ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

And in turn Rian has set JJ up for disaster, hope they cut him a big check for 9.

Is it weird I find your hatred for Kylo endearing?

 

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/201...edi-snoke-and-possible-episode-ix-return.html

 

And that was really my original point...

I don't believe even for a second that IX is going to be a fantastic film; it certainly won't be all that original; but I have to hope at least for a few things that may make it actually watchable.

I don't want to give up on IX just yet... even if I can't exactly be optimistic about the unholy mess we currently have.

 

Why not both?

 

Oddly enough this makes more sense to me than an abusive childhood, as there are plenty of real life examples of doting parents creating monsters. Some of the scariest people I've ever met in my line of work were the product of privilege and entitlement.

It still doesn't make Han and Leia look good however... as then they would be seen as incompetent in teaching their little brat life lessons. I really don't see how anything we learn about Kylo in IX is going to rescue this awful character at this stage, or more importantly give Han and Leia any kind of positive legacy whatsoever.

 

Kylo has had 2 chances at redemption; Han in TFA, and Rey in TLJ. And possibly even, a third, if we want to count Luke on Crait, who even though he doesn't believe he can save him, he's still goes out there to apologize to him. Who knows if Leia also tried at some point before the trilogy began. And even Snoke, who doesn't offer him redemption, still though tests his determination to his dark side. This guy is being given so many opportunities, so many tests, so many chances to do the right thing. At the very least, a character in each movie has offered Kylo the chance to redeem himself and Kylo has refused. It's quite interesting, or odd, that each person essentially sympathizes with Kylo, tells him that's it's not all his fault, like the poor baby that he is, and tells him he can return with them. Rey thinks she shares a common history with him, or he's had a bad deal, or can be changed because he's a conflicted and offers him a way out. Han is essentially doing the same without saying as much and insist he can still come home.

Now there's no inherent problem with having the movie's villain be a product or a symbol of privilege and entitlement. The problem arises in that the movie - or the moviemakers - really seem to want us to root for Kylo to change, or want us to inherently sympathize with him, even without him doing anything to deserve it. It's asking all of us to buy into his privilege, giving him a pass that he hasn't earned, instead of holding Kylo to account for his own wrong-doings. I really hope the next movie holds him accountable and doesn't give him a free pass.

 

No there isn't, in fact in most circumstances it works just fine.... but not if his parents are Han and Leia. If that is the main reason they go with for him being what he is, then it makes them look like ****** parents regardless...

I really don't know now how they can make this character even remotely sympathetic without them dragging Han and Leia further into the mire with him. It's going to take a monumental twist in IX to rescue this **** shower.

 

I know we still have time before this thread is shutdown but I really love it. I hope we can find another place to congregate to continue our thought guys whether Reddit’s saltierthancrait or somewhere else. I have come to really appreciate the POV of this thread’s posters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Again, we differ quite a bit in our thinking on this. I have no doubt that IX will be watchable. But is that good enough? Is it worth it? For me it isn't. TFA is very much watchable if you aren't too invested in the characters and don't pay much attention to detail. Unfortunately for me, I am and I do, and I want my SW movies to be more than just watchable. TLJ was a complete bridge burner. Earlier I used the analogy "I've burned your house down, but I can get you some cookies". They can give me the best cookies in the world, but it won't replace my house.

 

Nope, I actually think we're on the same song sheet, even if we may differ in the degree to which we do or do not invest in something here. A film being watchable doesn't mean I think that the sequels are rescuable, and I never stated that I think this is good enough. TLJ has ruined everything in my book. Believe you me, I will not be happy with a watchable film- I will be happy with a great film, but we are not going to get a great film; that's a given.

I will hope for more harmony amongst those of us who hate TLJ or the sequels in general in this thread's final days... if there's any possibility of getting a successor thread for moaning about SW in general, which apparently may still happen.

 

So I watched TLJ again (I always give a SW movie the benefit of the doubt) because you can watch it in a different context on repeat viewings. Now that I have seen it a few times and have let it sink in, I was able to watch it with the 1-9 story in mind. I will say this, it works as a standalone movie, but not as a Saga movie (if that makes any sense). When you watch it with the big picture in mind, you can't help but notice the repeat themes of 1-6 and you wonder what the point is to all of this? If you just sit down and watch it as a movie (not thinking of the Saga), it is entertaining and a pretty good movie. The problem is that it's called Episode 8, so it is supposed to be watched in a Saga context and I just can't escape any other way to look at it. Everytime they talk about the Resistance(Rebellion) will rise again, I keep thinking that we have been down this road before? Everytime I hear Rey trying to turn Kylo Ren back to the light, I keep thinking that we have been down this road before? When Kylo Ren takes over as Supreme Chancellor and talks to Rey about ruling the galaxy and ending this destructive conflict, I keep thinking we have been down this road before? In hindsight, maybe there was nothing that really could have tied 7-9 to 1-6 without it being repetitive as some stories are meant to end and that is it. Yes, you can make a case that the conflict in the galaxy went on just like the wars go on after WW1, WW2, The Cold War, etc. But SW has always been a personal story, and the more and more I watch the ST, I can't help but think that Vader redemption angle at the end of ROTJ was a pretty good ending.

 

Perusing Saltier than Crate I feel less bummed that this thread is closing, although I do still prefer it here. I haven’t seen Spaceballs since I was a kid, so I don’t remember it beyond the occasional meme I’ve seen here and there, although I know enough to know it’s Hot Shots style humor. Thanks to Saltier, I have learned that the parking violation plot point actually originated in, yup, Spaceballs. I think it’s the little things that amuse me

 

I really like a lot of the elements of TLJ that are oft-cited as negatives. Everything on Ahch-to is gold, including the sea cow. I adored Luke’s story, including the Rashomon-style flashbacks. I liked the way Snoke was dispatched. The humor was generally excellent. The Rey and Kylo chat sessions work. Etc.

The thing I didn’t like about it was it’s heavy-handed messaging. “Protect what you love, not what you hate.” The greed stuff on Canto Bight. The “she was less interested in being seen as a hero than in doing what’s right.” Why did it all have to be so telegraphed? To me, those themes were strongly implicit, and would have been much stronger without having characters lay them out like thesis statements. These “and the moral of the story IS...” signposts really brought the script down for me, with the lowest points being in Crait, which I felt was a mess.

However, I still think it was a good saga film (better than TFA). Just getting a little tired of the “tell us how to interpret this” child formula.

 

Speaking as me, not as a mod, I see no reason much of the thoughtful critique in here can't move to another thread. Discussion of what did and didn't work, and why, is the heart of critique. Out and out "it sucks" is not critique and does not lead to discussion.

 

I think because of the nature of this thread, it has encouraged a lot of offloading which sometimes translates as outright hatred, either for TLJ or for where the franchise is heading. To some extent at least, I think it was always going to be an echo chamber; but I see that as a good thing.... to a degree.

This thread continues to surprise me even now with the quality of discourse. It openly tolerates some extreme opinions on SW, but at the same time allows for, as you say, some really good critique. It has also proven to be a really good valve for dealing with the frustration, anger and disillusionment many feel right now. This is not an insignificant proportion of the fandom either... and contrary to some headlines, is not composed mostly of alt-right misogynists, racists and the like. Most of us are ordinary fans and collectively I think we need an outlet... somewhere.

I may be less inclined than some to find the positives in what we currently have, but that doesn't mean that we can't have those debates; it all adds to the mix and inevitably throws up some thought-provoking debate.

Long may it continue... Somehow.

 

I’m late to the party. What’s this talk about this thread closing?

 

I believe Lucas wanted to explore the question of how do you rebuild a democracy. I think going in that direction would have avoided the redundancy of the tyranny vs rebellion angle.

 

I guess that depends on the thread, the Rey thread for instance is down right toxic. I had a guy argue with me on my true intentions with a post I made, like it was a conspiracy or something.

 

Wasn't that because the new Solo is about to be released and they wanted to port this over to a sanctuary thread on that movie instead?!
Will they archive this discussion thread or are they literally removing it so no one can go back and learn for the past given how TLJ was about burning it down without learning from it first?
No it will probably be closed instead!

 

I'll say this: The more time I spend in this thread, the less I'm inclined to give them another chance. And that likelyhood was microscopic to begin with.

 

The mods have determined that on May 25th the Sanctuary will be expunged from the boards.

Because...um..reasons?

 

Much of the discourse is surprisingly elevated. That's one key reason why the thread is so popular.

 

I would add that moral messages being telegraphed is really not the way Star Wars movies typically work.

Usually when it comes to moral philosophies and right/wrong, it is presented as personal POVs from the character but not as unchallenged statements, and then it’s up to the viewer to take their own interpretations, agree/disagree with the characters, as sometimes even characters who seem to be wise – like Yoda, Obi-Wan – are not always right. It is what allowed tons of discussions in the fandom that are still ongoing, for instance, the Jedi order and their attachments policy (were they right or wrong?), what exactly the Chosen One/Balance prophecy referred to (was Mace Windu right?), was the Republic the rightful government, etc. None of these topics were presented as absolutist statements as you had characters in PT and OT challenging these perceptions and philosophies either via argumentation or via actions. Nothing was telegraphed as a "the right way" or "moral of the story" - you just guessed it or theorized on your own as the story evolved and you watched how things turned out.

But what truly annoyed me was not just that the moral, right/wrong imperatives were telegraphed, it was also the way they were worded and delivered. In Canto Bight specifically, when Rose states that the only way to get this rich is by selling weapons and Finn agrees – there is no counterargument to that and it only serves to reduce the galaxy into a simplistic stereotype, instead of expanding the worldbuilding via the many layers it has. Rich people in SW have come in different shapes and forms in the past (both Queen Amidala and Lando Calrissian were rich, I would argue that Mon Mothma was also a wealthy individual, as well as the Organas, and of course there is also Palpatine – richness is not a synonym of bad, but TLJ sure makes it look that way).

The Balance thing is also telegraphed - in which it is stated that the Force creates now lightsiders to counterbalance darksiders like a math equation, which was never the case before (at least not explicitly, although that was one of the fandom theories), and there is never a character that challenges this line of thought or an action that casts doubt in it (for instance in the PT, Anakin still turned to the darkside, and some Jedi wondered if they were wrong about the prophecy). There is hardly room there for alternative interpretations due to this insistent telegraphing of almost every single message and presenting them as unchallenged truths.

There are other examples in the movie where a statement is presented almost as an absolute fact with little to no counterargument offered. Like, for instance, Luke’s opinions on the Jedi were wrong and the Jedi created darksiders and this and that. Okay, that is a pov, but where is the other side of that argument? Even when Rey tries challenge his pov, she is summarily proven wrong later. There is a certain lack of nuance in the way these messages are delivered that ultimately hurts the script for me, as, despite attempting to be more philosophical than previous SW movies, it somehow manages to offer less room to navigate between different philosophies or allow to take different conclusions when all we’re getting is one-sided absolutist statements thrown at our faces.

 

While I agree with your general point about these “categorical imperative” statements, and the simplification of the GFFA that TLJ offers (its mostly a populist simplification which given today’s rise of populism and hardcore nationalism, I find unappealing), for me the problem is more about how sledgehammer unsubtle it all is, than the “from a certain point of view” ethic. I do actually believe that there are universal ethical principles worth adhering to, and do not agree with full-on ethical relativism. I just don’t want or need characters pausing and dramatically spouting off moral lessons that were already pretty clear to begin with. That’s been the Rebels style, which is fine for a cartoon aimed almost exclusively at children. But as an all ages film, I thought TLJ sometimes tried way too hard to make sure the kids understood the lesson. Which served only to diminish the impact of the lesson, and the believability of the world. For me.

In short, my issues with TLJ are very different from the common issues espoused in the fandom. I expected something a lot more thematically and visually subtle from RJ, given his past work. And so I was surprised to see something that felt more like Peter Jackson’s lesser works sometimes, than RJ at his best (Brick and Looper, IMO).

 

Lucas, having studied anthropology, looked at human behavior from a historical perspective. He wanted to ask the question of why people behave the way they do. Why do some choose the course of good and others the choice of bad? Those questions come in layers, some on an individual level and others on a sociopolitical level. We see characters’ actions and the consequences that occur. Internal monologues aren’t necessary. I don’t need Vader to stand there while the emperor is killing his son and start saying, “I’m conflicted. I feel trapped by the evil deeds I have done before, and yet I care for my son. What to do? What to do?” The audience gets to see people’s actions and decide what stance they want to take. Humanity is doomed to repeat itself if it can’t even remember its past triumphs and failures. It is this historical perspective that is not happening now, but rather a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. Remember the past. Save it if you have to...