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BTS The Secret History of Star Wars

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by zombie, Mar 18, 2007.

  1. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Another interesting article by zombie! (with some unnecessary criticism towards Lucas, as always, no matter how objective he claims to be: did the "different" speech patterns in the PT REALLY cause any controversy??? Or is he trying to create it?)
    Also, while most of his articles dig into the origins of the topic, in this case he appropriately ignores that it was Lucas who gave Yoda the "backwards speech" in the first place.
     
  2. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    He was actually only asked to do a 'pass' on the script GL had already written for TPM, i.e. take a look at it & make a few comments. But yes, he declined. His own quotes regarding the request are pretty diplomatic, but I get the impression he didn't want to be sucked back into the LFL/SW juggernaut, particularly what it had become by then. He had his own career beyond the GFFA, and a request for some last-minute script doctoring on the most anticipated sequel of all time was a bit much.

    That's nothing against either of them, it's merely the case that the communal film school atmosphere of the 1970s simply doesn't exist anymore for these legendary filmmakers. George Lucas can't just drop in on Francis Coppola and hand him the latest draft of a script for his opinion, any more than John Milius could have GL over for a beer and a quick look at the latest cut of a film for any editing suggestions. Everybody got older, took on new responsibilities and got too busy - much as anyone does.
    As I understand it, the one-time brats of New Hollywood still screen their films for each other, but the films are past the point where any suggestions could even be used. They don't 'workshop' anymore.
     
  3. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Kasdan's comments indicates that the intention was more than "making a few comments".
     
  4. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Probably something similar to the dialogue polish that the Huycks did in ANH.At least.
     
  5. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Ah, so I'm not the only one who sees it either.
     
  6. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    Unusually obsessive with details zombie is. Annoying to him many things must seem.
     
  7. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
  8. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    "Unusually obsessed with details is zombie. Annoyed is he, by many things."

    FIFY
     
  9. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    :pThat doesn't even sound like Yoda.
     
  10. Adali-Kiri

    Adali-Kiri Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2000
    I agree that his statements might have been diplomatic, but all the same it comes down to how you choose to believe or disbelieve. Kasdan commented that he thought the script was good enough, that it was "pure George", and that he didn't see what he could bring to it. He also said that he was anxious to see Lucas going ahead on his own and finally directing another movie that was all his own vision. I'm not sure we should assume that Kasdan was lying here and just wanted to keep his distance, but sure he's being respectful to a man that pretty much handed him his career.

    In any case, Lucas sought him out, and earlier he had actually tried to arrange for Frank Darabont to work on the Episode I script.
     
  11. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Interestingly, Making of ESB has a few snippets showing how Kasdan tweaked Lucas' Yoda dialogue.

    (Lucas)

    YODA
    Not material are we. Luminous beings are we, tied together by the Force... Yes. There are two of you... your body and your energy.

    (Kasdan)

    YODA
    Luminous beings are we...
    (Yoda pinches Luke's skin) Not this crude matter.

    (Lucas)

    LUKE
    Is the dark side stronger?

    YODA
    Not stronger, aggressive. The attacker hateful. Tempted you will be, by the easy way...

    (Kasdan)

    LUKE
    Is the dark side stronger?

    YODA
    No, no. Easier, quicker, more seductive.


    Incidentally, judging by script excerpts in the Making, it seems both Lucas' and Kasdan's drafts of ESB had a much greater amount of "normal" Yoda dialogue than the prequels do. I guess the prequel Yoda was an example of Flanderization on Lucas' part.
     
  12. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    Okely-dokely???
     
  13. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 1999
    What up peeps, long time no see. :p

    That's actually a very good reference re:Kasdan's re-write of the Lucas drafts, I wish I had skimmed through the Making of book. It fits in perfectly with the pattern discovered: all the Lucas+co-writer scripts have high amounts of correct grammar. All the Lucas-only scripts have high amounts of incorrect grammar, because he didn't have someone else re-writing the dialogue to make sound more correct.
     
  14. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    [blockquote]All the Lucas-only scripts have high amounts of incorrect grammar, because he didn't have someone else re-writing the dialogue to make sound more correct.[/blockquote]

    Possibly this is because Lucas knew he was only writing a rough first draft.

    Credit to Lucas for 'Luminous beings are we' - one of the best lines in the saga - Kasdan clearly did a cracking job though.
     
  15. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Perhaps [link=http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21028-language-50000-bc-our-ancestors-like-yoda-spoke.html]this is a marker[/link] of how common "prequel Yodish" has become in people's minds? In any case it's interesting in context of Yoda.
     
  16. anakinhasamullet

    anakinhasamullet Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 15, 2006
    "Unusually obsessed with details is Zombie. Annoyed by many things is he."
     
  17. Mond

    Mond Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 21, 2009
    There's been a "controversy" over the way Yoda talks backwards "too much" now?

    Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? Peyote?
     
  18. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    [face_laugh]Honestly, the first time I saw AOTC, I squirmed when Yoda said "Around the survivors a perimeter create!"8-}WHAT?
     
  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Its pretty consistent with, "Through the Force things you will see". Nonetheless, the AOTC line just sounds so unwieldy and awkward.

    * * *

    Also...

    Has anyone heard this Radio 4 broadcast excerpt?

    Frank Oz gives his interpretation of Yodas speech!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15009789

    * * *

    Lucky I caught that at work the other day or Id be none the wiser!
     
  20. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Yeah, it's a weird one that still matches with some OT speech. If I remember, the OVS constructions in the OT were used when the verb was "is" or "be". "Strong is Vader." etc.

    I think the awkwardness of that "survivors" line comes partially from word choice and partially from the fact that it's "wars not make one great" Yoda saying it. And maybe that Yoda in the OT seemed to have no problem saying things in SVO form, a lot. "You are reckless." "I cannot teach him." "You must learn control." etc. But no matter how that line was formed it would have sounded weird coming from Yoda, to me.
     
  21. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Don't know if Zombie frequents these boards anymore, but if you do juat wanted to say I finally got round to reading the book this year and it is awesome - explains the reasons why many of the things that didn't seem to sit right within the stories are so.

    That being said, Lucas making it up as he goes along isn't really an issue for me but thinking he needs to pretend that isn't the case is bizare.

    Just wondered if anyone had discussed that on the ROTS DVD commentary Lucas said that the part of the story where Padme decides she can't follow Anakin on his path on Mustafar was in the 1973 story - this would seem to be at best a gross exaggeration and at worst a bare faced lie
     
  22. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Really ?

    Had never heard about it, even on these boards. Actually I myself never bothered listening any of the DVD audio commentary by Lucas. But this kind of statements makes it really interesting, especially in the 1973 story !

    Anyway what was contained exactly in Lucas' backstory "treatment" by the end of 1983 and before will always remain elusive and uncertain, unless it is someday disclosed in its original form, which I doubt. Maybe parts in Rinzler's Making of ROTJ coming in 2013...The issue is only touched upon briefly in SHOSW, based off Lucas' few vague indications about it. That's one of the last great mystery surrounding the movies.

    To me, as a basic SW fan, the real blow of this book was actually that Vader was not Luke's father until ESB's 2nd draft. That's the big thing Zombie contributed to dug out and reaveal to mainstream fans like me.
     
  23. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    Didn't Prowse mention that Vader was Luke's father in an obscure interview from 1977 or 78?
     
  24. Rowboatcop

    Rowboatcop Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 11, 2011
    Yeah but only because a broken clock ends up right twice a day. (3 years of everybody wildly speculating, pretty much every possible thing was out there. Obi-wan was Luke's father, Han was Luke's brother etc.)
     
  25. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    There's also a quote from around 1975, in which GL states that in the third film, we find out "who Darth Vader really is". Prowse may have heard that, or someone referring to it, & run with it. His actual quote from 1977 refers to the revelation occurring in the third film, not the second.

    However, what GL meant in 1975 was that in the third film we (and Luke) would discover that it was specifically Darth Vader who killed Luke's father. Obi-Wan telling this to Luke first appears in the revised fourth draft, not the preceding ones.