ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Removed baiting.

 

Sadly RJ confirmed in a Q&A that Chewie absolutely did not eat a Porg.

I prefer it your way, though.

 

Whoa there partner, this here’s the hater thread. Now let’s see what the problem is….

Now there’s your problem, you’re one of them gushers we’ve been hearing about! Haven’t you heard, we don’t give a darn about professional critics round these parts, we’re simple folk. Now, let’s see what all them simple folk think about TLJ….

 

This thread is for the sole sake of bashing the film. It is the sole purpose for which it exists. Every other thread is for positivity and/or discussion of the film and its pros/cons in a constructive manner.

 

So we're not doing anything constructive here... got it. This thread is not for people who didn't like the movie, or people who have constructive complaints, it's for mindless "bashing" or "hating". I edited my last post because I thought I was misinterpreting something, but this is in fact a "keep those filthy, non-constructive haters in their own thread" type of thing.

It's funny, because almost everything here has been constructive. People don't dislike this film for no reason, we aren't bashing it just to bash it. There are so many objective problems with the story, the characters, the plot, etc. that have been pointed out over and over again... and I guess, as usual, certain fans label any kind of criticism as hate.

If this keeps hardcore fans of the movie from derailing everything in here and defending even the smallest of complaints to the death, then it's probably a good thing, but it's now clear what the real motivation for these changes was.

 

I think my issue in general with the ST is the theme of it is contradictory. TFA was all about nostalgia, basking in the past and TLJ is all about forgetting it, and moving on yet the OT iconography is just as present if not more so (TFO taking over the galaxy, Resistance becoming the Rebellion).

I mean if the theme is "go to the past to move forward," then hiring the same guy who brought it to the past in the first place to do Episode IX just seems...weird. Especially since the timespan of "George has nothing to do with this. This is about the Old SW" is now "This is George's idea. We want to move forward" within 3 years.

 

I assumed this thread was actually a place where dissenters are able to debate the merits of the film without fear of being persecuted for thought crimes.

This mod directive makes it sound like a ghetto set up to contain undesirables where anyone ambivalent or positive towards the film are not welcome.

 

Congratulations, mods. Finally we know what you think about everyone who see and discuss about the flaws of TLJ.

 

The “constructive discussion” taking place on this thread is the very definition of a bubble or an echo chamber, by design (and that’s fine - I’m not using that as a negative here) - it’s constructive within limited terms of reference, but is ultimately “constructive discussion amongst people who strongly dislike the film”. The merits of the films aren’t being debated here because a lot of people simply aren’t interested in the merits of the film (or don’t see merit in the film or some aspects of it) and because the rest of the forum is geared around open debate (again, it is understandable to occasionally want a less open debate, if you disliked it)

Constructive discussion about aspects of the film with a willingness to listen to and engage with alternative viewpoints can take place everywhere else. Maul’s point above about “objective problems with many aspects of the film” illustrates exactly why this thread is necessary - those “objective problems” aren’t universally held, and you’ve been given a space where you aren’t held to standards of acknowledging alternative viewpoints, pretty much because elsewhere debating those fundamentals has at some point derailed every thread into a discussion of how terrible TLJ is.

There are elements of both sides wanting their cake and eating it. Before the new ruling, I occasionally posted here to clarify stuff and got drawn into debates, and that was wrong of me because here is not the place for it. But I think it’s absolutely fair that people who dislike the film or aspects of it) have a place to vent, free from being told they’re wrong. But I also think people who want to vent and who consider themselves judged on “thought crimes” when people disagree with them elsewhere, can’t really complain too much about the designation of this thread as an effective safe space; either you want constructive discussion that may fundamentally contradict your take on the film, or you don’t. (And it seems pretty clearly laid out - if your position is open to being swayed by alternatives, post it on the relevant main board. If not, post it here. If you choose to post your complaint here, the implication is you’d rather not have it questioned. It’s not the mods defining people posting here as “haters”, or as people wanting to “bash” - it’s people choosing to post their opinion free from dissenting views who are self identifying as such)

It does seem a bit strange that on the one hand there are people who have spent over a month repeatedly talking in the strongest possible terms about how much they hated TLJ, who are now offended that the moderating team have observed a need some people have to be able to express their hatred of the film.

 

This isn't the place for this discussion. Let's end it here.

 

Revisting the Lucas biography Skywalking the Chapter 8 about the production of ESB shared some insight into Lucas' approach to filmmaking. Didn't know where to post it but I think this thread is suitable to invite comparison:

George Lucas: "The trick is to know what you can leave to the audience's imagination. If they start getting lost, you're in trouble. Sometimes you have to be crude and just say what's going on, beause if you don't, people get puzzled." (to Kasdan) "Every little sentence has been gone over and speculated upon and looked at sixteen different ways."

John Korty: "George writes in very broad strokes. He breaks everything down into elements of entertainment. Is this an action picture? Do we care about this character? How do we get from A to B, and what does he say along the way?"

 

I think that is a good point.

To me it is a problem leaving pivotal plot points up to individual imagination. At least not if you realize that only one imagination/interpretation of a scene or character will make the story work. The writer can`t assume everyone will share their interpretation, especially not if something is clearly going to be divisive.

If Rian Johnson`s goal truly was to not make Luke Skywalker look like a coward for being on that island, then he should have made sure that Luke Skywalker didn`t look like a coward. Make it clear and obvious. And obviously even he didn`t assume that his reasons - while they were good enough for him, RJ, - would work for most people.

So what he did is let the character twist in the wind and if, predictably, lots of people found him cowardly, oh well. Wow, some goal meeting there. Maybe he didn`t realize he didn`t make the movie just for his own benefit and pleasure.

 

@Eeyore freak : Yes! Exactly. D'qar could have been an Alamo moment. The entire battle is on that planet. They don't have any fuel left. They can't go anywhere. They stay and fight with what they have. Bombers. X-wings. Whatever. Could have had a mid-movie battle right there. They could even loose the battle and hope is lost, and they'd still be down to a dozen or so soldiers. Until help finally arrives at the end of the movie because they're inspired by their RESISTANCE to the FO. Either Luke shows up, or suddenly a few fighters fly in and save some of them. Boom. The Resistance starts growing. Inspiration is shown, not told. Missed opportunity.[/QUOTE]

And the best part about this if they were to have their Alamo moment is that they would all be killed off making room for some characters with a character arc. This would probably necessitate making the third installment in the trilogy at least a two-parter. Talk about subverting expectations... ;p

I've always considered Luke's X-wing being in the water as a show of how committed he is to staying on Ach-To. I would say that once it had been in the water for more than a year the damage the water would have done to it would be irreparable, give or take considering the salt concentration of the lake/ocean. Sure his X-wing was in water when it was on Dagobah, but not nearly as long as we are lead to believe. Furthermore for all those people who are put off by Leia's use of (admittedly stupid) Force powers because we don't see/hear of her training, it's already been established that Luke can't lift an X-wing because it's too big. Don't know if that is the case for Jake or Luuke, though... ;p

 

They said years ago that they plan to release one movie a year indefinitely, so we've known this for a while.
https://www.wired.com/2015/11/building-the-star-wars-universe/

 

I saw the X-Wing as a nod to and takedown of ESB. Expectation: it's in the water again, this time Luke will raise it on his own and save the day! Reality: Nah.

Just like Rey's parentage reveal was leading to another ESB twist, although this time the twist is there is no twist and Rey's parents were random drunkards. She's not special because of bloodline or because the old, iconic main character provided any meaningful guidance, she's special because she's special, which we already knew before Luke was brought back into the narrative. Basically the whole Luke/Rey subplot was a means of Rey seeing Kylo with his shirt off and then deciding he was the real help she needed.

To me a very odd combination of vaguely fulfilling the "see, just like the OT!" marketing mandate while also carrying an undercurrent of disdain for that original material.

 

Something else, what happened to Kylo's/Ben's blue lightsaber, he used to fight Luke in the night flashback? He used this to kill Luke's students? So what about this TFA flashback when he is with the KoR and has his red saber? This was not when he killed the students? So what is this flashback about then?

Not that I imagine Rian cared for what has happened in TFA.

 

Actually, there seems to be a lot more actual discussion going on here and in the now closed island/ teeth gnashers thread than in most of the other threads.

It’s interesting that some folks who like the film feel a need to lecture us about constructive discussion involving being willing to change our minds, when the person making the comment doesn’t really seem willing to do the same. Shouldn’t it be a two way street if that’s what “ constructive discussion “ actually is?

Personally, I never expect to change people’s minds. I just want them to understand why I don’t agree with them, and why I think what was done in TLJ, particularly with Luke and the OT films themselves, is really a huge deal, as what was done basically changes Star Wars forever. And in my opinion, in a VERY bad way.

Edit: whoops!! Sorry Mungo. I guess I should read all the posts before posting.

 

good theory, could be the case and that Kylo cracked the saber while turning it into a new red saber. And yep the raining scene could be later, I only wonder if anyone significant was killed there or this flashback will never be mentioned again?

Regarding your question about TFA, I was critical about TFA before the movie was released. Mainly because I expected Luke at a different place than him just disappeared. But I learned to appreciate this movie much more over time, because it created a very good introduction of Rey. I loved the Jakku scenes very much. I compare TFA now to my first reaction to the prequels, it was not exactly what I expected, but it has very good elements and character work. On the other hand I still have some criticism like Rey's instant powers, but expected this to be explained in TLJ. That's why I did give all my hope into this movie to present us at least a few cool answers to the questions raised there.

Now we come to TLJ and this is a movie I can never in my life enjoy, because it destroyed everything I love about Star Wars in an almost impossible way to repair. It leaves us with unlikeable new characters and a ruined Luke. I wish JJ good luck with this impossible task.....but I have zero hope to be honest.

 

My opinion about TFA is similar to others I've seen, where the initial reaction was good because it was a return to the grittier, OT-style Star Wars. A return to form in some ways, and a breath of fresh air from the style of the prequels (even though I enjoy them as well, issues aside). However, after mulling over the film and seeing it a couple times, you start to notice cracks and things that don't add up.

Like how a "resistance" can even exist when the Republic is in control of the galaxy, why a lifetime-indoctrinated stormtrooper like Finn is suddenly jolly and now enjoys killing the people he grew up with no qualms whatsoever, Rey's unexplained/extreme power, the obvious goal to make it Rebels vs. Empire again instead of doing something new, how the galaxy now feels extremely small (all Republic planets are apparently within eyesight of each other), etc.

Still, TFA is an enjoyable film and it's clear JJ has a real respect for Star Wars and its characters, and wanted to do it justice. Even though he failed in some aspects, and I'm not a fan of most of his work, I could sense that much. I certainly didn't walk out of TFA thinking it was horrible, with all these problems rolling around in my head... unlike TLJ. Watching TLJ, it became immediately clear that Rian Johnson was absolutely not the person for this job, and I would go so far as to say he doesn't respect SW as a whole.

That's obvious to me by the way Luke was treated, how previously-set-up mysteries were treated (also with zero regard for the next film), and how he essentially makes a joke of the whole thing throughout the movie. It's also clear that his main goal was to surprise the audience, at all costs, regardless of who or what would be destroyed in the process... and that's very unfortunate, because there were many decisions made that cannot be undone.

Also, I would say that knowing where TFA leads now, and knowing the "answers" to the questions it poses, makes it a less enjoyable film. TLJ hurt both the future and the past.

 

I loved TFA. I still do, though it’s definitely taken a hit because of TLJ. A lot of the criticisms of TLJ apply to that movie, imo, but because it’s a better movie they’re not so glaring for me. Rey, Finn and Poe are such wonderful breaths of fresh air in that movie. I feel like they fit right in the SW universe. And Kylo feels like an introduction to a bad guy with epic potential. Although the characters are the clear high point of that movie with me, it also has that SW vibe nailed for me. I know that’s not true for everyone, but it is for me.

 

I really enjoyed TFA. Yes, of course, I would have prefered a different direction in general than the OT characters not establishing something more lasting. And yes, of course, I would have loved to see Luke more involved and kicking ass and a reunion of the old trio. Even if the scene would have been bittersweet.

But TFA was what I heard some people say about TLJ: it didn`t give me what I wanted or expected but it managed to give me something else in its stead that I still liked. I never minded that it was such a retread of ANH plot-wise. There are worse films whose plot one can steal.

Incidentally, my reaction is why I don`t accept "you only had your headcanons" criticism over not liking TLJ. I was giving TFA an honest chance, despite it not being what I wanted it to be and it endeared itself to me on its own merits. I gave TLJ the same chance and it spat in my face pretty much.

Granted, TFA did have its flaws as well. The SKB attack run was such a bland rip-off of the trench run in ANH. The final fight should have had a slightly different conclusion. I liked Rey initially managing to throw the mind probe back on Kylo - and notice in that scene she actually struggles with using a force power. Lo and behold. I also did like the saber grab moment with the Burning homestead score over it. But Rey should have only been able to barely hold on afterwards. The moment where she closed her eyes, went "the force" and then immediately was his superior in fighting was stupid.

That`s seriously not how the force works. And never should work because it`s a narrative dead zone if characters can download deus ex machina feats into them when needed. You will not see that in any other movie worth their salt because it`s terrible writing. I only allowed it because I thought "okay, lets wait, maybe episode 8 will reveal something to put that in context". By which I don`t mean a related reveal. I wanted one but didn`t expect one.

Though, overall, the characters were likeable. Kylo was interesting and I thought if you can`t have Luke interacting in the plot, making him the central mystery OF the plot was a good way to pay tribute to the character and build up suspense.

Along comes TLJ and burns all that down. I mean, I still love the OT. I have to ignore TLJ in its entirety to keep enjoying the OT but I can still watch the movies and as a trilogy, they work for me. I love the characters, I root for them, I cheer for their happy ending. I have speficially tried since watching TLJ and the OT is fine.

But TFA? Now that TLJ has given me no context for Rey, doubled down on her being flawlessly and blandly overpowered and threw Luke under the bus to hand her an unearned legacy, I dislike the character. And going back to TFA, that colours my feeling when watching it. Knowing how Luke got trashed inTLJ, finding him being the central mystery of TFA also makes it a letdown. Once you know where it all ends, you just roll your eyes.

This is unfortunate for TFA because the movie hasn`t suddenly gotten bad or worse in itself. The sequel just retroactively made it mean a lot less and detracted from it. That isn`t the fault of JJ and the film he created, though.

 

I loved TFA, it felt like a proper Star Wars movie after the prequels. It had a real OT feel to a lot of it. The music was good, Rey’s introduction and general mystery was interesting. I liked the design of the Jakku junk yard, I really liked Maz and her castle. I was practically in tears of joy when I saw Luke revealed at the end.

Rey’s Force vision was intriguing, and this plus the overall tone of the film was great enough for me to overlook the unoriginal plot and the Republic/Resistance dynamic. The First Order also seemed a lot smaller, as though they were a fringe group. I felt it was a fun, proper Star Warsy, but safe movie. I also thought it was a great platform on which to build a really good, interesting and exciting trilogy, particularly expanding on knowledge of the Force.

But after TLJ, TFA feels largely redundant to me. I hate Luke’s character assassination, I think the First Order are massively overpowered, which greatly diminishes the achievements of Luke and the Rebels in the OT. Then the way the most interesting parts of TFA - Rey’s history and her Force vision were partially ignored or given very underwhelming answers. TLJ has definitely taken the sheen off TFA for me.

 

TFA was a good SW movie imo. Good sequel to ROTJ? No.
TLJ? Not a good SW story at all imo.

 

I seems I am one of the few actually disliked TFA although it looks like other people who liked it had similar issues with it. I guess I just couldn’t look past the rehash aspects, imo out of place comedy (which TLJ goes further with), regression of the OT 3, etc.

I will say I did like the introduction to Rey but felt blah about her by the end of TFA.