The Rule of 2

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthBellikose, May 19, 2003.

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  1. DarthBellikose Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2003
    star 1
    Everyone knows the Sith "Rule of 2" but where did this rule originate ? Was it from the Jedi. It's never been associated with the Jedi but in TPM when Qui Gon tells the Council that he will take Anakin as his Padawan Yoda informs him that "An apprentice you have, impossible to take on a second". Mace then tells him that "The code Forbids it". Does this mean that the Jedi have had problems with the "Rule on 2" in the past???
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    DarthBellikose - You're talking about two rules here:

    The Rule of Two originated from Darth Bane (I believe) who said that there couldn't be anymore than two Sith active in the galaxy at a time: A Master and an Apprentice.

    The second rule is that a Master can have only one apprentice at a time, and I'm quite sure it originated somewhere within the ranks of the Jedi, themselves.

    Aunecah
  3. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
    --George Lucas
  4. KenKenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 6
    Alright...here we go. [face_mischief]

    An ancient brotherhood of Jedi Knights split from the ranks of the "lightsiders" when access to the ancient Sith lore was forbidden. The Jedi Council feared that the knowledge of harnessing the Dark Side of the Force would be twisted and used to perform many evil acts. The Sith brotherhood was founded some 2,000 years before the Battle of Yavin by a rogue Jedi Knight who yearned to learn more of the Dark Side of the Force. Together with about 50 followers, this rogue fled the Old Republic and established his own Sith order.


    Here's where the "one apprentice at a time" rule comes into play.

    Many of the corrupted followers of the rogue Jedi that formed the Sith and established the Sith Order were Padawans, many of which whose Master had another apprentice or two. After the Great Sith War and the "assumed" extinction of the Sith, the Jedi Council enacted a rule in which a Master could only have one Padawan at a time, thus giving a more "personal" relationship to the apprenticeship and enabling for more time spent with the Padawan as to help keep him/her from corruption.


    Now, back to the founding on the Sith Order.

    With galactic domination on their agenda, these new Sith Lords quickly became distrustful of each other and abusive of their dark side powers. In a short time, they had nearly wiped themselves out again.

    One Sith Lord remained, a man by the name of Darth Bane. He swore that the Sith would never again vanish from the galaxy, but also made certain that they never grew beyond their means. He established a rigid code by which there could only be a single Sith Lord and a single Sith apprentice. When the Lord finally expired, his current apprentice was promoted and allowed to take his own student.



    The pairing continued until Darth Sidious took Maul as his apprentice, and we all know what happens from there.


    ;) :)

    Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day ;)
  5. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    So what did the sith do for a thousand years? Sit around and pick their nose? Training for nothing and dieing very secluded, uneventful lives?
  6. Darth-Lando Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    The Sith were just waiting until the time was right to take down the Jedi. Slowly amassing their own power. Sidious just happpend to be the Master when the time was right. It talks about this in either Cloak of Deception or Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, I can't remember which.
  7. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    I dunno, it doesn't make since for them to just do nothing. We're talking about generations of Sith, devoting their lives to the Darkside for absolutely no reason. They might as well sit around and smoke spice all day!
  8. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    They were waiting for the right time. It was their overconfidence that led to their downfall before, so the new Sith tried to ease off a bit, not wanting to start Sith wars again. However, it was overconfidence that killed off the Sith in ROTJ...
  9. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    They weren't doing nothing, in fact I wouldn't be surprised of a lot of the circumstances that led to Palpatine being in the Galactic Senate and representing the Naboo system were engineered by previous Sith Lords.

    It was just a case of doing things quietly, slowly, in the background.
  10. A-WingsRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, I like that idea. :d
  11. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    IMHO - Of course they weren't doing nothing. Just because they didn't take over the galaxy did not mean that they were planning their own little traps. However, since the rule is that the apprentice kills the Master to become the Knight ... and then takes an apprentice, it's possible that no Sith ever actually managed to take over the galaxy before (s)he died.

    Aunecah
  12. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    it's possible that no Sith ever actually managed to take over the galaxy before (s)he died.

    Are you taking into account the Sith Lord Sidious? He took over the galaxy.

    So what were the sith doing, oh say 300 years after their "extinction?" Sittin around, hangin out?

    The only reasonable thing they could do was help Jedi disapear when they were out on long missions.
  13. KenKenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 6
    lord_zahl: So what did the sith do for a thousand years? Sit around and pick their nose? Training for nothing and dieing very secluded, uneventful lives?

    So what were the sith doing, oh say 300 years after their "extinction?" Sittin around, hangin out?



    Well, the idea of "not doing anything" throughout this time was actually needed.

    As was already seen, if the Sith simply "ran amuck" with their inherent "evilness", they would destroy themselves.

    Recognizing that the Sith order was doomed to fail if it became too large, Bane waited until all the other Sith were destroyed by their brethren or the Jedi Knights, then established a set of rules that were dominated by the pretense that there could only be two Sith active in the galaxy at any time: a Master and an apprentice.

    Eventually, Bane took his own apprentice, and set his new order in motion. Future Sith Lords were taught the virtues of patience, planning, and secrecy. They had patience to wait for the right time to reveal themselves (TPM - AOTC - Episode III), they planned how to destroy the Jedi (Palpatine rising to power, the Jedi Purge, and the establishment of the Empire), and they used secrecy to hide their presence from the Jedi until the time was right.

    TPM- Recognizing the Jedi were increasingly becoming involved in more political and Republic affairs rather than the Order as a whole, Sidious and Maul saw this as a weak spot and decided to strike.

    AOTC- Count Dooku, taking Maul's place, furthers Sidious's plans (and, in turn, the Sith's) by forming the Confederacy and starting the Clone Wars

    *** POSSIBLE EP. III SPOILER WARNING BELOW ***

















    Episode III- Based on speculation, Darth Vader will finalize the Sith's destruction of the Jedi, Palpatine will come to power in the form of the Sith Lord Sidious and bring about the rise of the Empire.




















    *** END SPOILER ***



    But, of course, we all know that good triumphs over evil, so Darth Vader turns back to the Light Side and the Sith are destroyed (as reiterated from my first post).


    Besides, they didn't really sit around and do nothing.


    When Darth Bane emerged from Freedon Nadd's tomb on the Sith moon Dxun, he began to consider the fall of his Sith brothers at Ruusan, and decided that Sith were their own worst enemy.

    He therefore, as the last Sith Lord, established the "Rule of Two", where the Sith numbers would be limited (one Master and one Apprentice), their existance would be absolutely secret, and their focus would be on one thing- destroying the Jedi and the Republic.


    The Sith, as a very disciplined Order (read Darth Maul: Saboteur/ and Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter to see what I mean ;) ), follow these rules as their entire lifestyle. As much as the Dark Side power rules them, they manipulate it to their own will, never revealing themselves.


    Now they don't just "sit around" and do nothing- they carry out missions (assassinations, sabotage, genocide, etc.) to help weaken the Republic and the Jedi to the point at which they can reveal themselves, destroy the Jedi, and rid the galaxy of the Republic (again, read Darth Maul: Saboteur and Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter to get a glimpse at how the Sith carry out such "missions")

    They do this for an estimated 948 years, the end of which time Palpatine becomes the Dark Lord of the Sith and the plan comes to fruition- as stated above, the Republic falls and the Jedi are exterminated.


    ;) :)


    Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day ;)
  14. Lord_Ogli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2001
    star 4
    That isn't a spoiler, it a for gone conclusion.
  15. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    lorn_zahl: Are you taking into account the Sith Lord Sidious? He took over the galaxy.

    I thought it was clear that I was talking about the Sith before Sidious - after Bane.

    Aunecah
  16. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Ahhhh my mistake bud.


    The sith must have done a little something here and there for a thousand years.

    To tell yall the truth I wish there wasn't a rule of 2. I'd like to see a battle along the lines of "Brave Heart" with Sith and Jedi running towards each other with lightsabers.


    It'll never happen, but I can dream and write fanfic that no one will read....

    peace out guys!

    :)


  17. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    lorn_zahl ? that was indeed the case a thousand and more years before TPM, but then one very clever Sith Lord realized that having too many power-hungry Sith around only brought down the entire Order. Hence he made the rule of two. ;)

    Aunecah
  18. DarthBellikose Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2003
    star 1
    Some good points here averyone. Another I want to pickup on here is that Sidious was responsible for the near extermination of the Jedi. We know that it has been fallen Jedi who have become Sith (Bane, Kun, Vader etc..) Was Sidious's plan to also make sure that no other Sith would be able to exist with the Jedi gone? He would be the last Sith lord ?
  19. Thurkon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2003
    "But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    Yay! More Lucas logic!

    If there's "more than two" the apprentice will try to become the leader with his apprentice? That's the risk? Why wouldn't the apprentice want to be the leader if there were just two?? Why would he NOT kill the leader? Because he needs an apprentice? An apprentice who will eventually want to (not) take over his leadership with his apprentice????

    What???

    Rule of 2 is ridiculous. The Sith, I guess, prefer to be horribly outnumbered by the good Jedi during the 1000 years of the Republic?
  20. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Thurkon - Probably because the apprentice is not (supposed to be) stronger than the Master - when the apprentice becomes stronger, (s)he kills the Master and becomes the Master, (herself)himself. So there's nothing wrong with the Rule of Two.

    Aunecah
  21. Thurkon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2003

    Everything is wrong with the Rule of two...not to mention it is anti-climactic!

    How cool would it be to NOT know how many potential dark Jedi are out there, working for what was thought to be an extinct Sith order? There could be traitors everywhere. But instead...nope, only two. What's more...there's a Rule of Two. Can't be more than two ever. What's MORE...the Jedi know there's only two.

    Exciting.

    So what if a Jedi turns to the dark side and wants to join the Sith? Does Dooku have a meeting with them and say: "Sorry, we're not taking applications at this time. Have all the dark Jedi we need. Perhaps if one of us gets cut in half you can re-apply at a later time..."

    So, to keep the Sith from going extinct you LIMIT the number to two? Whaaa? Greed and envy and ambition is always a part of evil and the dark side, whether you have an organization of 2 or 2 million. Limiting it to two isn't going to prevent that.

  22. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Thurkon: Is there anything you like about Star Wars?

    Furthermore, I agree that it would be cooler with out the rule of 2 but I guess it makes the duels a little more climactic.

    Plus if there were a bunch of Sith running around they would be killing each other while the Jedi would be taking them out like fish in a barrel.

    The Sith owe it all to the rule of 2.
  23. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    Darth Bane invented the Rule of 2. If you'd seen your entire culture wiped out by infighting wouldn't you try to do something to rectify it? The Prophecy removes any need for Sith armies: they destroyed themselves for nothing. A time would come when the Dark Side would grow stronger than the Light, then the Sith could act at will. Preservation of Sith ways and vengeance on the Jedi take a back seat to personal ambition - but only if there's a level-headed Dark Lord who knows enough to keep from repeating old mistakes. Palpatine has it all ways, which is a great twist.

    I actually see this as very well thought out logic.
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Has anyone brought up the possibility that the Sith were exterminated thousands of years ago, and have been brought back only recently by Sidious?

    It would explain why the Force is suddenly out of balance, and also why Sidious seems to go through so many apprentices. He's pretty good unto himself, but treats even his own underlings as mere tools to serve him, rather than a means to continue some "silly" Sith tradition that died out long ago.

    (It would also make more sense in terms of the "what the hell have the Sith been doing for a thousand years" question.)
  25. OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 3
    Good thoughts, MeBe......


    It's pretty obvious that Darth Sideous has very little loyalty to his star pupil Darth Vader when an upgrade in the Skywalker line of downfallen force users becomes available.

    I also think that it's not very feasable to think the Sith have been hiding out for 1000 years & causing havoc in a quiet way without ever being noticed.

    Remember TPM?

    "Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight? We will not survive this."

    To think EVERY encounter between a Sith & a Jedi resulted in the Sith being able to remain unnoticed is a bit too much. ONE Jedi never escasped a trap in 1000 years?

    Nobody ever saw a guy in a black hooded cloak & rotted flesh & lived to report it?

    Qui-Gon runs into Darth Maul & in 2 minutes comes to the conclusion that the guy's a Sith warrior.....

    So what if a Jedi turns to the dark side and wants to join the Sith? Does Dooku have a meeting with them and say: "Sorry, we're not taking applications at this time. Have all the dark Jedi we need. Perhaps if one of us gets cut in half you can re-apply at a later time..."

    :D :D :D :D

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