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Lit The Rule of Two...well, maybe more of a loose guideline...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Kevin, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. Darth_Kevin

    Darth_Kevin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Okay, a discussion in another thread inspired me to create this one.

    1) Who are all the folks trained at some level as apprentices, Dark Side adepts, Sith, etc. by Palpatine and Vader?
    2) What was there original title / role prior to the prequels
    3) What was their status after any retcon?

    I'll start off with a limited list.

    Palpatine:
    Darth Maul - apprentice - no major retcon
    Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus - apprentice - no major retcon
    Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader - THE Dark Lord of the Sith / apprentice to Palaptine - PT makes him #2 DLOTS
    Mara Jade - Emperor's Hand - no major retcon
    bunch of guys in Dark Empire whose names don't recall

    Vader:
    Starkiller - apprentice in waiting - no major retcon
    Shira Brie / Lumiya - Dark Lady of the Sith - recton to Emperor's Hand

    Years ago I probably could have named a lot of this off by memory, but I'm getting old, and the EU keeps getting bigger.
     
  2. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Palpatine
    Sith Apprentices​
    Darth Maul - apprentice
    Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus
    Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader​
    Vergere (maybe? idk what the status of this retcon is now)​

    Emperor's Hands​
    Aralina Silk​
    Arden Lyn​
    Cronal / Blackhole​
    Jallar Golin​
    Jeng Droga​
    Maarek Stele​
    Mara Jade​
    Roganda Ismaren​
    Sa Cuis​
    Sarcev Quest​
    Sheyvan​
    Shira Brie / Lumiya​
    Vess Kogo​

    Dark Side Elite​
    Baddon Fass​
    Kam Solusar​
    Krdys Mordi​
    Kvag Gthull​
    Sedriss​
    Tedryn-Sha​
    Vill Goir​
    Xecr Nist​
    Zasm Katth​

    Count Dooku
    Sith Apprentices​
    Sev'rance Tann (?)​
    Asajj Ventress​
    Savage Opress​

    Dark Jedi minions​
    Artel Darc​
    Kadrian Sey​
    Karoc​
    Nikkos Tyris​
    Quinlan Vos​
    Saato​
    Sora Bulq​
    Tol Skorr​
    Trenox​
    Vinoc​
    3 unnamed dudes Mace Windu kills in the original TCW​

    Darth Vader
    Sith Apprentices​
    Galen Marek / Starkiller​
    Starkiller Clone​
    Shira Brie / Lumiya​
    Flint​

    Other students​
    Antinnis Tremayne​
    Hethrir​
    Kharys​
    Rillao​
    Vost Tyne​
     
  3. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Sometimes I see why people ignore the EU. Sometimes...
     
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  4. Darth_Kevin

    Darth_Kevin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Also, based ona technicality, since Darth Maul did not actually die in TPM, does that now mean he remained a Dark Lord of the Sith and Tyranus is "illegitimate"?
     
  5. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    I don't know about that. Even if Palpatine was unaware of Maul's survivial he still replaced him with Tyranus; Dooku is still a legitimate Lord and Sidious' apprentice. Maul has been disowned so I don't know what his status would be, Sith Lord? Darth Sider?
     
  6. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Pretty sure that the RoT isn't like a law of thermodynamics, whereby the existence of two Sith absolutely precludes the existence of a third.

    Tenebrous + Plagueis + Venamis = 3
    Plagueis + Sidious + Maul = 3
    Sidious + Tyranus + Maul + Opress = 4
    Lumiya + Carnor Jax + Palpatine = 3

    I guess you could consider the Opress brothers to be some kind of new Banite offshoot coexisting alongside the mainline Banites. I mean there were like hundreds of Sith doing their own thing on Kesh throughout the whole Rule of Two era so it's nothing new.
     
  7. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I wouldn't include the Prophets in that since they were never part of the Banite order.
     
  9. Plaristes

    Plaristes Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2007
    _Catherine_ left out of her list Vader's apprentice Tao.
     
  10. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Not canon.
     
  11. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    You can also cross Mara off the list as she was never on the darkside, never did anything bad and only went after bad people. Why because her creator says so.
     
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  12. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    She ratted out the Dark Woman, that's enough for me.
     
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  13. Plaristes

    Plaristes Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Maybe. According to Leland, it's canon status is "fuzzy," which sounds like S-canon to me.
     
  14. IG_2000

    IG_2000 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Well technically now it was retconned that Darth Maul was never even a "true" Sith.
     
  15. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    I don't even know what that means.
     
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  16. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Several sources, particularly Darth Plagueis, strong suggest that Palpatine may have called Maul apprentice, but never intended him to be anything more than a killing machine. Plagueis was aware of Maul's existence and did not object to his training, implying that both Sith considered him an exception to the Rule of Two.

    Counting the various minions of Emperor Palpatine as Rule of Two violations is irrelevant. Once he became Emperor Bane's contingencies no longer applied, the Rule fo Two had fullfilled its purpose and Palpatine was in a position to abandon it, which he certainly did - explicitly so after his initial death (not for nothing, the use of the essence transfer power violates the principle justification behind the rule of two in the first place, that the single dark lord would die at some point).

    Insofar as there are characters who could 'violate' the rule of two by properly threatening to replace one of the existing sith, the list is quite small. It's basically Maul, Ventress, Galen Marek, and Luke Skywalker (again, insofar as the Rule of Two even applied under the Empire).

    Honestly though, I'd be prepared to say that the Rule of Two properly died with Darth Plagueis. At that point Palpatine had already become Supreme Chancellor, which moved him, and the Sith with him, outside the context Darth Bane had devised the Rule of Two to operate under, rendering it more or less irrelevant.
     
  17. Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken

    Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    No such thing happened. Plagueis thought that Maul wouldn't be trained as a true Sith. That's what Sidious, devious bastard that he is, wanted him to believe. Otherwise Plagueis would have never allowed Maul to be trained. But obviously Sidious had other ideas in mind. Sidious dubbing Maul a Darth and Dark Lord of the Sith further reinforces this. There was no need for him to do so if it was 'just for show' . Maul already was fanatical in his devotion to him.
    Even assuming this was true, there's a difference between how a Master perceives his Apprentice and how the Apprentice actually is. Plagueis' own master Tenebrous thought he was a dolt and considered him no more than a vessel for him until the Anakin Skywalker appeared and Tenebrous could hop in his body. Venamis was actually Tenebrous' true apprentice. We all know how that turned out.

    Near the end of his life Bane thought Zannah was unworthy to succeed him. We also know how that turned out.

    True, Maul doesn't have the wealth and influence Plagueis and Palpatine enjoy in the galaxy. But that is not what makes a Sith. Strength in the dark side is what makes a Sith, and Maul qualifies. He was already very powerful and he was only in his early 20s. I believe if Maul had 2 or 3 more decades to mature he would have surpassed both Plagueis and Sidious in power.
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Guys guys.


    Maul is a lord. A crime lord.
     
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  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Also, I think we can agree that Palpatine didn't want or expect Maul to "die" ( read: be defeated, thanks TCW :rolleyes: ) in TPM. So I think he intended Maul to be the official #2 Sith when Plagueis was dead.
     
  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Yup. But, equally, I doubt Sidious wanted his apprentice to be as powerful as him. He was quite happy having an assassin for an apprentice.
     
  21. Darth_Kevin

    Darth_Kevin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Yeah...not sure I agree on that one. Besides, the authors opinion is not what matters, what matters is what is written in the EU.
     
  22. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Hard to say, he seemed to have no problem with the fact Anakin was going to be more powerful, he even says it to Yoda.

    It's also the premise of RTJ that after Anakin ended up just a cripple in a lungsuit, Palpatine was after the next best thing in Luke as his next apprentice.
     
  23. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2012
    On point I want to bring up is I think while called "The Rule of Two", it is meant to be "The Rule of Three." The whole point of the apprentice rising above his Master and killing him usually means he already has an apprentice himself. It is kinda an unspoken constant that three will exist for the latter part of the apprentice's journey.
     
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  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Similarly, the Master can kill the apprentice and elevate their own candidate. I'd be inclined to argue that there can be up to four existing within the system.

    I like the idea of each of them having a 'Shadow' apprentice.

    Example during the Clone Wars...

    Dark Lord of the Sith
    Darth Sidious

    Sith Apprentice
    Darth Tyranus

    Shadow Sith Apprentice (Dark Lord)
    Anakin Skywalker

    Shadow Sith Apprentice (Apprentice)
    Asajj Ventress

    That there are rogue Sith does not invalidate the direct line... between Darth Millennial, Set Harth, Vergere and Darth Maul, there is precedent for rogues not breaking the line of succession. I would expect that the Dark Lord and the Apprentice would, more often than not, be competing over the same Apprentice, though, and a single entity is joining the system. Like Sidious and Vader vying over Luke. That some of these third parties are acknowledged by the Master and Apprentice doesn't mean anything either. Sidious is just as invested in Starkiller as Vader, just as Lumiya is just as invested in Ben Skywalker as Caedus is.
     
  25. Esg

    Esg Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    You seriously have an issue with the entire "Treachery is the way of the Sith" thing? They obviously took their own rules with a grain of salt. Not to mention Vader planned to have Flint and Shira duel to the death and take the victor as his true apprentice.