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The scrutiny current lore is held compared to previous lore.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BaronNoir, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. BaronNoir

    BaronNoir Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2001
    I will use for this purpose a TLJ/ROTJ comparison.

    A quite valid criticism of TLJ is the Canto-Bligh sequence is useless compared to the plot (true). But there is a very direct comparison possible with another utterly pointless sequence, the first act of ROTJ, which is being given a free pass

    (I will be quite uncharitable here and say it loud, I suspect heavily that there are one, or rather two, reasons why this sequence is held in high regards).

    If you use the same hypercriticism that is used against Disney lore, the sequence does not hold very well. For instance...

    1) The entire sequence make extremely odd the mere presence of Han on Tatooine in ANH. If Jabba have his palace on Tatooine, WHY Han is an incredibly backwater spaceport on this planet

    2) On the eve of a decisive operation, the lone Jedi of the Rebel Alliance and the top politician of the Rebel Alliance moonlights in a personal mission to save a friend (which is deserting, but it's called on in TLJ)

    3)Like all SW vilains, Jabba is essentially mentally crippled, but he is supposedly a crime lord. Surely someone should have thought ''what if Jabba acts like an half rational being and sells Luke and Leia to Palpatine ?'' for metric cubes of credits, which are quite more valuable than a meal for a rancor and a sexual slave ? What if Vader, who know damn well where is Jabba's Palace and than Han Solo is taken there, anticipates that Luke will rescue his friend ? That point was so obvious that Palpatine actually infiltrated Mara Jade in Jabba's palace to kill Luke.

    4)Even by SW standards, the plan is criminally inept, as it involves splitting a six person rescue team (Leia, Luke, Lando, Chewbacca, C3P0, D2-R2) in FIVE different groups. Lando is infiltrated months ahead. Then the droids. Then Chewbassa. Then Leia. Then Luke. (People mocks the Marvel universe propensity to use the ''let's get captured by the ennemy''-Luke plan involve four separate ''captured by the ennemy'' (the droids, Chewbacca, Leia, him) At least two of those capture are part of the plan, and I'm not sure for the two last of them.

    5)The sequence breaks the already crummy hold that SW have over biology, with a hermaphrodite slug apparently sexually attracted to female Humans (I think at least one source indicated that at least, Twi'leks were attractive because of their lekkus, which they can move in an uh, ''interesting'' way for an Hutt and that yes, Jabba was a pervert even for Hutts. But still) . And the Sarlacc.

    6) We are supposed to believe that in a galaxy with tons of political intrigue and ruthless politics, no one ever thought to use ''the Chancellor performed as a stripper in front of a crimelord'' (while apparently the events of Jabba's Palace are very well known) In a American based franchise were real life people have their reputation ruined by ''I had extramarital consensual sex with an intern''
     
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  2. Yunzabit

    Yunzabit Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 5, 2015
    Luke's plan was purely improvised. He wasn't experienced and Vader doesn't care about tracking him down. He knows Luke will come to him and doesn't need to do anything. ROTJ is a classic. It may be a little shaky as you've described but its a movie.
     
  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    To put it this way, the old canon was powered a LOT by books, comic books, games etc. Every time a contradiction appeared in the films, a dozen books were already on it to work it out. Take Palpatine's "Republic, which has stood for a thousand years" compared with Kenobi's "over a thousand generations". The EU was immediately on the game with a well described and written Ruusan reformation, even tying in the older unconnected Dark Forces 2 game.

    We have much less new EU. We know nothing about Luke's temple, who Snoke is, etc. When contradictions appear in a film, we are now reliant on Story Group's twitter. For example, seeing Starkiller's beams on Takodana. We relied on Pablo's twitter account to explain this discrepancy. Nowhere does this appear in an official source. Even wookieepedia still links to Pablo's account.

    People are harsher on new canon because there is less new EU to make fixes.
     
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  4. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    None of which applied to the opening example of Return of the Jedi, since the "EU" (at least as used that way) wouldn't happen for another decade.
     
  5. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    We did have the Marvel comics though. People in the letters section were already talking about the contradiction between Luke being unable to swim in the old Marvels, vs swimming in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

    We already had takes on the Ord Mantell incident in those days.

    Marvel provided an explanation (Crimson Jack) of why Han had no money to pay Jabba despite being awarded in ANH, something the movies themselves never addressed.
    I don't think Jabba cared about money any more. He just wanted Han and his friends to suffer. Jabba is centuries old and isn't concerned about what the Empire will do to him. He also might not have known that Vader wanted Luke alive, and thought he would get rewarded by the Empire for killing Luke and the gang.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  6. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    Leaving aside the fact that you've again not engaged with the original example, is your argument really that multiple contradictory explanations are better (and, per the original topic, less worthy of scrutiny) than leaving the audience to imagine it?
     
  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I was addressing the title of the topic itself. I made an edit that then quoted the OP's post, which it seems you did not read before you made your accusation.

    Official explanations are better than no explanations or haphazard explanations given on twitter. Hosnian Prime's destruction being visible from Takodana is a good example. No one who didn't read Pablo's twitter would know how to explain it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  8. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    If you need it, it's in the novelization.
     
  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Oh ok, thanks. I'll go look it up. I do wonder how "canon" the novelization is since Rey and Poe meet there I heard, then meet again in 8, but it's better than nothing.

    Per the original post, I do think the Sith were waiting out to see if Luke could handle Jabba. If he failed, he's not worthy of joining them. If he succeeded, it reconfirmed him as excellent Sith recruitment material.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  10. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    Still, I think the OP is more about the hypercriticism in general, the "plot holes" that aren't, the CinemaSins variety of "criticism". Maybe you're right in that the EU is what encouraged Star Wars fandom to be like this; if so, I would rather it never existed, cuz omg...
     
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  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I don't think the EU did anything, it's the sheer popularity of the original work. Tolkien's writings mention how he struggled to answer all the questions people had about the makeup of Gondor, the 5 wizards, the religious significance of the Valar, etc. And there was no Lord of the Rings EU then. Part of the reason Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion in his lifetime, I think, was because he knew it would be hyperanalyzed to the last letter to check for contradictions against Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit.

    The forward by Chris Tolkien in the Silmarillion even outright warns that a complete consistency can't be found between it and LOTR unless at much needless cost. And this was AFTER Chris himself edited the work thoroughly so that it would fall in line with LOTR. The Fall of Gondolin text, Tolkien's first written Middle Earth prose, was actually left out of the Silmarillion to preserve consistency with LOTR (such as Legolas and Glorfindel being there--they retconned Glorfindel to have resurrected a la Gandalf to be the same one in LOTR. Legolas was someone with another name.)

    Another reason Tolkien couldn't finish was that he had the Valar turn the world from flat into round, which he eventually realized would fall prey to real science critics, the way we're criticizing the Hosnian beams being seen on Takodana now: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    I think if you were to head over to the film forums you would find decades of hugely detailed criticism existing entirely independently of any tie-in content.

    People keep bringing up the argument that ANH fans utterly slagged ESB - I'm a bit sceptical as how would it be documented? Archival scans of mags from 1980 that have been digitised? - but let's say it was. That would have happened with only a minimal EU - fans are fans, they obsess details, they nitpick - hell, Trek even issued Nitpickers Guides! - but with that level of attachment or interest comes a lot of loyalty, which LFL has a tendency to take for granted.
     
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  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I recall that if anyone ever suggested that any contradictions or flaws existed in the EU, there would be people eager to tell you that the EU has no contradictions or flaws whatsoever or that "the prequels did it too".
     
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  14. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    A newer canon will always be more analyzed than an old canon, because the old canon had nothing to compare against, while the new canon by its very nature has the old canon to compare against.
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Except is the comparison like-for-like?
     
  16. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    I think a lot of the criticism of the Canto Bight sequence is that it felt like a waste of time and relied on a lot of contrivances. Also, it was written in 2017, rather than in the 80s', and there's supposedly a Story Group helping to handle things, so those are some reasons why its held up to a higher standard than RotJ. Its the least popular OT movie (Ewoks and such), but it still mostly wrapped things up decently.

    The Tatooine sequence in RotJ isn't the best part of the movie, but it concludes the "save Han" plot, they actually had several plans going (Lando and Artoo as backup), and still leaves time for other plots to progress then conclude. Canto Bight tries to drop several lessons, didn't feel much fun, and worse its only contribution to the movie was to screw up someone else's plan. Aside from judging the quality of that plot in comparison to a thirty year old film, it just wasn't an interesting story.
     
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  17. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    I liked Canto Bight. It's the most fun The Last Jedi ever gets, it's got a good message for the kids, and Williams gives us a great new "The Next Generation" theme.
     
  18. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    A good message for kids? Because that message seems to be become a weapons marketer, sell to both the good guys and the bad and live like a king, or try to be a hero, die broken and alone, and inspire another generation on some foolish idealistic crusade to end the same way. :p

    There's a bit of a joking tone in my words, but it's actually a fairly valid interpretation, even for a kid.
     
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  19. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    And all those problems with RotJ were before they added a pointless musical number into the sequence to boot. :p.

    Yeah, the Jabba palace sequence was the weakest part of the OT. It does accomplish one thing though, which was getting Han reunited with the rest of the cast, I don't think Canto Bright even accomplishes that.

    I like the setting of Canto bright. I dislike what they did with it. Not only did it wind up being entirely irreverent. Finn of all people shouldn't need to be lectured by someone on how evil the FO is. He was an enslaved child soldier who didn't even get to have a name, and he defected the first chance he got because of the atrocities he witnessed.
     
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Regarding the old canon-there were inconsistencies but you had retcons and essential guides and people like Leland Chee to organize things into a coherent whole. Most of the time this process worked very well.

    The Nucanon has the storygroup which was marketed as ensuring one continuity but after TLJ-people became skeptical and many have concluded that there is no continuity in terms of intent to maintain it from film to film-the story group exists to clean up inconsistencies after the fact and as a marketing center as "the authoritative star wars answer platform".

    And regarding ROTJ-the tatooine sequence wraps up the Han is captured plotline-the canto bight sequence does nothing of substance for the plot or the characters. So that's the main difference.

    As for in depth nitpicking and searching for inconsistencies that's just a part of modern fan culture I'd think.
     
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    An example of the EU never being subject to any scrutiny: In TPM, Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. This implies that the Rule of Two existed before the "extinction" of the Sith. However, the EU instead said that Darth Bane created the Rule of Two at the same time that the Sith went "extinct", and the EU later introduced Kibh Jeem to explain Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two. Instead of acknowleding that the EU made a mistake, fans often claim that Lucas created a plot hole by having Yoda know about the Rule of Two (in spite of the fact that the movies never say how long the Rule of Two has been around) and that the EU saved the day by introducing Kibh Jeem.
     
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  22. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    This problem comes from the TPM novelization itself though. The way Terry Brooks summarizes the Sith history with Ruin and Bane is confusing. It's not clear if Bane is in Ruin's time or 1,000 years later. The EU clumsily tried to work with what was in the novel, so it's not entirely the EU's fault.
     
  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    By "the EU", I also mean the novelizations.
     
  24. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I find that hard to believe that the TPM novelization could really be classified as EU though. It made no mention or tried to connect the Sith species, Exar Kun, etc. which were already well established by the time TPM came around. A true EU work would do this. It's obvious the novel is a Lucas/Brooks thing and insulated from the EU that was existing of the time.

    You can say the same that new EU is contradictory by having the 7 novel have Poe and Rey meet, and they meet again in 8. Novelizations aren't really EU, new or old.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    This is just a matter of semantics. I was just saying that TPM itself isn't to blame.
     
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