The saga and its relationship with POWER

Continuing from this thread: http://boards.theforce.net/the_star_wars_saga/b10456/25100627/p1/?22

Fascinating! I see there is also military power.

So we seem to have: physical (e.g. lightsaber prowess), mental (being well adjusted, wise), emotional (understanding one's own emotions and that of other people: e.g. Palpatine), spiritual / metaphysical (e.g. Qui Gon / immortality -- Yoda: "A power greater than all, that is..." / Obi Wan: "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"), political (e.g. Chancellor / emergency powers) and mechanical (as contained in ships, vessels etc. -- e.g. leaking hyperdrive, Obi Wan lowering the Death Star's tractor beam, Tosche Station and its magical power converters!).

TPM definitely plays as a complex allegory. All the power failures are linked to the characters' inner power failures (mental / emotional / spiritual) and seem to suggest the growing infestation of the Dark Side. Anakin being guided on autopilot into the Droid Control Ship also seems to function as a metaphor for him being guided by forces -- political, metaphysical etc. -- greater than himself.

As we probe into this saga, there seem to be a myriad of overlapping meanings, all woven together into a complex whole. The word and concept of "power" alone crops up time and again and seems to mean a million different things in a million different contexts. This is just a starting point. What do you think of the saga's relationship with power (and vice versa)? How many types are there? What does it all mean?

 

This is great stuff. I actually have to write a giant paper right now, but I will come back to comment soon.

"Unlimited power!"--political?

 

EVERYTHING.

Unlimited power / no limit to the layering

Perhaps?

Pretty out there, but when you think about it, Palpatine thought he'd PWNED everyone. Palpatine becomes, or almost becomes, this black hole, drawing everything to his will. But even black holes have their limits. Unfortunately for him: The Force > Palpatine

 

Great thread! I would argue that "Unlimited power" has, obviously, no mechanical power, but also no spirtual power. Palpatine really doesn't gain immortality here.

Another one is the idea of the Death Star. All it is a massive and unprecedented power station that can focus its energy together and create one hell of an explosion. It also has the power to take hold of you and suck you into the Dark Side (e.g. the tractor beam).

 

It has spiritual power in the sense that Palpatine thinks he has conquered the spirit realm, I think. In other words: If he achieves "Unlimited Power!" through Anakin, then he has conquered death. Of course, that's folly. Mechanical power? Hmmmm. I'd say the Death Star is a shining example of how Palpatine thought he was using near enough the ultimate mechanical / military power and had dominion over nature and people themselves.

That's it.

"Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station!" (Palpatine, ROTJ)

 

Mechanical power: The Vader suit.

 

Wow what happened to this thread? More to say on this I do. What about the power of luck? Watto and Jabba the Hutt have gained respect, money and friends with their luck in the game of chance. So too was Han (that's how he got the Millenium Falcon) and probably Lando. It's interesting to note that Qui-Gon could not win at a game of chance, but had to cheat. He didn't trust his powers of luck and had to use the Force against Watto. It seems almost that the Force has given power to the disbelievers. Look at Jar Jar, it was luck (at least for him) that saved him in the jungles of Naboo. Qui-Gon said he didn't believe in luck, but for the unbeliever Jar Jar, that's all it was. I don't quite know what my point is, but I think this is good stuff. What do others think?

 

That's an excellent point!

There is also the "luck" that Anakin experiences in auto-piloting his Naboo craft into the heart of the droid control ship and destroying it.

More to think and talk about later, perhaps.

 

Sorry this thread died, everybody. It just sort of...disappeared.
I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now, but I think another angle we could take is how power directly relates to CONTROL.
There's really a lot of stuff going on in regards to power in SW, so we'll have to be careful to organize and take things one-by-one.

Keeping on the topic of chance (or fortune vs. fate), I've found that TPM is the best place to look.
Jar Jar is a ridiculous fool, but I almost expect someone to say" "The Force is strong with this one."
The same goes for Han.

Even at the very beginning, we get "This turn of events is unfortunate."

Think about that--it's the source of EVERYTHING that happens over the next 30-something years (it seems more like destiny), but Palps, the manipulator, sees it as an unlucky accident more than anything else--or at least makes it look like one.

 

The power of luck almost sounds like an oxymoron.
How can one be powerful in luckyness? lol
Luck is random, it's unpredictable and uncontrolable.
There's a reason they call it "gambling" or "a game of chance",
b/c it can't be controlled..unless you cheat.
QGJ knew this, hence the dice scene.
If I was him I also would have thought it's possible those dice were loaded so why take the chance.
Also, I don't hink the hutts gained respect from being lucky..they were feared as most
mobsters are.

 

For me the topic of droids and power comes to mind, especially when comparing this form of mechanical output to the ?power of the force.? Take a look at the ESB scene on Dagobah where Luke plugs R2 into the power source. If I recall correctly, this is pretty much the only scene were we see a droid?s proverbial batteries being recharged. 3P0 did say he was going to shut down for a while in ANH, yet the manner of that dialogue really didn?t convey the idea that the droid would face a state of peril had this action not been taken immediately. On Dagobah, though, R2 needing recharged directly contributes to an overall context of survival shown through details like Luke?s camping pack, food container, fishing rod, etc. This idea of physical sustenance is then complimented by Luke?s growing awareness of the Force. Up until this point, Luke?s exploits in destroying the Death Star and telekinetically summoning his lightsaber portrayed the character as a Force prodigy. Yet it?s on Dagobah, the same place where we finally see a droid needing to be recharged, that Luke first begins to encounter potential roadblocks to his own force development, such as his failure to move the X-Wing as well as the personal questioning that arises out of the Vader vision. It?s here that Luke begins to realize the Force is not an absolute source of power, but rather a precious resource that needs to be used with care and caution.

With the prequels, the topic of droids and power seems most pressing with the droid control ship in The Phantom Menace. Here Anakin is responsible for destroying one main power source, which in turn brings about the end to a collective consciousness made up of individual droids. Revenge of the Sith may contain a sort of book end to this idea, when Anakin?s murder of Windu in turns allows for the survival of Palpatine. Soon after, Palpatine gives the command for Order 66, thus shutting down the Jedi Order.

 

"You mean it controls your actions?"--Luke
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."--Obi-Wan

This coversation shows us the dichotomy in terms of the Force. Once again, we get another idea of balance--between doing things yourself an letting things happen. The best way to put it is, literally, ACTION vs. PASSION.

A message the saga presents is that you can only "master" yourself AND let the Force "master" you by taking part in both, by recognizing which method is the best path to take and then taking it. This seems, at least to me, to be the ideal for a Jedi (or anyone).

The comparison of the Droid Control Ship situation and Order 66 is one that I hadn't thought much of before, but the resemblance is uncanny. Along those lines, I think that I can explain the main role of the midi-chlorians...

The body=The government.

I'm not sure where this idea originally comes from, but I've heard it a lot and it fits with a class I'm taking right now called "The Body and the Politics of Representation."

The Chancellor/Emperor=The Mind/Person
The Senate=The Midi-chlorians

It's a complicated matter that I'm not sure I can completely articulate at the moment because of the potentially enormous amount of parallels, but...

The midi-chlorians, as a collective conduit of the Force, inform the person they're in to make certain actions like the Senate does. The Person must ultimately make the decision, however, and can override the "ruling" of the midis like an Executive would.

You let the Senate/Midis guide the Chancellor/Human Mind in making decisions, but if there is an imbalance in either side (midis or person), things will get out of "control" or out of "order."

The Force, as the collective moral will of the galaxy, can suggest evil to those sensitive enough if that's what the people wish to do. If one relies solely on the midis in a dark time, one will act on this collective will, and in turn do terrible things (the Jedi). If one relies only on oneself and one's own mind, one will have no "objective" moral basis for doing anything, and in serving one's own interests alone, one would do terrible things as well (the Sith).

The Jedi are presumably SUPPOSED to follow the will of the Force alone, and this is a bad move considering the moral decay of the world (and government) around them. The Sith are presumably SUPPOSED to follow their own will alone, and this is a bad move as it contributes to the moral decay of the world and government around them.

Palpatine wins and the Jedi lose in the PT because Palps understands this notion of balance (even though he's a Sith) and makes sure that it is the will of the people, and not him, who approves of the decisons and leads to the evil will of the Force. He ACTS only in presenting moral decisons that he then PASSES on. He lets people think bad thoughts, and then he goes with the flow (follows the "passions and prejudices of the Senators"). He does, essentially, what the Jedi aim for. The Jedi, on the other hand, are part of the decay in that they fall for Palps' traps without using their minds (literally) to override the nonsense. But when they do override, it turns out badly and goes against their basic notion of democracy in the first place.

Following the midis=democracy.
Following oneself=dictatorship.

It is only through BOTH that everything can be set right, and this is why EVERYONE, the Jedi and Sith included, had to be recycled into the cosmic garbage facility known as "the Force." Anakin is the avatar of this cycle, and Luke finds the right amount of action and passion to help Anakin press the reset button completely.

Another example is the Sith influencing the midi-chlorians--it fits perfectly and helps us to understand the overall situation. The Sith like to force their will on the group. The Jedi like to force their will on the individual. This is nifty because the Sith manipulation (apparently) leads to the creation of the INDIVIDUAL who has to help the COLLECTIVE.

Should the Senate/Midis control what the Chancellor/Person should do?

 

JediQueen luck at the right time is power. Now you don't have control over anything, but by having good luck you gain power. I'm not saying anyone can generate luck, but throughout the saga there are lucky people and that luck has given them power. Jabba wouldn't be where he was in ROTJ without Luke. Han wouldn't be where he was in ANH without luck. They didn't have control, but they gained power through luck.

 

Thanks for the praise, Cryo.

You just took it to a new level yourself. I hadn't thought about how his manipulation of Anakin thr

 

Unbelievable!! That is the greatest description of the Force and midi-chlorians I've ever read. I especially liked you later addition of code vs. law!! I don't have time to give this the response it deserves yet, but I had to chime in and express my amazement. Everytime I think these boards are about to die because we've discussed so many things already, something likes this shows up. Bravo!!!!

 

Thanks, skgai1. I hope we can flesh it out even more.

 

MisterVader,

So much to take in!

My psyche stubbornly refused to acknowledge your starting assertion before: I didn't consciously assess the remark from Obi Wan in ANH -- about the Force both CONTROLLING and OBEYING -- a user's will correctly. But you're right. That is really a key remark. I see what you're saying now!

I also like how you described Qui Gon and Palpatine and tied them together. I guess the visual arrangement of Qui Gon at his funeral pyre could suggest balance: Qui Gon is in the centre of a CIRCLE, with all the various Force players (conscious players like Yoda and Mace, surreptitious players like Palpatine, unconscious players like Jar Jar and Padme) around him. Qui Gon has attained, or almost attained, complete spiritual balance, so he's in the centre, but he hasn't quite reached full enlightenment, so his body is still a physical presence burning to ashes. What's also interesting is that the "older" Jedi, Mace and Yoda, are positioned opposite the "newer" Jedi, Obi Wan and Anakin, and Palpatine himself. The people most intimately associated, or those about to be intimately associated, with the fate of the galaxy are bunched together on the right hemisphere; those more removed are on the left. And binding them all is Qui Gon himself. He has brought this boy before the Council, and now Anakin's fate is sealed, as well as everyone standing around his body.

Other features: Palpatine and Anakin are framed together, but Obi Wan and Padme stand in between them. They are literally and metaphorically "in the way" of Palpatine and his ultimate apprentice. This scene functions as a coda for the film; it's not the last scene, but it carries the weight of the themes. And it's appropriately revisited by the coda of ROTS; again, it isn't the last scene, but the shot of Sidious and Vader overlooking the Death Star screams out: "Mission Accomplished". Isn't it interesting that a young unblemished Anakin watches his surrogate father burning in the former and an older scarred Anakin stands with his poor replacement for a father, looking at a machine of death, in the latter? Palpatine has not just vanquished humanity from Anakin's world, but Anakin has vanquished it himself. The full price of the Dark Side. And no apparent balancing figure now. Or is there? It's curious that Anakin is watching the Death Star undergo construction; the same physical object that Obi Wan would later mistake for a moon (and moons are part and parcel of Anakin's journey; he originally mistakes Padme for an angel "from the moons of Iego", and it goes from there). So the redemption is sorta encoded here: Anakin will sacrifice himself on the second Death Star and be laid to rest, in a funeral pyre (!!), on a sanctuary moon; of course, it only seems to be the armour that's laid to rest, since Anakin presumably faded from the physical realm as Obi Wan and Yoda did, but even that's appropriate -- the armour is symbolic of what Anakin couldn't let go of, just as Qui Gon's body symbolises the same thing.

Dunno quite where I was going with all of that. It started off so clearly! Oh, yeah: it was Qui Gon and balance ... I think. Hehe. The revisitation of the fire motif is interesting. zombie noted in his book that Akira Kurosawa used fire as a motif for cleansing, and it seems that George took a page from his book. In Ep I, the fire cleanses Qui Gon of his flesh; in Ep II, the fire sort of cleanses Anakin of the first stage of his humanity, pointing to the next example; in Ep III, the fire cleanses of Anakin of virtually all of his humanity, and finally, in Ep VI, it cleanes him of of his inhumanity. Dunno if that makes total sense, either! But essentially, if the fire begins in Ep I, it finally completes itself in Ep VI. Anakin essentially finishes off what Qui Gon started and came near to -- albeit with considerable pain and anguish along the way. When Qui Gon dies, his work is unfinished, as we can see with all the players stood around him, but when Anakin dies, it's like a purification of the galaxy, and it's only Luke left ten

 

Sorry if I ramble.

So Palpatine creates balance because he makes the collective will into his own. Now you didn't talk about the flipside. Luke creates balance because he makes the individual will into his own. I find that interesting. Palpatine manipulates people in general, but unless he can manipulate the individual he will never have complete balance and thusly fall out of power. He did both in the prequel trilogy. He manipulated the collective and the individual (Anakin). He has balance, but he forgot about Luke. Luke is not the people. He is not swayed by Palpatine. Palptaine must convert Luke into using his mind over feeling. But Obi and Yoda continually tell Luke to use his feelings over mind. Palpatine knows that he must manipulate the individual, which is why he tells Vader to search him out. In the end though, after he realizes that maybe he can't convert Luke he must kill him because he is a threat to destroy the balance. But wait. The balance has already been destroyed. Anakin can now feel the Force and Luke has unlocked his mind and he's realized that killing younglings probably wasn't the best of ideas and that killing his only son would be even worse. So I think that the Force can create balance in two ways. The Jedi way (or the reinvented Luke Jedi way) is to manipulate (it's a bad word to use, but it works) the individual whereas the Sith manipulate the collective. Both work, but both have opposite effects. Manipulating the individual causes greater good for the whole whereas manipulating the whole causes greater good for one. Yet the Jedi are right because the greater good for the whole in turn equals greater good for one. I tried to think of a good example of this, but my mind is drawing a blank. Anybody got any ideas?

I know I have more to say, but this is rather complicated and at this late hour my brain is not functioning properly. Let me just add that MisterVader and Cryogenic have offerend fascinating insights and totally new ideas to this area and I thank them immensely for that. I'm going to get back on many things, but firstly the moons idea Cryo was talking about. I don't know why, but Anakin and moons/suns interests the hell out of me.

 

My brain has worked again! Back to the moon thing. Moons, IMO, represent destiny. So when Anakin and Palpatine stare off at the constructing Death Star they are constructing their own destiny. Before Anakin let the Force guide him. Padme met him (moons of iago), he's a great podracer, etc. Now he only manipulates the Force. He uses his mind over feeling way too much, in fact almost exclusively. So when he looks off at that Death Star is represents him making his own destiny. When Obi Wan says "It's no moon. That's a space station." he is shocked. He knew the Force was guiding him, but then it got way off-kilter. Alderaan exploded. There was way too much mind over feeling going on. The Force gave him mix messages. ("Something awful has just happened." He meditates, but never actually knows what to do). So realizing that the moon is a space station is representing his destiny changing, but suddenly and harshly. He now has to use feeling over mind to correct the imbalance. So he does many physical things. He takes down the tractor beam. He fights Vader. But then he realizes that, for now, that was all the feeling over mind was necessary for. Getting rid of the tractor beam. Now he knows that the Force is focusing its strength on Luke and that he can't beat Vader who has amazing midi-chlorian levels. So he knows how to help Luke better. Vader says, "Its my old master. And the Force is strong with him." The Force is guiding him to do all the right things. I think I'm right in all this, but maybe not.

Oh and by the way I kind of really want to know what Palpatine's midi levels are. They, I would think, have to be through the roof.

 

I don't know if I quite buy that. People know what their emotions are already. If midi-chlorians are just another word for emotions I think it totaly ruins the Force. I think the midi-chlorians are a separate entity that tells you what the Force needs in order to balance out. Perhaps you have to use your mind to figure out how to accomplish that. I can buy that more, although someone else will have to convince me of it.

 

I'll reply to this first because it's the shortest and most contentious at the moment.

What I meant was that midi-chlorians give a particular person insight into the emotions of OTHER PEOPLE. I also don't think the Force is trying to convince everyone to balance it, but we'll see if I can explain that later. Through the midis, one senses the will of other people, the emotions of other people, etc. They are not the same as one's OWN emotions.

I hope that clears it up.

 

That's brilliant! (Especially the bolded bit).

I don't get you here. Palpatine appeals directly to Luke's feelings: "Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!" The Jedi seem to impart a more balanced view, if anything -- they encourage Luke to heed his intuition, but they also caution against rash decisions (e.g. Luke going to Bespin). Maybe this is why Luke triumphs: he takes that balanced view of the Jedi, augments it with the unbalanced words of Palpatine, and creates a NEW kind of balance. I think Palpatine goes wrong because he over-emphasises this one aspect. Where is his "to become a wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force..." rhetoric now?

I can go with this. Cloud City seems to change everything. The Skywalkers literally SKY WALK -- touching the ethereal strata above, each acquiring new insight that will ultimately help the other.

My head is in a spin here. Maybe I'm missing something, but I think MisterVader put it better with his codes / laws paradigm.

Interesting.

I can't think of an example. You might be positing something that isn't true. When do the Jedi enact this thinking? When they're leading clones? When they're training kids from birth? When they're holding information back from Luke (more of a grey area, this one)? Nope. I just don't see it.

Thank you, sk.

I want to add an extra thing on balance. This is something that DARTHFINGERZ raised in the "Good Choice Of Words" thread. In ROTS, Palpatine declares, "I am the Senate!" but in ANH, we hear that the Senate has been dissolved by him. Also: In the same film, Palpatine / Sidious is seen ripping it up, literally hurling pods at Yoda; in effect, he is destroying himself and the balance he has nurtured and maintained. The scales are already tipping back in favour of the Jedi after Order 66. Once Palpatine has destroyed the Jedi, he starts to get arrogant, gloating about it to Yoda, and then doing this. Obviously, for

 

The midichlorians are simply the conduit between the Force user and the Force. It is the Force istself that enables people to be intuitive - see others feelings.

It's how this specific power is used that is the difference.
The Jedi use their intuitive abilties to do good by helping people make the right choices for them and everyone else.
The Sith use their intuitive abilities to do evil by manipulating people to make the wrong choice.

This is where balance comes in. It is the ith who cause imbalance through their use of the dark side because they create a galaxy where evil is far easier to come by. Without the Sith, good and evil are balanced. People make up their own minds. When the Sith are about they breed corruption and greed. Due to this there is more evil in the galaxy.
The Force is created by all living things. Now should all life be affected by the Sith, which it will be, then that has a knock on effect with the Force itself.

The imbalance isn't simply caused by a Sith running around killing people. It is caused by the Sith's capacity to spread evil. That is why their destruction is so important. While one Sith exists, he or she has the ability to sway the balance and turn more people evil - be it creating another Sith or simply manipulating those through greed or fear.

When the Sith are destroyed and only the Jedi exist there is balance. The Jedi work as policemen so they can maintain peace and justice in the galaxy. But they aren't influencial enough to sway the balance themselves. They can merely maintain the staus quo between good and evil.