PT The rule of two was a bad idea

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Sitara, Dec 22, 2012.

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  1. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    The Sith rule of two only came about in the 90's, and was supposedly to explain why Sidious did not have more apprentices.

    The EU explains this by saying the Sith consume each other when there are more of them. As with most things EU, this is a crock of bull IMO. The only reason Vader turned against Palpatine and threw him into the pit was because he had become a Jedi at that point; as long as he was a Sith he remained Sidious's lapdog.

    From a common sense POV it makes the Sith look completely stupid. Why would you only have 2 of your ancient order, when a tragedy (like a starship blown up by pirates or something like that) can wipe out your entire order and it's teachings.

    It would have been MUCH better IMO if there had been just as many Sith as Jedi in the PT. Sidious however, would have been a powerhungry and insidious sort, and in the end would have betrayed BOTH the Jedi and the Sith via Order 66, killing them all. He would not train anymore Sith because he would want all power for himself and not share it. He would keep Vader because his status as a Chosen One would please him, because he managed to turn the Jedi's most valuable asset against them, and Vader's constant presence and suffering would make Sidious happy and keep reminding him of his genius.

    So basically, the PT would show that it was only Palpatine who was a vile and conniving sort who would turn against his own kind and the Jedi in his lust for absolute power, not that every Sith is like that. If you believe the latter, as we have been led to believe, why the heck would any Sith train an apprentice, if he knows he is actually training his potential future violent and painful murderer?

    And wouldn't it have been awesome on Geonosis to have seen an army of Jedi take on an army of Sith, instead of droids and winged bugs with sonic weapons? It would take around just as much CGI as those scenes already did (unless if you believe those droids and genosians were real :p )

    Thoughts?
  2. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    I think the rule was there in the OT but never explicitly clarified.

    In the OT we never even heard the word "Sith'. We were told, out of context of the film, Darth Vader was a "Lord of the Sith" without knowing what that meant.

    Regardless the Rule of Two is adhered to in ESB and ROTJ without being explained to the audience.

    • Vader is seeking to gain Luke as a new apprentice behind the Emperor's back -- he gets busted on it in the hologram call. He is hiding this effort from the Emperor for a reason.
    • Vader's first order of business when trying to turn Luke is to get him to destroy the Emperor -- and he actually TELLS HIM that.
    • By ROTJ when the Emperor has assigned Vader to bring Luke to him, Vader is depressed, sullen, resigned to his fate. He knows that there is no room for three Sith and he knows he is being replaced; Luke is meant to take his place and THE EMPEROR EVEN TELLS HIM THAT (take your father's place at my side).
    As far as storytelling purposes and having an army of Sith, it would nullify their function in the saga -- to be the covert "enemy within", working in secret to undermine the Jedi and the Republic.
    Last edited by janstett, Dec 22, 2012
  3. El_Machete12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2012
    star 1
    The Sith are all about working in secret, without huge numbers. If there is a large number of Sith, their dark-side characteristics would lead to power struggles and infighting.

    And how exactly would Palpatine just kill off his army of Sith? He'd be screwed lol.
  4. Han Shot First Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2012
    star 2
    The whole PT was a bad idea, Attack of The Clones in particular as it was worse than the holiday special.
  5. darthbarracuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah, look at The Old Republic game. The Sith Empire is filled with all these Sith, and every minute you see Sith turn on each other, desperate for power. They conspire and try to kill each other, fragmenting the government and loyalties. Instead of having a Sith Empire that's ruled by a whole bunch of Sith, just have the Master who is the supreme ruler and the apprentice who takes out special orders. The rest are just normal dudes working for you. And if the apprentice gets killed, the master just goes out and finds a new apprentice. Instead of having a bunch of squabbling idiots trying to gain the favor of the Master.
  6. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The earlier drafts of Star Wars had multiple Sith Knights and Vader as a Sith Lord (and second-in-command to the Master of the Sith). However, in the end, the OT had only two Sith. So the rule of two explains why and fits into the political story of the PT as well. Of all the things PT added, that's the least controversial one and probably was on GL's mind when he was writing the OT (Vader and Palpatine trying to backstab each other). Now, the Jedi not being allowed to marry and have children is likely something he came up with later (in the earlier drafts Luke actually knew his father).
    kainee likes this.
  7. DarthRelaxus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2007
    star 4
    Limiting the number of people who want to murder you and take your place is just common sense. Too many apprentices means a Sith Master would have to be constantly vigilant.
    kainee likes this.
  8. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    The whole PT was a bad idea, Attack of The Clones in particular as it was worse than the holiday special.

    -------

    sure it was....

    Anyway, the rule of 2 is pretty silly

    what happens if an apprentice kills his master, then flops down dead straight after from sithilis (a GFFA STI)

    no more sith.
    Billy_Dee_Binks likes this.
  9. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Not only does Vader try to recruit Luke to defeat the Emperor in ESB but in ROTS we find out that pretty much from the moment he turns to the dark side Anakin is plotting to overthrow Palpatine. He tells Padme that he can overthrow him and they can rule together. Now can you imagine an entire army of Sith with similar designs? Palpatine would have no chance. Not only is the Rule of Two logical in-universe but I much prefer it over an entire army of Dark Lords. I like my Sith in the shadows secretly plotting against everyone and each other.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  10. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    it's not logical in the least.


    - what happens if both sith were in a building that blows up?

    - what happens if during lightsaber practice they get carried away and kill each other?

    - or what if, a very powerful Jedi discovers their "secret" find them and kills them?

    - what happens if the apprentice decides his master is a big meanie, decides to cnvert to the Jedi and kills him?
    Order66Survivor and Sitara like this.
  11. DarthRelaxus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2007
    star 4
    That's the risk you take for absolute power.
  12. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    no,

    it's a sign of over confidence

    ----

    and we all know how that turns out,

    oh yes, that's right, destroying the sith order in ROTJ
  13. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I'm sure they keep an eye on potential replacements (like Palpatine did with Anakin) and maybe even train them without making them a full Sith lord. Is it risky? Yes, but less so than the Sith fighting each other and attracting the Jedi's attention.
    Darth Chiznuk and DarthRelaxus like this.
  14. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    I disagree :p

    lets make an example here:

    American civil war (or any civil war): would that country survive if another country invaded during the chaos?

    if the answer is no: then history is lame for not taking advantages of this situation


    as for training others in secret

    then in that case even the Sith think the rule of 2 is illogical, otherwise they wouldn't do it
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Dec 22, 2012
  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
  16. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    ok so for example,

    if a country was in fighting (civil war) and someone invaded them, the more chance they'd be conquered right?

    the country in this case is the sith, the invaders are the Jedi, the most logical thing to do then is to join forces, stop the infighting and defeat the enemy

    the rule of 2 suggests Sith are not intelligent force sensitives with a different philosophy, but brain dead primitive tusken raider types who kill each other.."because me Tarzan= you monkey grr"



    if i've lost you with the last bit, I mean that even if the sith feel they need to train others in case of "complications" they themselves think their logic is flawed
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Dec 22, 2012
  17. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The Jedi can't fight the Sith if they don't know who or where they are. And they would with a larger number of Sith.
  18. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    - what happens if both sith were in a building that blows up?

    - what happens if during lightsaber practice they get carried away and kill each other?

    - or what if, a very powerful Jedi discovers their "secret" find them and kills them?

    - what happens if the apprentice decides his master is a big meanie, decides to cnvert to the Jedi and kills him?


    which is where these questions come in.


    The answer is "well they train others in secret"

    if that is right, the Sith themselves ponder the logic in just two at a time
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The Sith are pretty good at predicting the future against events like "blowing up a building". Sure, there's a risk, but there's a risk in everything.
  20. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    you mean like

    knowing Obi-Wan would leap out and cut you in half

    or knowing thatthe guy you've just peeved off is going to cut your hands off

    or your apprentice is going to throw you over a shaft


    the movies don't seem to support your theory.
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Dec 22, 2012
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  21. DarthRelaxus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2007
    star 4
    That's where overconfidence comes in and why the Sith were destroyed. Palpy stopped being careful when he thought he was in complete control of the galaxy. It still makes sense to have only one apprentice because if there were more, they would all want to be the next emperor. With only one apprentice, there's no squabbling over who's next in line.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  22. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    exactly:

    Sith might be over confident in all the things above

    "a building being destroyed while we're here?? bwahaha as if!" *ka booomm*

    etc.
  23. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    I don't really have any problems with the rule of two, but something like this would have been awesome.
    kainee and DarthRelaxus like this.
  24. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    The Rule of Two is immaterial when considering the movies, imo.

    It's never mentioned by name in the saga and is only vaguely summarized once, by a Jedi.
    burrisjedimaster1 likes this.
  25. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    well I dunno about that, the movies strongly hint of two :p

    otherwise why not have Dooku AND Anakin as apprentices?
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