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Discussion The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by BretHart, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 17, 2013
    You know, this is going to sound kind of silly, but I had a bad feeling about this film the second I saw those promo posters with all the red on them. Those posters took way more artistic license with the look of characters compared to what we typically have seen. They felt very 'artsy just for the sake of being artsy' and it turns out that's one of the criticisms about TLJ. Nevermind that no one in the film is actually wearing red; let's make their costumes red because it would look cool.
     
  2. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    It was style over substance. The whole red-infused campaign suggested something fresh and profound - which the movie obviously wasn’t.

    There is just very little to like about the movie, the trailers or the promotion - amazing for a film that brought Luke Skywalker back for his first major appearance since the early 1980s!
     
  3. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    What TLJ has shown is a complete disregard for the past as they move forward. I get that this is a business, but I don't care for turning Star Wars into "Marvel 2.0" . They're making a movie every year and will most likely be pushing to make it so that one doesn't need to see the films as a whole. They were trying to have their cake and eat it too, such as using the original characters to get people interested, but not using them that much so as to not overshadow the new character. I understand it, but they didn't have to strip everything to the bone with those characters to prop up the new ones. What they did to Luke was a disservice to the character and the fans.
     
  4. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Yeah I mean in hindsight they probably should have stayed and fought the fleet while sending the leadership to escape. With the way Poe took down the dreadnought and holding took down the supremacy they could have decimated the fleet and had more survivors by doing a pitched battle. Also why no surface to air cannons like they had on Hoth?


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  5. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 17, 2013
    Here's what I don't get: With all this new material, there was no room for Luke, Han and Leia?
     
  6. nargso_calrissian

    nargso_calrissian Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, it's coming up to Lent and even while a lapsed Catholic, I sometimes still feel the call to do something for the run-up to Easter. So, I'll probably remove myself from all things Star Wars and TLJ related over that time. It'll probably even be good for me. But, when thinking about the last 6 weeks following the viewing of TLJ, I think the one thing I cannot get past is the degradation of Luke. That, to me, is the unforgivable part of this movie and one that will stick in my side every time I think about this movie (and the ST). That person in TLJ is not Luke, and I'm flabbergasted that some people think it is and actually applaud it. It's just fundamentally all wrong.

    It's strange, though. I don't think I appreciated how much Luke Skywalker was part of my 'inner world' until TLJ ripped him to pieces.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  7. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 17, 2013
    Don't let RJ, Disney or anyone else take Luke Skywalker away from you. I'm not. The rest of us aren't either, I hope. Luke Skywalker is, was, and always will be a hero. LS, not JS. :)
     
  8. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Your anecdote reminds me of my two viewings but specifically my second viewing.

    I was excited after a first viewing. Saw it with two die hards - a PT fan who grew up post OT and my brother an OT fan modtly.

    I was one out seeing positives. Neither of them have or will see ita second time despite being massive fans. I took on board their comments but focused on positives I saw.

    My second viewing was with my wife - not a SW at all.

    She became quite restless by the end but obviously knew I was into SW so went easy on it. She did mention structural issues and told me "she wouldn't tell anyone to go see it".

    My experience has been of the seven friends I trust on this stuff, two were happy initially (inc me) but both saw major issues they were happy to ignore, two were aghast, and the other three just saw it as harmless but weren't impressed.

    The score would now read as

    1 liked it (SW fan)
    1 no longer rates it (SW fan)
    2 hated it (SW fans)
    3 didn't rate it, gave it a meh (all non SW fans)

    I think this is a pretty solid sample reading these boards.

    None of these people are agenda driven in their responses. I've grouuped them but all their reactions are individual reactions. They're not "haters". Just movie fans.

    Some might come and say they know 7/7 that think it's the best film ever. And that's fine too.

    Since then I've seen it again and my powers of optimism have failed me. TLJ is sinking without a trace for me now.

    Pinning hopes on IX and Solo now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  9. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    He needs to be resurrected or not really dead and rebuild the Jedi Order properly. Rey needs to lose at least once in a duel, she's overly powerful and it's wholly unearned. They were too focused on trying to make her look like a strong character without putting in the work to make her a strong character.
     
  10. Eeyore freak

    Eeyore freak Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2016
    I feel like this might have been what RJ was going for, like Crait was the Resistance’s Alamo moment or something. But it didn’t work because it was pretty much the movie’s epilogue instead of the climax and the entire battle was...a few speeders going in a straight line for a few minutes before turning around.

    There’s just so many missed opportunities in this movie, which is what frustrates me the most, and I’m not even a “hater.” I had a good time at the theater when I watched it and there were a lot of parts I really liked. But some of the storytelling choices just baffle me.
     
  11. appleseed

    appleseed Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    The difference is Marvel has hundreds of lead characters and 50 years of stories (including about 30 years of good stories) to draw from. The idiots at "LFL" ignored stories by the series creator to do this junk.
     
  12. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    When I saw in Aftermath books that Luke practically didn't spend too much time with his sister (his family and best friend) and always was studying about jedi lore I thought "they definitely will show all Luke's knowledge in The Last Jedi" but... [face_dunno]
     
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Yeah, I'm mostly just playing around here. I mean, if you're a small fleet, with a supposedly smart leadership, which just succeeded in destroying some up-start Empire wanna-be's new death star, which then makes it impossible for them to instantly destroy the planet you're currently on...and...for some odd reason you also don't have a lot of fuel left, not even enough to gets ships from this planet to their immediate destination, and the planet base you're on, is equipped with provisions, and supplies, or at the very least could let your survive indefinitely or until help arrives, why decide to jump into orbit that is very guarded by huge FO Star Destroyers in orbit, know in advance that you'll run out of fuel almost immediately, and then be forced to travel slowly until you're picked off one by one until your reach your destination, which happens to be a planet that looks lifeless and desolate - unlike the grassy wooded one you currently occupy.

    I'm just surprised no one said:
    "Hey, um...General Leia...umm...you don't know me, I'm Steve, I just joined a few days ago, but why don't we just stay here and...er...RESIST. We are the Resistance aren't we? If the FO seizes this planet, they're carve out more territory in this sector. We don't even have any fuel left, not even enough to get to our immediate destination. Maybe we should just stay in, bunker ourselves under these fortified hills that we've built our base into, and fight them on the ground. At all costs. We could stay here, until help arrives. Us resisting the FO like this would be inspirational. Space is dangerous. This isn't like 30 years ago, when we had to leave Hoth, an ice planet with no provisions, surrounded by a galactic Empire all around us. The FO doesn't have any real power yet. This D'qar looks wooded and populated by things we could eat. It has water. We could make a good defense here. If my memory serves me right, Crait is filled with a salt landscape and crystal foxes, which you cannot eat, even the little ones. We would be sitting ducks there. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this yet? Why is everyone doing the stupidest thing possible right now?

    @Eeyore freak : Yes! Exactly. D'qar could have been an Alamo moment. The entire battle is on that planet. They don't have any fuel left. They can't go anywhere. They stay and fight with what they have. Bombers. X-wings. Whatever. Could have had a mid-movie battle right there. They could even loose the battle and hope is lost, and they'd still be down to a dozen or so soldiers. Until help finally arrives at the end of the movie because they're inspired by their RESISTANCE to the FO. Either Luke shows up, or suddenly a few fighters fly in and save some of them. Boom. The Resistance starts growing. Inspiration is shown, not told. Missed opportunity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  14. Eeyore freak

    Eeyore freak Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2016
    @DarkGingerJedi Luke and Rey arriving near the end of the battle with reinforcements, Gandalf style, would have been sweeeet.
     
  15. Sithblade11

    Sithblade11 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2013
    Especially after the Luke reveal at the end of TFA. You'd presume this stoic Jedi Master looking at Rey had removed himself from the spotlight after his failure with Ben, to gain further knowledge and understanding of the Force.

    Luke made the Force Awaken to call only the truly most adept Force uses to train with him and Rey was one. And there were already a few new apprentices with him on the Island and after training in TLJ they would then go out to help the Resistance take on the First Order, a bit like these warriors [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  16. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    This is not a hard rule to follow.
     
  17. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    This really bugged me in TFA. I thought it got even more confusing here as they started throwing around the term Rebel too. I mean partisans would have been a better term although less catchy.

    I also don’t understand how they are so short staffed in TFA and then have a huge bomber fleet here. But even with the bombers it’s a pretty sparse force compared to the rebels in RO and the OT


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  18. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 6, 2016
    It's interesting how this plays out, but in the opposite nature of the past. When the prequels came out, hell even with watching ROTJ as a kid, I hardly ever heard complaints. Most people I knew loved them or thought they were "alright." From time to time you'd hear a nitpick about some films but the overall reception to all of them was quite positive. Same with some stories of the EU, that I later found out were controversial (like some of the standalone books or the New Jedi Order). People were just into it and it was great. Then when I came online I found out that the narrative was that ROTJ was the worst of the OT, the PT sucked I guess, and the EU [and NJO] was hotly debated. That was a surprise to me and at first I was taken in by their thoughts on it. For a time, I too found my tastes shift to all the "cool" answers -- that ESB was the "best" one and that the PT was bad except for a part or two in ROTS. As for the NJO, I loved it too much to disavow it and it wasn't as "cool" to dislike it, but I basically forgot about it. Then as the years went on I rewatched SW and found fans of the PT, of ROTJ, of NJO. And they were saying the stuff I'd grown up feeling the same on. After reconnecting with the material and rekindling my interest I found I still loved ROTJ the most, enjoyed the PT, enjoyed the EU. And that experience left me profoundly mixed and kind of displeased with the SW fanbase in general. Particularly the fanbase "at a distance" -- in other words, what was accessible and popular online.

    Now fast forward to today. Most people I meet who saw TLJ, it's interesting, I found that most are mixed about it, some absolutely hate it, one or two people loved/liked it. Those that liked it tended not to be SW fans and the one who did like it who was a hardcore SW fan told me he doesnt really see the movies as one giant thing so he's cool with completely different directions -- in a sense he treats every new film as Infinities. Overall it is the first time I've seen such a negative polarizing reaction to a SW movie amongst people I know IRL who love SW.

    Though I should note there was one other time in my life where I truly had to hop off the SW train for a while, and it wasn't just me. One was a story very similar to what they did -- Legacy of the Force from the EU -- and what it did to some characters is similar in damage to what TLJ does to the saga characters. Suffice to say I refused to finish it or even acknowledge it after I realized what they were doing, it was so wrong. The only other time I can think of that engendered that kind of SW refusal was, on a less intense level, the release of The Clone Wars in 2008 on the silver screen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  19. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    A few interesting points.

    I love the idea that they could have made an Alamo like stand the central premise. I think that could have been compelling and told many of the same stories.

    Dqar was too similar to Yavin in looks though that’s more on TFA.

    Someone made the point that all the planets are so desolate and sparse. This is very true and what’s worse is that Jakku feels the most populated. Canto Bight which could be populated feels like one building only. Doesn’t do much for the world building and rich tapestry of the galaxy.

    I wasn’t a fan of Rian before seeing this but was honestly really excited. I wanted this to build on a TFA that I liked but didn’t love. The trailers got me excited and I could see potential, but the way it played out really let me down. It didn’t feel like Star Wars to me and wasn’t even fun to watch.


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  20. RexTano

    RexTano Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Unfortunately, while this is explained, it's explained in various novels that take place between ROTJ & TFA. Basically, the original Rebellion defeated the Empire around a year after ROTJ, in this huge battle in and over Jakku. The remnants of the Empire escaped into the Unknown Regions to regroup and rebuild, and became the First Order. Meanwhile, the Republic, restored after ROTJ, was getting its footing.

    Fast forward several decades and the FO, rebuilt and formidable, began moving in on the Republic to reestablish the Empire, capturing system after system. Leiia, realizing the grave danger it presented to the Republic, urged the senate to establish a military force capable of taking it on. It refused. So, instead, she left the senate to form the Resistance (to the FO). She also left because it was revealed that she was Vader's daughter, a secret she'd kept till then.

    There's much more, but that's the gist of it. Also, Snap Wexley builds cool robots and is a great pilot, and was mentored by his mom's new boyfriend, Wedge Antilles. So obviously RJ left both out of TLJ.
     
  21. nargso_calrissian

    nargso_calrissian Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, he is not. He is still there in the head. Courageous, honourable and true.

    But, one can't also pretend that TFA and TLJ didn't take him in the direction they did. It is what it is.
     
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  22. nargso_calrissian

    nargso_calrissian Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Indeed. I hadn't thought it at the time, but the shot of Luke's x-wing in the water made me think afterward that he could have left quite easily. I mean, why even show that shot at all? Was it to raise expectations only to dash them at the end - yet another of RJ's inane "subversions"?

    After the movie, I thought it would have been so good to see that X-Wing alongside the Millenium Falcon, Luke at the controls with R2 behind him again (like old times) but flying it manual, rise into the sky above Ach-To and speed to Crait. I'd probably still have goosebumps! But, no, we got sad sack Luke and deflection and disappointment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  23. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    very well said, but TLJ did a damage that no other Star Wars movie, novel or comic has done before. :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  24. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    One thing about the PT and OT. Even though they made a great singular story, you could just watch one or the other and feel you've watched a complete arc and story that can stand on its own. I can't imagine anybody watching the ST as the first and not watching the PT and OT to get some bearings. I don't think the ST could stand on its own. It would feel like a story lacking any center. And when you do go to get the required background in the PT and OT, you will scratch your head at how the ST is the same story.

    Circling back to the OT characters in ST; the OT and ST handled the previous generation differently.

    PT characters OB1 was introduced as a crazy old man (lowered expectations) that then became the catalyst for Luke's journey as he went out so the Rebels could complete the important Death Star destruction mission. OT character Luke and Han are introduced with Rey fangirling out (raised expectations) as Luke goes on to seriously let her down and Han tells us he's regressed.

    One lowered the bar for the old timers only to have them exceed expectations. The ST raised the bar only to be seriously let down. In a sense, if you are young and ST is your first Star Wars, the message is that the OT and PT before it was just a bunch of overhyped characters. I put that more on RJ than JJ. And RJ's post TLJ interviews have really turned me off to him as a person.

    Now there is an interesting premise. Have the same chase, but have the bulk of the Rebellion escape in the other two ships while Leia, Poe, Holdo, Rose (but not Finn) and a handful of other Resistance/Rebels lead the F.O. to Crait. There they ultimately are killed by the F.O. Luke can even show up (for real). Luke fights until he is the last and then finds a way to escape.

    Now that would have been emotional, a great send off for Leia and Poe was supposed to die in TFA, so this both gives him a very strong shining moment while also putting the focus back on Rey, Finn and Kylo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  25. vong333

    vong333 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    This whole new Disney Star Wars is off. They took the Death Star which was a technological marvel in the old canon and turned it into a dark side weapon needing kyber crystals to fire that super laser. They even made it bigger when it was well established before. I did not like that at all. They then made Starkiller a dark side weapon, so now the force is quatified by the 100th power. They then made pimp daddy let me take advantage Snole of a Skywalker to destroy the Skywalker clan, and then you have super Rey. Those rocks that she lifted at the end of the movie were no joke. Then they took the force and if you look at Rebels, you'll notice that they have done things their that are whacked, whacked stuff that has moved on into the movies (sequel trilogy) from freezing a laser beam, to leia flying in space, to Luke levitating and projecting himself light years away. The new Disney canon novels are also not far behind either having removed much of the original star wars characters from actual stories with the exception of Darth Vader whom became a very serious super bad ass that he might as well be the new Emperor.

    TLJ may have been the best example of Star Wars trying to become a Marvel type movie with the different expanded force powers, and let me tell you at the end when Luke appeared to take on the entire First Order it felt odd. I thought the guy was going to fly to the walkers and single handed cut the legs done and systematically break tem done. That super hero moment.
     
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