The Saga against Feminism?

I never really saw it as her weakness. To me the weakness was that society valued their beauracracy (I spell that right?) over something normal and natural like love. I think ultimately if their love hadn't been this forbidden thing; they both would have been able to deal with whatever challenges they faced because they wouldn't have had to maintain "the lie" around everyone else. Because of this they could have kept everything out in the open and that would have led to the wisdom of the 'decent' Senators and Jedi Order to discover Sidious and his lies against the Republic and Anakin. Also she was strong but not really independent. If she had been independent then no one would be able to tell her who she does or does not love. Her role as a Senator actually robbed her of her independence. Leia however was very much independent, and no one ever told her she couldn't fool around in the corridors with Han.

 

you are right. she shouldnt have let anyone tell her what she should do. the love wasnt forbidden. it was the act of hiding that was wrong. she should have quite the senate and he the jedi. they were not going to stop loving each other; they should have just been open about it.

 

Let's try and cut Padme some slack, Anakin too for that matter.
I am usually the first one to point out Ani's flaws, but when it comes
to their relationship they were basically 2 stupid kids in a forbidden
romance. Yes, Padme is older but she's still young and involved in something
that is new to her. Ani is young and let's face it, immature in a lot of ways.
And, who here has dated someone they know they were not allowed to and found keeping
it a secret exciting. Some people get caught up in the 'you and me against the world'
scenario. Once you begin to lie to keep a secret the cycle is never ending unless
you're willing to lose something of value when you break it.
Padme and Ani were in deep enough and neither wanted to lose each other or their
outside life/duties. They were young, naive and tried to have it all. Who hasn't.

 

if they could have removed the forbidden aspect of it, would they have made it? they are the romeo and juliet of sw. you said it best jqueen. they were kids. but, kids doing adult things. like r/j they chose not to be adult but to stay in adolescence. sure we all have done the forbidden love thing. (i remember him all too well) there comes a point when you either keep making childish decisions or you decide to grow up. they are an example of what not to do. it doesnt diminish the intensity of their love just the longevity of it.

 

I agree they were young and perhaps unprepared for what love might drive them to do or become involved in; but really this is the core of our humanity. And it's an engrained human characteristic. The rules and regulations of the Republic and the Jedi Institutions should have been built around that basic human need and truth. Instead it sets these young people (who likely have very good intentions of doing something good in galaxy with their stations in life) to have to choose between public life and private life.

Now granted; the Jedi have a far greater risk factor since emotionally complex situations could lead to the dark side. But the reality is; proper training and a policy of acceptance through responsibility of one's actions; the Jedi could have had love lives and still maintained their mandate to protect the Republic.

I just feel that instead of trying to fix the relationship so that it conforms to what society says is acceptable; society should have been built to accept the relationships as irrelevent to the duties of public figures; because really; it is pretty irrelevent. I mean a person failing to do their duty should be the cause of expulsion; not engaging in a relationship that MIGHT cause them to fail in their duties.

Be that as it may; life in the Republic wasn't really fair, and they should have just stepped down and lived a family life; but then from Anakin's perspective, there was no future without the darkside; thanks to Sidious.

 

Absolutely brilliant post YYZ-2112!!

I just wanted to highlight one paragraph here:

Now granted; the Jedi have a far greater risk factor since emotionally complex situations could lead to the dark side. But the reality is; proper training and a policy of acceptance through responsibility of one's actions; the Jedi could have had love lives and still maintained their mandate to protect the Republic.

I maintain this view as well. These beings are adults and for the most part, should be treated as such and given the respect and individual autonomy to make the right decisions for themselves, or else, what was all the years of training for then if they are just meant to say no to such core sentient experiences?

In other posts, there have been some interesting ideas posted about the secrecy aspect of Anakin and Padme's relationship, which was one of the big problems for Anakin later, as he then felt alone with the problems of his visions and couldn't really divulge his anxieties to anyone fully. This 'lying' aspect is pretty big, and you could have a thread just on that alone. The ethics of lying, how sometimes, things are pretty rough, or complicated and to try and be happy, to get some enjoyment out of life, and in order to not 'rock the boat'and make things more complicated/confrontational, you become secretive. It's incredibly easy to do, and most of the time, it's quite innocent, nothing malevolent in it at all, but at the time it may be the one thing keeping you sane and moving ahead with your life, because in the end, it's your life and no one elses.

As a Jedi, Anakin probably shouldn't have gone ahead with the relationship, it was possibly not the right thing to do, and as for Padme, well, some people would hold that she could have been more responsible, but why should she be held up as a paragon of virtue all the time? Does this negate her as a strong female? I don't think so, she never left her post, had continued with her duties and if the extra scenes have any thing to recommend them, she was a member of the delegation of 2000 that was concerned about where the Republic was going, and she carried on a secret relationship. Well, all I can say is she was busy, if nothing else. As for her dying the way she did at the end of ROTS, again, the personality of Padme, the degree to which her life was shaped by politics and people doing the right thing, her strong civic mindedness, to see her husband be the total opposite of that and in fact learn how he helped destroy her world, as it were, would have been devastating. When you believe in a cause or invest yourself very strongly like that, and things fall down, it can be that damaging to you. So damaging that it can make you give up, and sometimes that should not be underestimated when strong feelings of disappointment and despair come into their own. She had been half choked by her husband too and ok she gave birth to twins, but this idea that they alone could keep her from slipping away, well, I'm sure she didn't abandon them deliberately, but they just weren't enough of a balm for her shattered soul at that point in time. It doesn't detract from her as a woman or as a mother, she was physically and mentally spent, unfortunately for Luke and Leia.

 

^^^
It?s not like she threw them in the trash compactor. Obi-wan & Bail were around. Men she could trust to look after them.

 

Its one part of humanity. But its by no means core. There are many people in the real world who refrain from relationships of this kind for their duty. Instead, the Jedi were encouraged to love. I view this as more important for a Jedi than to be involved in a relationship where selfish feelings WILL collide with their duty.

What exactly is proper training? Some Jedi may be able to deal with it. But that would be a very low frequencey. The risk would just be too high. Most would become attached and fear the loss of their partner. And that for an Order that has a duty to protect the galaxy is just wrong. If you want a relationship, then leave the Order. But being a jedi is about living a life of selfless service.

I'd hardly call it irrelevant. Allowing the Jedi to have relationships WILL vastly increase the number of them that turn to the dark side or fail their duty.

Yes, Anakin should have come clean and it would have been better for him to leave the Order. But he was just too weak to do that and of course Palpatine didnt help matters.

Not sure what you mean about life in the Republic not being that fair though.

 

If you want a relationship, then leave the Order. But being a jedi is about living a life of selfless service.

What a lovely idea. Unfortunately . . .

1) Even the Jedi Order created relationships - friendships and the Master/padawan relationship are two examples.

2) Why would anyone believe that anyone was capable of being completely selfless? The Jedi Masters like Yoda and Mace proved that they were, in the end, incapable of it.

People are going to create attachments whether they like it or not. It is more or less pretty much ordained. What they have to learn is to let go of that attachment when the time is right. Sometimes, situations might call for an individual to have an attachment. There are no true answers.

 

I'm referring to relationships like Padme and Anakin had. Family relationships. Marriage etc. Master/Padawan relationships are healthy as the Jedi are able to let go. They are taught from birth. So when they form these kind of relationships it isnt dangerous.

Come again? Can you give an example of this?

Not for jedi. Lucas has stated time and time again and shown in his films that the Jedi should not become attached to things. But when or if they do they are able to let go. If jedi lvie with attachments then they will not be fulfilling thier duties as a Jedi.

 

Not for jedi. Lucas has stated time and time again and shown in his films that the Jedi should not become attached to things. But when or if they do they are able to let go. If jedi lvie with attachments then they will not be fulfilling thier duties as a Jedi.

I think the above statement is an example of confusing prequel era Jedi doctrine for overall thematic intent of the Saga as a whole. After all, it?s Luke Skywalker?s refusal to let go of his attachments that in the end make him the ultimate Jedi. We see this first when Yoda urges Luke to let go of Han and Leia (in other words, to let them die) in favor of staying on Dagobah to complete his training. Luke denied this erroneous moral standard upon realizing that Yoda had no right to define another?s relationships as meaningless distractions. Later on, Luke?s sense of necessary attachment comes into play again when he refuses to believe that Anakin Skywalker had entirely been consumed by evil. Luke denies the opportunity to kill Vader, and stubbornly throws aside his lightsaber in a gesture that says he?d rather die than abandon his belief that the good man inside his father still existed. Of course, Luke was right. That attachment not only led to the destruction of the Sith, but the rebirth of the Jedi Order.

 

I'm afraid thats backwards. Its by letting go at the end that he becomes the ultimate Jedi. he lets go of his attachments. He knows that he can't stop the inevitable. If he wanted to hold on to his attachments he would have turned to the dark side so he could 'be sure' of saving Leia and his friends.

Im sorry but you have totally misread all this. Yoda tells Luke not to go because he is not ready and will make matters worse. In the end, leia had to save him!:

It was vital for Luke to let go of his attachments at these moments so he wouldnt make bad choices based on them. It wasnt an error by Yoda. It was spot on and somethig that Luke took heed in at the end of the saga.

That isnt an attachment. An attachment prevents someone from letting go. If Luke was attached he would have feared the loss for himself and more importantly at the time, would have acted on the threat to Leia's life (remember he was promised that he could save Leia if he turned to the dark side). But what Luke does instead is reject this. He realises that by holding on to these attachments he will become the evil that he is trying to fight against. He lets go and thats what makes him the ultimate Jedi.

Here are GL's quotes on Jedi neededing to let go of attachments:

 

I'm afraid thats backwards. Its by letting go at the end that he becomes the ultimate Jedi. he lets go of his attachments. He knows that he can't stop the inevitable. If he wanted to hold on to his attachments he would have turned to the dark side so he could 'be sure' of saving Leia and his friends.

Umm, no. You?re wrongly applying Anakin?s mindset in regards to turning to the dark side to Luke?s situation. Anakin turned because he was mislead into believing that embracing the dark side was the best means of saving Padme. For good reason, though, Luke never even began to contemplate the dark side as being beneficial in this manner. He saw the results of the dark side right there in front of him in the forms of Vader and the Emperor, and realized that taking a similar mantle for himself would lead to the destruction of the rebellion and his friends. The fact that Vader tried to pull that ?it?s the only way to save them? crap only shows how smart Luke really was. He knew that turning would only betray his friends, not save them. In reality, both Anakin and Luke were fueled by attachment. The difference was that only one of them was clairvoyant enough not to succumb to trickery and destructive behavior.

Im sorry but you have totally misread all this. Yoda tells Luke not to go because he is not ready and will make matters worse. In the end, leia had to save him!:

Luke: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
Yoda: If you honor what they fight for? Yes.

Yoda urges Luke that it may be necessary for him to simply accept the fact that Han and Leia might die. Luke denies this, simply choosing that the risk Yoda talks of is unacceptable. You?re right, though, Leia does end up saving Luke, and yes, he ended up getting his tail kicked by Vader, but who says that wasn?t an absolutely necessary step towards Luke finally freeing his father? But that?s irrelevant to my point of Luke rebuking Yoda?s feelings on attachment. Luke did what he felt was best (intervening rather than simply sitting back and accepting the possibility of his friends? demise) and ultimately, things worked out. But then again, I?m just ?misreading,? right Shaitan?

That isnt an attachment. An attachment prevents someone from letting go.

And Luke?s attachment to the idea of good in his father refused him to let go of hope. Thus he didn?t kill Vader, thus Anakin Skywalker reemerged to destroy the Sith.

 

Well, I disagree with all of that im afraid but just havent the time to reply to it . I just think the quotes from GL I posted above say it all regarding Jedi and attachment.

 

Master/Padawan relationships are healthy as the Jedi are able to let go.

Not really. It depends upon the individuals involved. Obi-Wan ended up developing a rather unhealthy attachment to Qui-Gon. I'm not hinting a homesexual relationship or anything of the sort. I'm trying to say is that Obi-Wan became so attached to Qui-Gon as a mentor and father figure that when the latter died, he had allowed his grief and rage to get the best of him during his fight with Maul. And it has also been hinted in the "Jedi Apprentice" novels that Obi-Wan continued to have difficulty dealing with Qui-Gon's death after the events of "The Phantom Menance". So much so that his inability to deal with his grief may have tainted his early relationship with Anakin.

Also, if you would observe the Jedi Council's decisions in the three movies - whether it was originally rejecting Anakin from the Order, Yoda's decision to use the Clone troops during the first battle of the Clone War, both Mace and Yoda's decisions to attempt to kill Palpatine and Ki-Mundi-Adi's suggestion that the Council take control of the Senate, I would say that their actions were partially dictated by their attachment to both the Jedi Order and their position with the galaxy's political body.

 

Not really. It depends upon the individuals involved. Obi-Wan ended up developing a rather unhealthy attachment to Qui-Gon.

What makes you think this, just his reaction to his death, or something in addition?

 

Well, I will agree that Obi Wan developed an unhealthy relationship with Anakin (not Qui Gon) that lead to an attachment. But that was down to his inexperience. He should never have been allowed to train Anakin...especially Anakin in fact.

Thats why it doesn't make the Master/Padawan relationship dangerous. This was just an exception to the rule based on an error of judgement.