Lit The Rule of Two...well, maybe more of a loose guideline...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Kevin, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    Okay, a discussion in another thread inspired me to create this one.

    1) Who are all the folks trained at some level as apprentices, Dark Side adepts, Sith, etc. by Palpatine and Vader?
    2) What was there original title / role prior to the prequels
    3) What was their status after any retcon?

    I'll start off with a limited list.

    Palpatine:
    Darth Maul - apprentice - no major retcon
    Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus - apprentice - no major retcon
    Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader - THE Dark Lord of the Sith / apprentice to Palaptine - PT makes him #2 DLOTS
    Mara Jade - Emperor's Hand - no major retcon
    bunch of guys in Dark Empire whose names don't recall

    Vader:
    Starkiller - apprentice in waiting - no major retcon
    Shira Brie / Lumiya - Dark Lady of the Sith - recton to Emperor's Hand

    Years ago I probably could have named a lot of this off by memory, but I'm getting old, and the EU keeps getting bigger.
  2. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Palpatine
    Sith Apprentices
    Darth Maul - apprentice
    Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus
    Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader
    Vergere (maybe? idk what the status of this retcon is now)

    Emperor's Hands
    Aralina Silk
    Arden Lyn
    Cronal / Blackhole
    Jallar Golin
    Jeng Droga
    Maarek Stele
    Mara Jade
    Roganda Ismaren
    Sa Cuis
    Sarcev Quest
    Sheyvan
    Shira Brie / Lumiya
    Vess Kogo

    Dark Side Elite
    Baddon Fass
    Kam Solusar
    Krdys Mordi
    Kvag Gthull
    Sedriss
    Tedryn-Sha
    Vill Goir
    Xecr Nist
    Zasm Katth

    Count Dooku
    Sith Apprentices
    Sev'rance Tann (?)
    Asajj Ventress
    Savage Opress

    Dark Jedi minions
    Artel Darc
    Kadrian Sey
    Karoc
    Nikkos Tyris
    Quinlan Vos
    Saato
    Sora Bulq
    Tol Skorr
    Trenox
    Vinoc
    3 unnamed dudes Mace Windu kills in the original TCW

    Darth Vader
    Sith Apprentices
    Galen Marek / Starkiller
    Starkiller Clone
    Shira Brie / Lumiya
    Flint

    Other students
    Antinnis Tremayne
    Hethrir
    Kharys
    Rillao
    Vost Tyne
  3. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Sometimes I see why people ignore the EU. Sometimes...
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  4. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

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    Aug 30, 2001
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    Also, based ona technicality, since Darth Maul did not actually die in TPM, does that now mean he remained a Dark Lord of the Sith and Tyranus is "illegitimate"?
  5. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I don't know about that. Even if Palpatine was unaware of Maul's survivial he still replaced him with Tyranus; Dooku is still a legitimate Lord and Sidious' apprentice. Maul has been disowned so I don't know what his status would be, Sith Lord? Darth Sider?
  6. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
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    Pretty sure that the RoT isn't like a law of thermodynamics, whereby the existence of two Sith absolutely precludes the existence of a third.

    Tenebrous + Plagueis + Venamis = 3
    Plagueis + Sidious + Maul = 3
    Sidious + Tyranus + Maul + Opress = 4
    Lumiya + Carnor Jax + Palpatine = 3

    I guess you could consider the Opress brothers to be some kind of new Banite offshoot coexisting alongside the mainline Banites. I mean there were like hundreds of Sith doing their own thing on Kesh throughout the whole Rule of Two era so it's nothing new.
  7. Gorefiend Chosen One

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  8. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    I wouldn't include the Prophets in that since they were never part of the Banite order.
  9. Plaristes Force Ghost

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    Jul 2, 2007
    star 3
    _Catherine_ left out of her list Vader's apprentice Tao.
  10. JackG Force Ghost

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    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Not canon.
  11. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
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    You can also cross Mara off the list as she was never on the darkside, never did anything bad and only went after bad people. Why because her creator says so.
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  12. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    She ratted out the Dark Woman, that's enough for me.
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  13. Plaristes Force Ghost

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    Maybe. According to Leland, it's canon status is "fuzzy," which sounds like S-canon to me.
  14. IG_2000 Force Ghost

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    Aug 5, 2008
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    Well technically now it was retconned that Darth Maul was never even a "true" Sith.
  15. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
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    I don't even know what that means.
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  16. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
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    Several sources, particularly Darth Plagueis, strong suggest that Palpatine may have called Maul apprentice, but never intended him to be anything more than a killing machine. Plagueis was aware of Maul's existence and did not object to his training, implying that both Sith considered him an exception to the Rule of Two.

    Counting the various minions of Emperor Palpatine as Rule of Two violations is irrelevant. Once he became Emperor Bane's contingencies no longer applied, the Rule fo Two had fullfilled its purpose and Palpatine was in a position to abandon it, which he certainly did - explicitly so after his initial death (not for nothing, the use of the essence transfer power violates the principle justification behind the rule of two in the first place, that the single dark lord would die at some point).

    Insofar as there are characters who could 'violate' the rule of two by properly threatening to replace one of the existing sith, the list is quite small. It's basically Maul, Ventress, Galen Marek, and Luke Skywalker (again, insofar as the Rule of Two even applied under the Empire).

    Honestly though, I'd be prepared to say that the Rule of Two properly died with Darth Plagueis. At that point Palpatine had already become Supreme Chancellor, which moved him, and the Sith with him, outside the context Darth Bane had devised the Rule of Two to operate under, rendering it more or less irrelevant.
  17. Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    star 1
    No such thing happened. Plagueis thought that Maul wouldn't be trained as a true Sith. That's what Sidious, devious bastard that he is, wanted him to believe. Otherwise Plagueis would have never allowed Maul to be trained. But obviously Sidious had other ideas in mind. Sidious dubbing Maul a Darth and Dark Lord of the Sith further reinforces this. There was no need for him to do so if it was 'just for show' . Maul already was fanatical in his devotion to him.
    Even assuming this was true, there's a difference between how a Master perceives his Apprentice and how the Apprentice actually is. Plagueis' own master Tenebrous thought he was a dolt and considered him no more than a vessel for him until the Anakin Skywalker appeared and Tenebrous could hop in his body. Venamis was actually Tenebrous' true apprentice. We all know how that turned out.

    Near the end of his life Bane thought Zannah was unworthy to succeed him. We also know how that turned out.

    True, Maul doesn't have the wealth and influence Plagueis and Palpatine enjoy in the galaxy. But that is not what makes a Sith. Strength in the dark side is what makes a Sith, and Maul qualifies. He was already very powerful and he was only in his early 20s. I believe if Maul had 2 or 3 more decades to mature he would have surpassed both Plagueis and Sidious in power.
    Last edited by Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken, Dec 27, 2012
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Guys guys.


    Maul is a lord. A crime lord.
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Also, I think we can agree that Palpatine didn't want or expect Maul to "die" ( read: be defeated, thanks TCW :rolleyes: ) in TPM. So I think he intended Maul to be the official #2 Sith when Plagueis was dead.
  20. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Yup. But, equally, I doubt Sidious wanted his apprentice to be as powerful as him. He was quite happy having an assassin for an apprentice.
  21. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

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    Aug 30, 2001
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    Yeah...not sure I agree on that one. Besides, the authors opinion is not what matters, what matters is what is written in the EU.
  22. fett 4 Force Ghost

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    Jan 2, 2000
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    Hard to say, he seemed to have no problem with the fact Anakin was going to be more powerful, he even says it to Yoda.

    It's also the premise of RTJ that after Anakin ended up just a cripple in a lungsuit, Palpatine was after the next best thing in Luke as his next apprentice.
  23. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    On point I want to bring up is I think while called "The Rule of Two", it is meant to be "The Rule of Three." The whole point of the apprentice rising above his Master and killing him usually means he already has an apprentice himself. It is kinda an unspoken constant that three will exist for the latter part of the apprentice's journey.
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  24. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Similarly, the Master can kill the apprentice and elevate their own candidate. I'd be inclined to argue that there can be up to four existing within the system.

    I like the idea of each of them having a 'Shadow' apprentice.

    Example during the Clone Wars...

    Dark Lord of the Sith
    Darth Sidious

    Sith Apprentice
    Darth Tyranus

    Shadow Sith Apprentice (Dark Lord)
    Anakin Skywalker

    Shadow Sith Apprentice (Apprentice)
    Asajj Ventress

    That there are rogue Sith does not invalidate the direct line... between Darth Millennial, Set Harth, Vergere and Darth Maul, there is precedent for rogues not breaking the line of succession. I would expect that the Dark Lord and the Apprentice would, more often than not, be competing over the same Apprentice, though, and a single entity is joining the system. Like Sidious and Vader vying over Luke. That some of these third parties are acknowledged by the Master and Apprentice doesn't mean anything either. Sidious is just as invested in Starkiller as Vader, just as Lumiya is just as invested in Ben Skywalker as Caedus is.
  25. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    You seriously have an issue with the entire "Treachery is the way of the Sith" thing? They obviously took their own rules with a grain of salt. Not to mention Vader planned to have Flint and Shira duel to the death and take the victor as his true apprentice.
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 2, 2013