The Rule of Two is a Con

Imagine this:

It's 500 years before TPM, you're a Sith Master, you desperately want to take over the galaxy and subjugate everyone to your evil will. Only you can't, the time isn't right. So instead you pass the baton onto your apprentice and hope that he'll get the chance to take over the galaxy.

Apparently that's how the Sith operated for 1000 years.

Bull.
Evil doesn't work this way, it's not altruistic, it's greedy. it's selfish. If you're evil you want power for yourself not for the next generation.

Problem:
It's a 1000 years ago and you want to take over the galaxy, problem is the time isn't right, you're gonna have to lay low, be patient, manipulate events unseen etc. and wait patiently for hundreds of years,

But how do you transcend the generations?

You take an apprentice, and train him until he's given himself over completely to the darkside and your will.
Then he is yours and when your body is too old you take his.

There's really only One Sith and has been for 1000 years. But by the time the apprentice realises this it's too late.

Well that's my theory anyway.

If anyone else can explain how generations of Sith lived and died without taking what they desperately wanted please do.

g

 

Really, you think so?

I don't know. If there's like, some general Sith spirit, maybe- but I don't think all of them have been one guy... not that I have any proof to disprove your theory. Good job. I just don't think I believe it. I may need further convincing...

 

But there are still TWO Sith at a time

I like the theory, explains why Palps had back up clones, Vaders body was useless to him.

But I like the rule of two even more, have you presented this idea in the Lit forum yet?

 

Well I think it's been one guy since the Sith apparently got beaten a thousand years ago.

I've come to this conclusion because I can't think of any other way to explain it.
How can generations of Sith live and die and do nothing?
Evil is greedy and selfish. If you were a Sith would you be content to have lived your life training, wanting revenge and then just dying and hoping that the next generation does it.

It'd make no sense.

g

 

Evil doesn't work this way, it's not altruistic, it's greedy. it's selfish. If you're evil you want power for yourself not for the next generation.

That's a very good point. However, I wouldn't say the last Sith for 1000 generations have been exactly powerless. Palpatine, for example, held tremendous power long before his ultimate rise to Emperor. It makes sense to me that those before him held similar positions, excercizing great influence, not simply for the continutation of the Sith Order, but for benefit to themselves personally, as well.

Let's also consider Sith knowledge. We don't know much about this, but it's more than simply a sect of dark Jedi. The Sith possess secrets which allow them to use the darkside with greater power, or so I recall, giving them incredible personal power, if not political domination.

 

This is probably better discussed in the Lit forum.

Or maybe not.

 

Back in the day this was the PERFECT discussion for EUC. Congrats for thinking this one up gezvader.


Personally, I recognise the dilemma in that we usually identify the "evil" people, or the "dark" individuals in a stereotyped light. This indeed, is the essence of Lucas' Force, in that Jedi or Sith conform to predetermined norms that paint them as light or dark, good or evil.

But we must remember that within such characterisations is a lot of scope, and central to that range is the eternal axiom uttered by Obi-Wan, oft abused but here well used; "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

The Sith in passing on the legacy were not being altruistic, they were being survivors, they were ensuring that their legacy would NOT be taken, their power base WOULD be preserved, and better yet, could grow. If we look at many of the examples of Sith that failed and were killed, we notice that they struck out too soon, too early, and were too confident in their strength. The DARK side had too rapidly consumed them, and they were unable to stem the flow.

Then we have the epitome of success, HIM Palpatine. What seperated him? An infinite control, a patience that only succumed to the ravages of the Dark Side nearing the end of his gambit, with his rule basically assured. (If not for the meddling Skywalker and his "insignifigant rebellion".)

The key is patience, it is the creedo by which the Sith Order lived, and from a certain point of view it CAN be reconciled with the innate rapaciousness of the Dark Side from a certain point of view, as in the long term, it serves the greed of the Sith, and is the ultimate instruement of their glory.

 

Imagine this:

It's 500 years before TPM, you're a Sith Master, you desperately want to take over the galaxy and subjugate everyone to your evil will. Only you can't, the time isn't right. So instead you pass the baton onto your apprentice and hope that he'll get the chance to take over the galaxy.

Apparently that's how the Sith operated for 1000 years.

Bull.
Evil doesn't work this way, it's not altruistic, it's greedy. it's selfish. If you're evil you want power for yourself not for the next generation.

Problem:
It's a 1000 years ago and you want to take over the galaxy, problem is the time isn't right, you're gonna have to lay low, be patient, manipulate events unseen etc. and wait patiently for hundreds of years,

But how do you transcend the generations?

You take an apprentice, and train him until he's given himself over completely to the darkside and your will.
Then he is yours and when your body is too old you take his.

There's really only One Sith and has been for 1000 years. But by the time the apprentice realises this it's too late.

Well that's my theory anyway.

If anyone else can explain how generations of Sith lived and died without taking what they desperately wanted please do.


Sure, the Sith are evil, but the Sith are also smart.

Oh, and you're basing your logic on a stereotype - that evil is always greedy and selfish, and always wants for for itself. Why can't evil be preparing for the future? What's wrong with it?

The Sith became virtually extinct because they fought each other to the point where there was only one left. Darth Bane, the only one left, figured out that the only way for the Sith to survive was for there to be only two at a time, and the apprentice would become the master when the master died. None of the Sith until the Emperor, IIRC, knew how to transfer their souls into another person, and I seriously doubt they would have risked trying to transfer themselves into a body with another, fully developed mind already inside, hardened by the rigours of life. If it backfired, they get stabbed. And, even if an apprentice gives their mind completely over to the Dark Side, it doesn't mean that they're completely subservient and can be taken over at any time.

In any case, the Rule of Two worked, didn't it? The Sith rose, once they had accumulated enough power, and took over the galaxy. Had they tried any earlier, they would have failed and been killed, which is probably the last thing that anyone wants.

I_F

 

The Sith in passing on the legacy were not being altruistic, they were being survivors, they were ensuring that their legacy would NOT be taken, their power base WOULD be preserved, and better yet, could grow.

But as is established in the TPM novel - the Sith by their very nature couldn't agree on any ideals, they'd fight each other until only one was left.

Then we have the epitome of success, HIM Palpatine. What seperated him?

I think what seperated him is that he's been planning this for 1000 years, Palpy is just the latest in a series of people the Sith has taken over.

Oh, and you're basing your logic on a stereotype - that evil is always greedy and selfish, and always wants for for itself. Why can't evil be preparing for the future? What's wrong with it?

Well I'm basing it on what Lucas has said about evil, that it's greed. And the way the Sith are described as nearly wiping each other out.

The Sith became virtually extinct because they fought each other to the point where there was only one left. Darth Bane, the only one left, figured out that the only way for the Sith to survive was for there to be only two at a time, and the apprentice would become the master when the master died.

And what good is that to Bane? He wants to take over, but he'll never see it.
Unless....
he finds a way to transcend the generations.

And, even if an apprentice gives their mind completely over to the Dark Side, it doesn't mean that they're completely subservient and can be taken over at any time.

The darkside will consume you completely, as Vader said "I MUST obey my master".
And Palpy was confident enough to let Luke strike at him because he knew that Vader would stop it. Luke is there to replace Vader, and the Emp makes no secret of it, he isn't the least bit worried that Vader will turn on him.
Why?
Because he's done all this before, apprentices have come and gone, and he's used them all.

g

 

But as is established in the TPM novel - the Sith by their very nature couldn't agree on any ideals, they'd fight each other until only one was left.

That's what happened. And they took steps to ensure that it would never happen again.

I think what seperated him is that he's been planning this for 1000 years, Palpy is just the latest in a series of people the Sith has taken over.

Somehow, I don't quite think so - Palpatine doesn't seem THAT wise to me...


Well I'm basing it on what Lucas has said about evil, that it's greed. And the way the Sith are described as nearly wiping each other out.

Sure, they did nearly wipe themselves out. So they established strict rules to ensure it would never happen again. Smart, eh?

And what good is that to Bane? He wants to take over, but he'll never see it.
Unless....
he finds a way to transcend the generations.

Here's a little info about Darth Bane:

The great Darth Bane has recently been discovered among the Sith Archives. Details are sketchy, and his image has not yet been discovered. But, some facts have been found.

Darth Bane was a wise Dark Jedi and knew that patience, cunning, stealth, and subterfuge were great virtues. Thus, whilst the Sith Wars were raging on, Darth Bane stood aside and lay in concealment, waiting until the time was right.

Soon, the number of Sith dwindled greatly and the Jedi took advantage of this and pounced upon each individual Dark Jedi, cleaning up after the carnage. Soon, there was no one left, embracing the Dark Side of the Force. Or so they thought.

Soon after the Jedi had proclaimed the death of the Sith, Darth Bane came out of hiding. Since all of his colleagues were destroyed, he declared himself the Dark Lord of Sith and a new Order of Sith. This new order was designed to sustain Sith throughout millenia, having only two Dark Lords of Sith at a time: a Master and an Apprentice. Thus, there would be no inner conflict and they, the Sith, would be able to abide their time until they were able to fight back against the Jedi, whom he proclaimed the true enemy; not fellow Sith.

And thus, Darth Bane created a New Order and helped sustain the Sith throughout the years.

Not ALL Sith have to be consumed by greed. Bane was one who wasn't. He was smart. Notice this bit:

This new order was designed to sustain Sith throughout millenia, having only two Dark Lords of Sith at a time: a Master and an Apprentice. Thus, there would be no inner conflict and they, the Sith, would be able to bide their time until they were able to fight back against the Jedi, whom he proclaimed the true enemy; not fellow Sith.

Bane wasn't after galactic domination - he was after the Jedi. However, he couldn't do that when he was alive, and, as I said before, I don't think any] Sith, other than the Emperor, knew the ability to transfer a mind. Bane had in mind an order that would maintain the Sith and keep them alive, not cause them to become extinct.

The darkside will consume you completely, as Vader said "I MUST obey my master".
And Palpy was confident enough to let Luke strike at him because he knew that Vader would stop it. Luke is there to replace Vader, and the Emp makes no secret of it, he isn't the least bit worried that Vader will turn on him.
Why?
Because he's done all this before, apprentices have come and gone, and he's used them all.

Vader MUST obey his master because he's his master. Why do you think he says that? "Master" = "Boss", and the first thing you learn at a new job is obey the boss. The Emperor isn't the least bit worried that Vader will turn on him because Vader has served him for over twenty years and never betrayed him. If someone has been a close friend to you for over twenty years, you would trust them to stay on your side, wouldn't you? Same thing here. No need for silly mind transferences - it's just master and apprentice, boss and worker, orders-giver, and

 

Me - I think what seperated him is that he's been planning this for 1000 years, Palpy is just the latest in a series of people the Sith has taken over.

Iron Fist - Somehow, I don't quite think so - Palpatine doesn't seem THAT wise to me...

Well he'd better be, he's planning on taking out all the Jedi and dominating the whole galaxy.
He's not just a bad guy, he's the ultimate bad guy of the whole saga.

This new order was designed to sustain Sith throughout millenia, having only two Dark Lords of Sith at a time: a Master and an Apprentice. Thus, there would be no inner conflict and they, the Sith, would be able to bide their time until they were able to fight back against the Jedi, whom he proclaimed the true enemy; not fellow Sith.

Which brings me back to my original question:
It's 500 years before TPM, you're a Sith Master, you desperately want to take over the galaxy and subjugate everyone to your evil will. Only you can't, the time isn't right. So instead you pass the baton onto your apprentice and hope that he'll get the chance to take over the galaxy.
are you just going to die and never achieve your goal? Would a Sith be happy hoping that the next generation might do it?

Bane wasn't after galactic domination - he was after the Jedi. However, he couldn't do that when he was alive, and, as I said before, I don't think any] Sith, other than the Emperor, knew the ability to transfer a mind.

Same problem - Bane will never see it.
My assumption is that Sidious IS the same Sith that's been planning this for a 1000 years, if the Emperor knows how to transfer his mind then that's an excellent answer - he's been doing it down the generations.

If someone has been a close friend to you for over twenty years, you would trust them to stay on your side, wouldn't you? Same thing here. No need for silly mind transferences - it's just master and apprentice, boss and worker, orders-giver, and orders-follower.

I think it's a bit more than that. If I knew my boss was bringing in someone to kill me I don't think I'd happily go along with it.
The connection between Vader and the Emp is much more powerful than that, somewhere along the line the Emp offers Anakin something he simply must have, but the price is to be under the Emperor's power.

If the Sith have just been passing their 'ideals' onto generation after generation while never achieving their goal then it would fizzle out a lot sooner than 1000 years.

IMO this 1000 year old Sith realised that he had to wait a long time and manipulate events over a long period of time, but to do this requires some method of transcending the generations.

g

 

When you really think about it, the Sith act more altruistic than usual "bad guys". I can't think of specific examples, but I do remember something about the Sith having a devotion to evil similar to the Jedi devotion to good. If this is the case, they could easily be patient with their schemes.

 

I've no doubt they're devoted to evil, but they want power for themselves, that's what the power battles which occurred a 1000 years ago prove.
So the idea that some guy 10 generations down the line will get it rather than themself would be just as galling.

The idea that generations of Sith lived and died without achieving power just doesn't make sense.

However - it would be a good method for the 'One Sith' to achieve his goal if he's using each one as a vessel.

g

 

I've no doubt they're devoted to evil, but they want power for themselves, that's what the power battles which occurred a 1000 years ago prove.
So the idea that some guy 10 generations down the line will get it rather than themself would be just as galling.

The idea that generations of Sith lived and died without achieving power just doesn't make sense.

However - it would be a good method for the 'One Sith' to achieve his goal if he's using each one as a vessel.


The power battles a thousand years ago also proved that if there were too many Sith, they would destroy each other.

One thing that your theory doesn't state, IIRC, is how a master takes control of an apprentice. I've said before - as I recall, only Palpatine knew of the mind transference power out of all the Sith, except for Exar Kun, who managed to do it in some way. So, if none of the Sith knew how to take over an apprentice, how could they do it?

I_F

 

One thing that your theory doesn't state, IIRC, is how a master takes control of an apprentice. I've said before - as I recall, only Palpatine knew of the mind transference power out of all the Sith, except for Exar Kun, who managed to do it in some way. So, if none of the Sith knew how to take over an apprentice, how could they do it?

What does IIRC stand for?

IMO Palpy is the same Sith that's been waiting and planning for 1000 years, so if Palpy knows how to do the mind transfer thing then ...

I should clarify something - Palpatine used to be a normal human being, at some point he became the latest in a series of apprentices, eventually the 'One Sith' took him over. Maybe he hasn't been fully taken over as of Ep.2 yet but certainly by Ep.4 he has.

g

 

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.

Palpatine, in Darksaber, says that he stole the technique off a Jedi, and I think he also says that it was fairly recently, but I can't remember exactly. But, then again, he could be lying.

I suppose the biggest problem is that there's really no evidence against the theory, just stories and legends. It could be true, the only problem is that it runs against everything we know about the Sith. But it does actually make some sense...

I_F