grievpalpy75

    Grievpalpy75 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    He could have also referred to the inquisitors though.
     
  21. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    Dark Jed is too much of a "catch-all" term. I don't like it as it's far too easy to label all Dark-Siders as "Dark Jedi". I much prefer the term "Fallen Jedi". This term can only be applied to actual Jedi, be they Padawans, Knights or Masters that have fallen to the Dark Side. It's better to assign specific monikers to other types of Dark-Siders, depending on their alignment and training.

    Mother Talzin could be called a Nightsister, a Dark-Side Witch.

    The Son would be a Celestial, a Dark Side Entity.

    Kylo Ren would be a Dark-Side Warrior.

    It's better to come up with specific terms for Dark Force-wielders. To call them all "Dark Jedi" is too generic, and to be honest, a bit lazy.
     
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  22. The Shadow Emperor

    The Shadow Emperor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2012
    If Dark Jedi is a thing, then I reserve the right to call Ahsoka a Light Sith.
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    'Dark Jedi' ceased to be a thing, fortunately. Let's hope they keep it that way.