ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

I guess that makes sense, it's not really a thing that needs to be explained with exposition or anything. I just would've liked to see the green one.

 

Me too; I dreamed of seeing Luke use the green one in some sort of confrontation with Kylo. I really did think it would happen and that they were keeping it from all trailers and promotional material so it would be a really awesome surprise. The blue turned out to be quite underwhelming to me.

 

This is not a stab at TFA, since this thread is about TLJ. Black Panther has two of a certain type of scene that I group under a general oeuvre of 'meeting your maker'. Or, what answer for yourself can you give to the ostensible author of your existence. The scene in ROTJ is hard to follow, hard to beat. TFA has what I think is an underwritten undershot undermotivating 'event' that transpires between Kylo Ren and Han Solo. Very mechanical. Telescoped to within an inch of its life. Uncompelling outside of the visual confirmation that yup, Harrison Ford has just received his exterior wish to not have to show up in a another film under the franchise title, and, his CGI body has now been lost in the white haze his CGI body fell into, and now we're moving onto the next scene of this thing. Rey's equivalent scene that she is her own maker is such rarefied high concept, and sort of bleeding edge for the mythological chassis Lucas Star Wars runs on, that I was thoroughly uninvolved, just a viewer of events. There was sufficiently subtlety, but not much crunch or depth in the moments where Kylo Ren 'faces off' against his mother I think he got away too quickly from his conflict because the plot needed that to happen. Again, I was barely involved.

BP has two scenes of this ourvre. The second is mechanically shot in such a way -just pure timing and pure camera work- -before you necessarily get to individual lines- that it got me involved involuntarily. This one scene by itself merits a second pair of tickets in a restaurant theatre / $40-50 to the theatre industrial complex. No one scene from TLJ elicits in me any interest to look it up in dollar theatres for a second viewing. Does an antonym exist for cathartic? TLJ is maximally uncathartic.

 

Luke vs Kylo never had any appeal to me as some dramatic fight so I scratched my head when that confrontation took place on Crait. Going into TLJ I had already seen a non jedi Rey stomp Kylo two days before so there was no real stakes for wanting to see Luke face off against him. If Rey could beat him then why would Luke even waste his time? What I wanted was Luke vs Snoke. An epic showdown of one master with the other and see how powerful Luke had become

 

OH I how I wished I hadn't clicked on that spoiler.

 

Another thing that just pissed me off again about TLJ. It's hard to put into words, but I think the combat in TLJ is ritualized and sanitized for cinematic presentation. I.e., it is not vital or shocking or organic. It is telescoped so far ahead that the mind/visual cortex retains mastery over the inputs far in advance of any visceral reaction that sets off release of adrenaline. I am not able to participate in any remote fantasy that Poe is evar, evar in any remote peril of any kind. Or Finn. Or Rey. There is too much control of the welfare of the character that I do not get to wonder or fear for them.

BP I got adrenaline surges. That means the mechanical nuts and bolts of the presentation got past my mind/visual cortex which 'knows' who is going to ultimately survive this film. TLJ combat was a bit more choreographed ballet for the visual check box of containing a certain line item of action scene. This is not objective, only personal. Some here might have bought the combat in TLJ on a visceral level.

 

I don't really look at lightsaber fights as some kind of anime where combatants are fighting to see how "powerful" they are against each other. Luke and Kylo made sense to be the showdown because of what they are to each other, not because it's a fair fight on paper.

 

No one's ever really gone, remember? Especially in a comic book

 

Tomato tomahto. I paid to see TLJ at an ipic theater to enjoy it in that environment for my 5th viewing. I felt it merited that. And I'm going to do the same for black panther and enjoy the experience without comparing apples to oranges, especially since the marvel cinematic universe has a plethora of source material written for them to translate to the screen.

But I do see how JJ operates and the mystery box routine gets old fast. I don't want that in episode IX

 

Well, so far in their movies,

Spoiler

Iron Monger, Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo, Killian, Red Skull, Alexander Pierce, Crossbones, Makleith the Accursed, The Executioner, Hela, Ronan the Accuser and Ego the Living Planet have all died and none of them have come back.

. I don't like that.

What does have to do with TLJ? Well, not much, although there isn't a new character from the DT that I would miss on either side.

 

I know.. good question. LOL. Some were comparing BP with elements of TLJ.

 

I think the point is BP does a lot of things that TLJ wanted to do well, and also that claims that people who dislike TLJ have some sort of alt-right agenda and are opposed to minority characters and a female hero is a canard.

 

Also, Kylo Ren WISHES he could be half as sympathetic as Erik Killmonger in Black Panther. Ren's little "this is why I turned evil!" moment with Luke made me roll my eyes, but I was nodding the entire time Killmonger was going over his goals and backstory. All I could think was "Your methods are so wrong, but your motivation is so right."

Really rare to see such a great villain from a Marvel film. For any genre, if you want a complex villain, and especially a sympathetic one, look to Killmonger to lead by example

 

Sad thing for me is, I actually DID dream of an epic encounter between him and Ren.....Not too long after TFA came out. And how was I rewarded for my patience? Being metaphorically spat in the face and having my outrage brushed off.

Most of the tech, for example. I wished half the stuff in BP made it into TFA, let alone TLJ....I dunno (nor do I care, anymore) who's behind the ST, but they really need to get their act together. Even the worst of the MCU has been kicking the ST's ass.

My EXACT thoughts. BP surprised me with how utterly kickass it was. CA: The Winter Soldier, I felt was only slightly better. THAT's how good it was for me. It was very refreshing going into a theatre, coming out so satisfied with the show and wishing to see it again, and again, and again. Given my feelings toward recent movies....

It's just brought me to this realization; I mean, let's face it, folks: This is the age of the MCU, not SW. It had its time, it got lucky with RO, but that left them cocky and filled with hubris, now apparently TLJ is the standard for people, and naysayers have their arms twisted till they spout its praises. It makes me sad.

 

Erik Killmonger is such a genuinely GREAT villain. He's easily one of the best, if not the best, in the MCU. He stomps the hell out of Kylo Ren, and it's fascinating how truly close they are in terms of what they're trying to do. I was honestly thinking "Wow, Erik is like what would happen if someone competent created Kylo Ren."

Spoilers for Black Panther will follow:

Spoiler

Erik Killmonger was absolutely Kylo Ren done right. He had the Royal lineage aspect down. His struggle with the family line made sense. His abandonment served as apt motivation, but the way it was presented didn't leave his family out as the sole villains. You could understand why T'Chaka did what he did, even if it wasn't agreeable. Something The Last Jedi failed miserably at.

Erik also managed to be an absolute badass. He's a TOUGH villain. He absolutely destroys T'Challa, and it's only through T'Challa being able to outsmart Erik, and using his friends/family, that he's able to defeat him. Erik is intimidating. Something Kylo Ren will never be.

His arc even offers the chance of redemption. T'Challa can save Erik, and Erik knows it. But Erik refuses, and delivers one of the greatest final lines from a villain ever, to be honest. There's no wishy-washy "I want to do the right thing but can't" nonsense from Erik. It's so refreshing, which is weird to say.

And more than anything, Erik Killmonger has motivation, and a goal. The audience KNOWS why Killmonger is doing what he's doing. They understand him, and they understand what he's doing. There is no ambiguity that's left up to comics 99.9% of the audience will never read. They took the time to be an actual film and tell the story completely.

Two films into the Sequel Trilogy, and I have no idea what Kylo Ren wants to do, or why. He says he wants to burn it all down and do something new. He wants to finish what Vader started. What is that? Because so far, it's just a knock off of the empire. And the empire boiled down to Palpatine wanting total power. Is that it? Is that all "Mr. Complex and Damaged" has to offer? Power? Why not just come out and say it then? Erik Killmonger wants power. He has a damn good reason for it too. Why does Kylo Ren want power? What's he want to do with it? Why does he believe it's the right thing to do?

 

But..we've already seen TLJ done better by Daniel Baxter:



(there are over 24,500 comments with an overwhelming consent: Better than the actual movie...)

 

LOL Even if it was supposed to be comical, Ackbar's speech at the end of the video made me feel a genuine sense of relief.

 

Yeah same for me. Breathe gave me shivers up until Rey started to speak about the light and dark and then the rest did feel drab.

Watching the movie though it was seeing Poe's x-wing attack and the retrofitted "Nitro" effect and insane zig zag flight that put me off more than anything. The comedy hit with a thud and then I realised the whole space battle was a parody. Everything else when further downhill from there. Luke and R2 is maybe the only moment I liked in the whole film.

But wow. RO nailed what TLJ could not seem to replicate with a space battle didn't it?

 

I wanted both and thought we would get both.

Look, Rey's character has been butchered, but Kylo was badly injured during that fight, and he also was intentionally not trying to kill her, so I can see how she beat him there. But he hates Luke, and I at least expected Luke to want to confront him in some way (which he did, but not with the green). I agree about Luke/Snoke. That would've been epic.

 

Wow. I'll admit I was wary about watching that, but I'll admit the part with Rey and Luke and the walkers; THAT would've been better to see in the film.

 

Pretty much anything else would have been better than what we actually got.
We have a whole original trilogy that shows Luke heading into the fight, not away from it, while also scolding those who try to walk away from it, and now we're supposed to believe he doesn't give a damn about anything? I expected he may have needed a little convincing, but then once he realized how dire things were, he would snap out of it. And I mean actually be there and handle business, not just be a projection.
If you haven't seen that fan made song on Youtube where it's Luke singing "you're welcome" from Moana, check it out. That's how his meeting with Rey should have happened.

 

There was a great opportunity to feature a mythological allusion to David (Luke) and Goliath (Walkers) and something spectacular Luke could really be remembered for...

 

Hold for Hux. Same thing happened for me with TFA's "who talks first", and the TLJ bit was even more grating. Sure, SW has a history of comedic moments, but for me there's a line between that and the type of obnoxious jokiness that affects my overall ability to take the film seriously. Also I have to add Finn falling out of the bed followed by the leaky suit gag. I had high hopes TLJ would move Finn away from being such a bumbling sidekick, and in that respect they couldn't have had a worse intro for Finn (although I'm sure Abrams' is working on that as we speak).

 

Yes - the prank call was when the warning signs went off for me. The who talks first in TFA I took as false bravado in the face of fear. The prank call was nothing more than a Simpson's episode.

And as someone else said in the past page - the ONLY moment of TLJ that felt right was Luke and R2 scene.