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Discussion The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by BretHart, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. appleseed

    appleseed Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Sad thing is they have people still there who get it like Filoni, but his influence is limited to animation.

    As I've said before, if you're unhappy with what they're doing, vote with your wallet. I have bought no merch since TLJ came out and I cut the Marvel SW comic today. And obviously don't go to see Solo.

    I'm still keeping my Millennium Falcon, though. I did love Star Wars from when I was 8 years old until I was 49.
     
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  2. vong333

    vong333 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    I think the best star wars was from before. Once they cancelled the expanded universe and they came out with these movies I felt that the core meaning was lost. That's just me.
     
  3. castlecrasher2

    castlecrasher2 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Episodes 1-9 aren't the Skywalker trilogy, they're the Death Star trilogy.
     
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  4. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Interesting. LFL has added detail where it wasn't needed and lacked detail where it was needed. But what upsets me the most is that LFL has been overly defensive and arrogant when it comes to criticism. They actually attack the solid critiques instead of quietly working on upping their game.
     
  5. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    I do and SW comics are cancelled since TLJ came out, also no new merch, no new canon novels and no new toys of all the new characters. And the most important, no Solo or IX in cinema. There are only 2 exceptions, I will get the bluray of TLJ (because of Mark who did a tremendous job) and the novel of the movie. But for both purchases I use the cheapest version, so only standard bluray + TLJ paperback novel. But these are my last purchases of ST related content. [face_sigh]

    Gave toys of the new characters + some books to a friend. Of course I will keep my Luke toys, except a few I upgraded and gave to arjank. I will also keep my recently bought used books of old legend EU novels. After my disappointment calms down a bit, I will read these books and enjoy the real Luke Skywalker there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  6. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Happy for ya, Nightangel. Trust me, it's lovely to pick up the Legend EU novels and see Luke, Han, Leia and company in there. It's like visiting old friends.
     
  7. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Technically it isn't Disney who've made the Death Star use Kyber Crystals, that was established the incomplete Utapau arc of TCW, which was then carried forwards into the first season of Rebels, before being brought up again in Rogue One. So Disney is just following what was established by Lucas and Filoni before the buyout.

    There's nothing really dark side about the process, unless you interpret the DS a functioning like a giant lightsaber. I suppose it's a perversion of the Jedi's central weapon, but it runs purely on tech, no spirituality.

    That's why Jedha worked well in R1. The DS runs on Kybers, so a good place to get Kybers would be old Jedi sites. This ties in the gap of the now missing Jedi directly to the current situation, and relied on Jedi history and philosophy far more than anything in TLJ.

    It's also nice, as it's a big shoutout to TCW, like seeing the Ghost is a shoutout to Rebels, or Mustafar or Corusecant are a shoutout to the PT. These all serve to make R1 more inclusive to me, as opposed be just being OT comfort food. TLJ practically ran off retelling OT moments (BUT BIGGER!), with nary a reference to the long history of SW.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  8. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    The sad thing is that not only Luke is destroyed as a character, but also Finn is beyond any redemption. His treatment in TFA was not perfect either, but he had some nice moments. In TLJ he is a complete failure with a useless mission and ridiculed at every moment. The Finn&Rose chemistry is terrible. Was there a way to make at least Finn interesting? Yes and even without changing much of the main story. Just combine 2 useless story arcs, like Holdo's secrets and Finn's codebreaker mission.

    So just let Holdo be a disillusioned soldier, who thinks the FO will win this war (or as an alternative the FO has someone she cares imprissoned). So Holdo secretly sabotages the escape of the resistance. Poe gets suspicious and wants to hack a main computer to get the information what Holdo plans. So they need a codebreaker. Finn + Poe (better than Rose entering the game) start to Canto mission. Finn and Poe get separated while Poe goes for the codebreaker and Finn gets imprisoned and finds DJ. DJ or the master codebreaker later leads Finn + Poe to information what Holdo really plans. With these information they return and call out Holdo for betraying them.After some fighting Leia appears and reminds Holdo what it means to be a hero. In the last minutes Holdo sacrifices herself to save the remaining resistance and her friend Leia. So with this we would have a compelling 2nd story arc and all achieve something in this, even Finn. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Finn is a wannabe player - all that sexual tension with Phasma, his interest in Rey and now his interest in Rose - all in the space of a few days. No wonder he's rubbish at being a rebel - he's got a one-track mind.
     
  10. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    You know, I've been critical about world building in ST and thus I can't say I'm surprised to find an almost superior opening for TFA that establishes the state of the galaxy with no dialogue in just a few minutes.



    My only problem with this opening is that I have yet to find a way of how it would lead to the rest of TFA story. I was musing about whether or not a fleet of TIE fighters would appear shortly after the New Republic cruisers leave, revealing that the Empire lives on in the First Order and they are planning to attack Jakku. I'm still thinking the pacing is off. But here we see what was missing in TFA: The lack of a Republic presence. If we had seen the First Order ships hiding from the New Republic fleet patrolling the area, it would establish the First Order as the underdogs, afraid of an actual fight with the New Republic.
     
  11. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    What are the Resistance and the First Order actually fighting over? How far did the New Republic extend? A few core systems, or hundreds/thousands of systems? Should viewers really be asking that basic question after 2 movies of a trilogy?

    Are the Resistance fighting purely on behalf of the Republic, or will they fight against the First Order no matter what or where? What if the First Order are attacking a system that is itself anti-Republic and anti-democracy?

    Why do we want the Republic to be re-established? Why does there have to be a far-reaching government that rules over the galaxy, rather than independent systems? I'll actually give the sequel trilogy credit if at the end of it, systems become free and independent. I'll roll my eyes if they just create the conditions for a new New Republic.
     
  12. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Since 2015 Celebration, I was worried about the new good faction being called the Resistance. The term usually refers to resisting against either a foreign occupier or a government tyrant. Neither would be a good status for what is supposed to be the era of the New Republic. I said to myself: "Why can't the Resistance be called the New Republic?"

    The actual reason why it's called the Resistance is rather weak. Leia leaves to form a militia and the New Republic secretly fund it. But militia does not fit the term resistance, especially if they are operating outside of First Order territory. In TFA, it didn't seem like the First Order was able to take over anything. And yet they treat the Resistance as a threat and the New Republic as an afterthought when it should be the other way around.

    Really, Resistance should have been used for the sequels when the First Order actually wins. The surviving New Republic remnants would become the Resistance and strike back against the First Order from within before it becomes a permanent shift in the status quo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    John Boyega and Daisy Ridley obviously have off-screen chemistry and appear to be mates. Rey and Finn were established as a good partnership in The Force Awakens. I don't know why The Last Jedi sought to break that partnership up for the whole movie. They have what, 10 seconds screen time together in TLJ?

    Instead, we got Rey having no relationship with Luke and Finn having an irrelevant and unbelievable relationship with Rose.

    Now that Rey has realised Ben isn't for turning, what relationships has she got to go forward with? She's only just met Poe. She's the main character, and she hasn't got a significant relationship with any other character after 2 movies. She just happens to be part of the Resistance. It's all so superficial. Rey and Finn clearly regressed as characters in TLJ.

    I was interested in Rey as a character after TFA. I thought she could develop in to a really good Star Wars character. She just came across as one dimensional in TLJ, and I'm no longer invested in her 'journey'.
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Interesting, that was one location of the ST I so far liked the most - and the customisation was done with the Jedi tree and the cave.

    The thing I'm actually now wondering about is whether we'll continue to see these porgs nesting inside the Falcon in all Falcon scenes in Episode IX. JJ, continuity, please. [face_party]

    In my headcanon I'd like to keep the option that Chewie brought these porgs along as traveling fare. [face_skull]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    P.S.
    Somebody should have familiarized the illustrator of the original book:

    [​IMG]

    with the fairy / morality tale of The Pied Piper of Hamelin:

    [​IMG]

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The size increase I can understand - it had been flip-flopping back and forth between 160km and 120km, with 160km coming from the very earliest sources - so I can see why somebody might have picked that figure.

    Even in Legends, crystals were part of the Death Star - they just weren't specifically kyber crystals, before.
     
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  16. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    The problem is, is that you resist against invaders, and rebel against rulers. Oddly, they don't actually really become a technical resistance until the very end of TLJ, or even after when the galaxy is 'inspired', when the FO is now 'reigning'. But for some reason, during the movie, they start calling themselves Rebels, interchangeably. As if there's no difference. Up until that point, they should have just been...as you said...the NR. I'm not exactly sure the logic why they had to be secretly funded, when Leia, the Resistance, and the NR knew for a fact, for years, that the Imperial Remnant was militarizing itself. Even if you misjudge how large the FO is, it's still a threat. One that is breaking your treaty. Why the need for shadow governments and hidden militias. Was the NR trying to secretly fund the military, but not expose how much to potential traitors and spies. Well, they did a great job there didn't they.

    Even so though, as a Resistance, they fail to even do that. A resistance puts up a fight and doesn't let the enemy invade their territory. The Resistance failed this both times in the movie. If someone was entering your home, you'd resist by closing the door or fighting them so they can't enter. You'd protect your home. You wouldn't leave the front door open and run out the back door into the woods. Yay...I've resisted the intruders. I'm not even sure why the FO can just fly around, wilily nilly, in TFA even before they took out the NR. They seem to move about the galaxy like they own the place, like the Empire did, right from the get go, as if there's no Good Guys at all. The FO mentions that using SKB is their first real go at proving how powerful they are, you'd almost think that up until the point they'd have to be ... I dunno...stealthy, or cautious about their movements. You'd think that at the very least the NR would have border agents, or ships patrolling making sure nothing entered their space. But...nope...the entire NR fleet flew around the capital worlds only. For ... reasons. This makes the stakes so unbelievably undefined and undramatic.

    I realize that the story says this all make sense, and it lines up A to B to C to D...and says there, done. Reasons. But none of this is done well. It's poor world-buiding and poor story writing.
     
  17. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Exactly. It appears to be common knowledge throughout the galaxy that the Resistance is supported by the Republic. Why would a military faction of the reigning government call itself 'the resistance'? That's like a military faction that is supported by the US government and includes part of the US military calling itself 'the resistance' because it opposes North Korea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  18. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    It does sound like an homage to Iron Sky



    :p

     
  19. -LordSkywalker-

    -LordSkywalker- Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2013
    I could be wrong but the cynical part of me believes that it is as simple TPTB wanted to be rid of “the Republic” as fast as possible so we could be back to Empire vs. Rebels logic be damned.

    For me it should have been NR v. FO throughout the ST. The attack on the Hosnian system should have been a Pearl Harbor like attack and would have the NR on its heels and lose some but not all of its territory. Then if you have to have a “Resistance” then it can be the NR forces stranded in now FO-controlled territory. Leia could be the commander in that territory.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  20. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    For me it comes down to the larger decision the that good guys must be underdogs. For some reason that was the only way to show drama. But in the saga story, the good guys should not be underdogs anymore...at least not in the same way as the OT.

    Here's the progression throughout the saga-

    PT:
    Big Dog - Good guys = Old Republic / Jedi
    Under Dog - Bad guys = Succession planets / Sith

    Trilogy ends with the big dogs winning, and but become evil. Remaining good guys are now underdogs, and flee.

    OT:
    Big Dog - Bad Guys = Empire / Sith
    Under Dog -Good guys = Rebel Alliance / Jedi

    Trilogy ends with the under dogs winning, and turn the galaxy good once more. Remaining bad guys are now underdogs, and flee.

    ST
    Big Dog - Bad guys = First Order / Ren
    Under Dog - Good guys = New Republic/Resistance / Jedi.

    Somehow in a story where the good guys should be the big dogs, we find them as the continual under dogs. The OT story ended with evil on the decline. The the forces of light were ascending. But the ST shows the dark side, the bad guys, are way more powerful than ever before. It would be one thing if the Empire was never defeated, but clearly they were. Clearly the NR became big dogs, but somehow remarkably, are still weaker in every way than the bad guys who lost everything. If anything, the NR should be the big dogs, ruling the galaxy once more, and the bad guys, if anything, should be like the former rebels...an upstart group of scrappy fighters who get what they can, who refuse to go away. Or at least have the galaxy have clear territories devoted to either side. A cold war standoff if you will. What we got was just messy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  21. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    One way to rationalize all of that could be that the FO right from the start infiltrated the New Republic and bribed its way to the top leading positions (with Leia catching wind of that and starting her "Resistance" thing).
    Since the FO officers 'now' controlling the New Republic are a larger threat to those from the FO who sent them (and sit in the Outer Rim), the Outer Rim FO decides to get rid of their counterparts in the New Republic and everybody else.

    But in such a scenario Starkiller Base wouldn't make much sense at all, considering the probable costs involved, it would have probably been way more economic to go for another bribe scheme or something similar.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  22. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Can I just say, I laughed a good ten minutes at that gif!! So apt!

    Not to mention it's like those of us who question the sequels are The Last Jedi surrounded in the Arena. These are enjoyable films, but they just have things missing.

    Agreed, it's so sad.

    The former Star Wars films (the SAGA), was a new franchise and so elements could be taken on their own. And indeed we had exposition and explanations about the setting (the galactic status quo), the characters and the plot arc (the Empire, the Force, the Jedi, the Rebellion etc). The role of the Skywalkers made clear. That is possible when you have a new story. Indeed the prequels too tie in to the saga (the fall of the Republic, transition to Empire, the fall of the Jedi, the revenge of the Sith and the Skywalker role in this).


    However TFA and TLJ, as part of the same franchise and also the main saga (not anthology films) have to tie in. They are part of the Star Wars saga which is a double edged sword. It means you get a worldwide brand recognition and are part of a special family of films (not only the anthology, but a crucial chapter/previous episode slot in an epic space opera revolving around the Skywalkers), instant publicity and part of the story. Powerful, but with great responsibility. Part of Lucas’ visionary masterpiece and ONE STORY.


    You are required by virtue of the fact that these are SEQUELS following on from the OT (and PT), to align with previous films, with believable logical progression, an overarching story, settings, galactic exposition and visual styles etc. The writers of these films seem to be writing this as they go along, with no plan. No story arc. No one 9 film saga. Making a cake without knowing what cake you want to make. When the cake is part of a 3 course meal.


    It’s like they’re saying to a random writer, “Hey mind writing the next one? Do whatever you think will be cool. Don’t worry about tying it together. Thanks.”


    They want to have their cake and eat it. Benefiting from the sweet reward of the Star Wars franchise we all know and love, without actually putting in the effort to form a beautiful story which was always what Star Wars was about. Luke, Yoda, Darth Vader, the Emperor, Padme, Princess Leia, Han Solo etc, the good guys (the Empire), the bad guys (Rebel scum), your point of view, all these characters we knew and loved came about because of a superb STORY. The new films don’t seem to have a story and are constructed the wrong way round. You need foundations in a building firstly. You can’t say I want to have this character who is this and then randomly fit them all together. It’s like fitting different sized puzzle pieces together. These films are visually spectacular, but nowhere near what they could have been. Almost akin to just churning out Marvel like films, without focusing on epic storytelling which is what made Star Wars the greatest movie franchise on Earth from which other stories/movies were inspired from.


    This isn’t a new story and setting like the OT. That is the huge difference which is seemingly not understood. If Lucas’ original vision had been followed, no doubt we would have seen ONE saga, with ONE grand story, focused on the Skywalkers.


    One reason that Rogue One worked well, was because it actually had a story. With characters who grew and developed, with flaws etc. Notice that the film also had a female lead and worked wonderfully. So did Wonderwoman etc. With the ST, there are too many convoluted characters who are awesome from day one, no consistency. No explanation and pay off. TFA needed more flashbacks, more exposition. A logical transition to be shown of what happened to the great Empire, the return of the Jedi order, what is the Republic, who is Snoke etc. Random bad guy villain just seems to belittle all that came before.


    Even the Windu return would have worked. I believe Lucas envisaged Vader’s grandchildren. And Battlefront 2’s trailer (not the story that was in the game itself) almost hinted that the Empire searched for Vader’s heir (Luke) to lead them and maybe that might have worked too. But right now, we have no explanation of the transition or the status quo in the present. Nor do we really have a story. And we have a protagonist who is seemingly invulnerable, more powerful than anyone, and who does things in literally about a day and a half.


    Enjoyable films, but honestly come on, surely has no one heard the story of Darth Plageuis the Wise?


    I think that's the real trick isn't it (Han Solo quote). The issue is we REALLY needed exposition of what happened in between ROTJ and TFA. More flashbacks in TFA would have helped a lot. Almost like a Batman Begins introduction to the ST where we see young Bruce's story.

    I think something along the lines of the Empire searched for Vader's heir to lead them. At the same time it fought off the Rebels, and also emerging extreme break off factions (who would eventually run and hide and were being egged on by some mysterious leader). These break away factions became the First Order. Maybe the Empire still remains, though severely depleted and dejected in the Inner Core (Coruscant). The New Republic is shown to be established, but Mothma and corrupt Senators sideline Leia, Ackbar and the new emerging Jedi Order since well, they're just as power hungry and corrupt as the Old Republic.

    Maybe show us how apathetic the New Republic is to slavery and corruption and crime in the outer worlds (e.g. Canto Bight, Tatooine etc) just like the old one. And it labels those who question its ways as warmongers (Leia etc) or Imperial sympathisers. Maybe have the First Order paying off and having criminals attack cities in the Outer Rim and the First Order conveniently emerges to fight them off, looking like the only people who will restore order. Have the Empire of old, reluctant to join those who perverted the peacekeeping Empire into the First Order.

    I think the BF2 trailer (NOT the game story) almost hinted that Iden and Luke became a thing. That would have been interesting. Vader's heir (Luke) not taking on the mantle of leader to ensure a peaceful transition. And he regrets that.

    Ultimately show who the Force Snoke is. That would solve a lot of issues. I think the Tragedy of Darth Plagues the Wise would tie the whole saga together, and explain why things weren't finished in ROTJ. Not to mention make it plausible that a Skywalker would be turned and Luke went "missing" in search of the answers to defeat him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  23. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Yeah, that was weird. It’s not just the heroes that started referring them as Rebellion instead of the Resistance, the villains did that too. And it happened around at the same time. As if they mutually agreed behind scenes on the nomenclature change.

    I like to imagine RJ kept mistakenly typing Rebels instead of Resistance in his script but midway through it he just gave up correcting.

    JJ might as well continue this and open IX with all the characters referring to the FO as the Empire.
     
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  24. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Great avatar! Yes it's so confusing. Wish we saw what happened to peacekeeping Empire of old. The First Order is something twisted and evil.

    Agreed no transition or exposition of where the Empire or Jedi are, or what happened?

    @Qui-Riv-Brid

    These are interesting for those interested:





     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  25. Darth Hater

    Darth Hater Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Evacuation makes the most sense to me. I can't remember them showing any major ion cannons on the planet's surface, but even if they did, it would probably have a limited arc of fire, like in ESB, so it shouldn't be that hard for the FO to avoid the danger circle. Assuming they didn't have a base that sprawled throughout the planet, once the Resistance bunkered down all the FO would have to do is destroy the entrance to their hangars. Once that is accomplished, their SDs should be relatively secure and the FO ground troops could start a siege to take out the Resistance forces. Not to mention the FO has a Dreadnaught which would be more than capable of knocking out major portions of the base.

    Also from another post re the hyperspace tracking: I always found it lame that only the lead ship can be the active tracker. I would find it more believable that only one/the lead ship had the capability, but it's more of a contrived plot point since the writers invented the problem they then had to have the characters defeat.
     
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