ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Saltier Than Crait OMG that name is hilarious. I love it.

 

That would be fine as long as Kylo were successful for the sake of good or for evil... as it stands he is neither. As a good guy he's already unlikable, as a bad guy he's really unlikable, and more importantly, not frightening at all.

 

I think if anyone was going to question Rey's power and proficiency, then Rian's lazy 'get-out-of-gaol' card was the ancient books that Rey stole from the tree. She spent five minutes swatting up on their contents between scenes.

There... now she can just read 'The Force for Dummies' and she'll be a Jedi Master in no time. Of course, that will mean that she'll be ūber powerful by IX, with the ability to crack planets in half with her mind, but absolutely nothing more will be mentioned of the books or how she learned to hold back supernovae using the Force, because she doesn't need to be seen earning it.

This is the new canon. It is known.

 

Since this thread isn't a safe space for venting about other fans, I assume I'm allowed to respond to comments like this.

I just wanted to say I've seen only a few people suggest anything like you describe. I consider them an extreme minority that doesn't represent everyone that supports redemption.

 

Unfortunately wrong. Nowadays they will get praised for this and even get an Oscar .

 

Watching this video really bums me out that we missed getting to see the EU Grandmaster Luke as the great mentor/teacher of this generation. Every generation needs their wise mentors who serve as the spirit guides of the young to train them on the lessons that will help them grow. Those like us that that are children of the 80s still gleam wisdom from the Yodas, Miyag's of the cinematic world. I'm sure if Rian would have done KK he would have had Daniel Son learn Karate on his own then kick Miyagi to the ground, beat him up in the dirt and gloat over him to show him how he's just an old misguided creeton.

 

No. This isn't a valid excuse to disrupt the tone of the thread. If you feel that someone in here is breaking the thread rules, report the post and the Mods will deal with it. Don't respond to that person in here.

@unicorn - As has been repeatedly stated, discussion of other fans, or groups of fans is not allowed in this thread. Consider this a final warning. A ban will follow if you do this again.

 

What was the name of that Reddit thread again?

It's sounding like they're not even waiting to shut down this thread even though it's supposed to be a safe place to discuss how badly they messed up the Star Wars franchise given you can be blocked for just pointing out the obvious yet be called trolling when you're not outside of this thread.

Update: Found it!

 

So according to multiple posters here who have read the book, there is no suggestion of Ben being mistreated by his family- yet, according to others, including some actual journalists, it's a harrowing study of child abuse and parental neglect. What is with that?

 

Still reading that book, still doesn't explain anything other than TLJ apparently making even less sense!

Hope Solo demonstrates how good a Star Wars movie can be and not be used as an excuse to cover the mess that is episode 8!

 

It's almost as bad as the Big Sean song with that name.

 

I am guessing it's a couple of things. Either the journalist didn't actually read the whole book themselves and just took the snippet that's been posted all around the internet in order to write the article OR a completely different view on what makes a neglectful parent.

 

Does....does anyone think that 1. They’d put the reason for Ben’s fall in a book and not a movie and/or LFL is deliberately portraying Han and Leia as bad/neglectful/incompetant parents?

That’s so absurd I’m not sure such claims warrant a response, really...

 

At least the song can be enjoyed ironically.

I just don't see how anyone could get that from the story anyway. Its pretty much the opposite of whats shown.

 

To first answer someone else, these are NOT "actual journalists" - they're writers on a website for free or to keep their Disney access or swag. So they'll write whatever is handed to them in a press release or will drive eyeballs to the site.

I have ZERO trouble believing LFL wants us to see Han and Leia as terrible parents to prop up their money boy Kylo - or else they wouldn't have made Han and Leia Kylo's parents, and let JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson and Adam Driver gas on about how poor troubled "adolescent" Kylo got to be the way he is and his issues of abandonment and JJ flat out saying Han was always running and Leia was too busy and they couldn't handle Kylo and Driver saying the same crap. They wouldn't have let a whole movie turn on Luke trying to kill him so that AGAIN he looks like poor troubled boy - feel sorry for his puppy dog eyes while he trains all of the might of the First Order on his mother and uncle - oh, they didn't love him enough. Then I read fans on Twitter going on about how awful it will be if Kylo doesn't get saved in 9 - children will cry! He's mentally troubled so you can't blame him. Now I'm even reading that he didn't kill Luke's students.

The whole ST is being warped around Kylo. Luke and Han are dead because of him - and I read fans saying that what happened to them is the best part of the ST. Leia is turned into an idiot because of him. They all three had their happy ending, their character growth, and all the OT victories torn down because of him. They told Harrison Ford he was there to support Adam Drive - top ten box office of all time there playing one of the most famous heroes of all time, there to support the 5th lead from an HBO show with less than a million viewers playing emo goth boy. I read articles online about how Kylo is an anti hero - and I had to go look up to confirm that anti hero still means someone without typical hero traits, not mass murdering villain. I read articles about how hot Reylo is - in Vanity Fair. The NPR critic calling him "Space Boyfriend."

I have no earthly idea why anyone thought this was a good idea but it's what's happening. It's being reinforced in the media and if you aren't on the train, you're shouted down and mocked.

 

My theory for why these phony click-bait journalists would misrepresent the book is for Reylo fan clicks. We have to remember that in the modern internet age, people choose the news they read based on what they want to hear. Everyone knows there is a very active and vocal online Reylo community. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy by Disney, but it is a worrying example of the fake news phenomenon and how vigilant people have to be on the internet but haven’t yet learned to be.

 

And it doesn't have 40 years of fan investment going for it.

 

Droids in Star Wars are used as policemen, babysitters, bartenders, teachers, co-pilots, protocol professionals, doctors, nurses, etc. So you can entrust your life to a droid, be protected from crime by a droid, give birth with the help of droid nurses, have a droid as your loyal friend, be taught by a droid… but if a parent uses a droid to take care of their child for a little bit that is suddenly neglect?
Lol.

Also, how many times were characters’ lives saved by droids like C-3PO and R2-D2? Self-pitying Ben Solo wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for droids being the most trustful and resourceful friends despite being treated in universe like property.

You know what this is? It’s droid discrimination. It’s seeing them as lesser beings than humans while not understanding that unfair droid discrimination is actually a plot point in the saga created by George Lucas ever since he based ANH on Kurosawa’s The Hidden Fortress and decided those representing the discriminated lower class in his universe would be human-like droids.

Good for Leia and Han that they don’t see droids as lesser beings. And poor droid that he got hacked. It’s still no excuse for privileged, spoiled Ben Solo to turn to the darkside.

 

I assume you missed the part where T'challa offered to save him but Killmonger refused the offer.

But by all means keep living in your dream world where a movie written and directed by black people was racist against black people.

 

That click bait screen rant guy definitely didn't read the book because he says Han has barely been home since Ben was born travelling constantly when the book specifically says this is the first time Han has had to leave since Ben was born 2 years ago and the whole point of the book is how hard it is for Han to not be with Ben for even a few days.

That Bryan Young guy who reviewed the book seems to have a completely unrealistic view of parent's expectations, or at least the parents of Ben if he thinks Han and Leia are neglectful by not spending every single second of every day with Ben when in 95% of the scenes Ben is shown he’s either with Han or Leia or both. According to him I guess parents are never allowed to leave the house for the rest of their lives once a kid is born?

It is interesting how almost 100% of the click bait article have been pro Kylo apologism and pro Reylo. Even so called "feminist" sites like the Mary Sue and Vanity Fair who were all over the #MeToo movement and have called out white male privilege numerous times before have been all over Reylo and how sexy it is and how victimized poor Kylo is. Almost makes me wonder if there's a Disney conspiracy going on in the universal praise of Mary Sue. Was there even one article out in a mainstream media out that Reylo is toxic and abusive?

Yeah, I'm going to quote from a Tumblr post that said it much better than me in response to the idea that Han and Leia were neglectful by leaving Ben with a droid on occasion:

Spoiler for Last Shot

Spoiler

In the series Star Wars, robots, referred to as droids, are a part of everyday life in this galaxy far far away. They serve as assistants, waiters, drivers, laborers, nannies, mechanics, doctors, translators, educators, security, chefs, soldiers, etc. They are engrained within this culture and are probably more trustworthy than a random sentient being hired off the street since they can be programmed and tailored to fit the needs of their owners.

There is nothing wrong or abnormal with having a droid babysitter. It’s probably the norm in this society. In fact, Leia had a droid assigned specifically to her care as a child and teenager named TooVee (read Leia, Princess of Alderaan). Jyn Erso was also babysat and cared for in general by a droid while she lived with her parents before they went on the run (read Catalyst). That scene you’re referring to with Ben being given a bath by his droid and running out in the middle of it to get to his uncle Lando, who he loves and who adores him? Yeah, that’s a scene that can parallel a memory of Leia doing the exact same thing at his age while TooVee was trying to bathe her. Ben wasn’t being bathed by the droid because Leia was working while at home. He was being bathed by the droid because that is the droid’s job. Assigning a task to a droid does not make someone a bad parent. For example, putting a baby in a mechanical swing like this instead of rocking them or holding them constantly doesn’t make someone a bad parent in our world. It’s the same principle.

The idea that two-year-olds cannot possibly ever be without their parents is ridiculous. I can’t begin to understand where that logic would come from. If a parent left their two year old completely alone with no one to care for them, then yes, that would be a problem. But many parents have to work. Putting their children in the care of a babysitter or daycare doesn’t make them a bad parent. It makes them a parent who is working hard to provide for their child.

The use of droids are not an attempt to “replace human warmth, skin contact, affection and love”. They are performing a task when they take care of children. It is a job. For Ben the “human warmth, skin contact, affection and love” come from his parents and loving uncles. Han’s first scene is him waking up with Ben who he had been watching cartoons with. In that same scene, Ben falls back to sleep in Han’s arms leaning his head on Han’s shoulder. Leia is also shown being extremely affectionate and hands-on with him. They both adore him and it’s mentioned that he sleeps between them (explaining why they only have one kid). Almost every single time Ben is shown, he is with at least one of his parents.

Oh and that moment when the droid was temporarily brainwashed to kill people? Yeah, that was a brief few seconds that Ben didn’t even notice. The whole plot is about a crazy person who wants to kill most people in the galaxy and have those who remain serve droids who he considers to be superior to people. For a few seconds, he is able to hack into a huge chunk of droids across the galaxy with the intention of getting them to kill the people they are with. This lasts a few seconds before Lando destroys that machine that made the hack possible and also killing the man responsible. In order to build suspense for the story, a moment was put in from the perspective of Ben’s babysitter droid. The toddler doesn’t even notice that there is any danger. He is crying because his babysitter won’t allow him to play with anything dangerous. The next time he is seen, Leia is holding him and he’s happily playing with her hair.

So, no, I do not see why K/lo would feel that he was ignored. In Bloodline, Leia has memories of him playing as a child and having friends. She has positive memories of him growing up in the TLJ novel. In that same book, K/lo remembers his parents being concerned with his violence, showing that they cared about getting him the help he needed and were far from ignoring him. There is no evidence that he was neglected at all within canon.

If Han and Leia are guilty of anything, it’s of giving him far too much. He was adored, coddled, spoiled, and pampered. In the last Aftermath novel, he is described as having all the best that money can buy. He grew up as one of the absolute most privileged beings in the galaxy. Like the current villains in the real world, which he is meant to reflect, K/lo is an entitled, privileged ******* who feels that he deserves even more priveledges. That’s it. That’s his villain backstory: 30-year-old spoiled brat who had it all feels that he deserves even more and commits mass murder to get it. There is no sob story for him no matter how much people want one.

 

Well, it should be absurd to say that Han and LeIa are neglectful, bad parents.. However, after the way that Luke suffered complete character assassination under the filmmakers hired by LFL and Disney, I fear that it is very well possible. Luke’s character was turned into a complete failure and was humiliated and ruined in order to try to make Kylo look sympathetic. So, I can see them doing the same thing to Han and Leia in order to make their “Chosen One” character look better. Put the blame on everyone else so Kylo can be redeemed.

If they really wanted a good skywalker / solo character, then they shouldn’t have copied the story told in earlier films and had the solo son become a Darth Vader wannabe. They didn’t need to make Han and leia’s Son into a villain. He could have been an heroic character instead. Or, there could have been more than one skywalker child. They made this decision, and now they are sacrificing the OT characters and their legacies to prop up this character that I absolutely do not care about at all. And if they try to redeem him and have him live a happy life with wife, kids, and Jedi students, what a horrible message that is sending. It would be that it doesn’t matter how terrible you are and how many people you kill and crimes you commit, as long as you are a skywalker and are at least somewhat good-looking, everything will be fine for you in the end. You will get your happy ending.

YUCK!!!!!!!!!!

I’m sorry, but this isn’t Star Wars.

 

They're trying to paint Ben as a kid who didn't have a choice...the way Luke spoke of him in TLJ, he should have been like a god-like child, or King Arthur, he was seemingly destined for other things. But he wasn't these things, was he... you WOULD think Kylo would play out as the noble, evil guy, or the good anti-hero...maybe he didn't like his fate, but he was focused on being who he was. Instead in this sense, he isn't like Han or Leia (Or Luke) or even a Skywalker at all...he's very distant, whiny, immature (to the audience's annoyance) and ... disjointed in a way that isn't even understandable? The sloppy way he was characterized in TLJ just had no form, and it isn't coming together. When he fought Holo-Luke on Crait, to me he was still the same old (and at that point, tired) Kylo. Killing Snoke did not make him grow, it just showed that Snoke was somehow incompetent. He's still an emo kid that knows a few parlor tricks and has a goofy lightsaber. There was no maturity because no time passed between TFA and TLJ so that we could see progress. As it has been traditional to let a few years go by between films, we see no progress.

So the answer may in the long run from the writers become, "Well, yeah, that's it...we didn't want him too much like Vader."

Well why on EARTH would he be written like he WAS in TLJ, though? That's not better. Blecch.

 

I think that's one of my biggest complaints about Kylo - other than his existence and what it's done to the narrative. People keep telling me I should want his redemption because he's Han and Leia's kid - yet I don't see one indication that he's in any way their child. Okay, he's allegedly a good pilot. But he's not funny, he's not interesting, he looks nothing like them - to me, he's like Rey - a cipher. Trying to write dialogue for either of them is like beating your head against a wall - there's no there there. There's no traits to hang onto, they can say anything the screenwriter wants because there's no voice to either of them. Kylo in particular is a blank, as someone said above.

I'm certainly tired of the whole "if you love Luke, Han and Leia, then you want to hashtag Save Ben Solo because they wanted it " crap. He murdered Han and thanked him for dying, he would have killed Luke if Luke had been there but in the end killed him, then tried to kill Leia - and I'm to believe that he will magically become good and ride off into the sunset as the hero because of Rey or reasons or something? Already I'm seeing people saying he'll be a benevolent leader - on what damn evidence? He killed his father for nothing! He tortured and murdered but he'll get full power and...something.

I honestly hate every moment of the ST but the moments of what they've done to the OT3 are the worst.

 

Poe Dameron #26:

Poe: Leia was so sure her brother would just solve everything. Boom, that'd be it

Rey: One man with a laser sword

 

Profound.