Index The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - disc. crime lords)

Come on. They're explosions. Does anyone really need a reason?

I'd love to see a swatch of "Astro-Zinger Purple." Sounds like a fun shade!

Great interview, Mjs! I certainly hope you finish WiD.

 

Wonderful interview. Now I'm intrigued in that story.

 

I enjoyed reading that interview, mjs. That was a great explanation of what you did with Clip.

I have a deal for you: I'll finish Nameless if you finish WiD.

 

Tenth Update

Greetings and salutations. It?s time for the Seedy Side V. 2.0?s first update in the double digits! Yippee! Glad to see everyone enjoying these interviews. I?ll have to plan for another one next month. *scans index thoughtfully*

But enough outta me. Howsabout another fic for the index? Here?s one from SiriKenobi12. It?s about Siri, yes, one of those Jedi scum. But, she?s undercover as a pirate, and interacting with the criminal element in an effort to bring down a slaver. So I think it works. Plus, she?s got a great attitude in this fic.

My Name is Zora? I am a Pirate

Timeline: JQ era

Genre: Adventure/drama

Main character: Siri (alias Zora)

Summary: Zora has been arrested for kidnapping slaves, she tells her story to a mind healer.

Status: In-progress

---

And let?s finish this off with a whole new topic of discussion?

[b][color=teal]"A Man's Ship"[/b][/color]

What role does transportation play in the underworld? What does a ship or speeder mean to your favorite underworld character, OC or canon? To the Seedy Side in general? Give us your opinion on anything to do with the criminal element?s vehicles.

 

I think a seedy sider's ship is his 'mate'. The outlaw loves his ship and takes care of it, even better than himself. Her trusts his ship and he fights for it. Its his best friend.

-The One
-The Only
-The Flir

~Brant_Flir

 

I think transportation has a huge interrelationship with the seedy sider in question. Indeed a Star Wars character's vehicle is an extension of their very personality. For example, you could not think of Han Solo without the Falcon, Boba Fett without Slave I, or even Dash Rendar without the Outrider. So, a person's mode of transport is a direct reflection of who they are.

From a personal standpoint, I just gave my OC Sal Vinz his own vehicle dubbed the SLick Willy, and what Vinz did was convert a firespeeder a la Ep. III into his personal transport by giving it a hyperdrive and taking away the spray nozzles and installing laser cannons. There are other reasons he chose that particular vehicle, but the Slick Willy is no doubt a very good representation of who Sal is as a seedy sider in the SWU.

 

Great thoughts, Brant_Flir, JMT. I?d agree with both of you.

A lot of seedy siders, I?d say, are closer to their ship than they are any actual person. It?s a close bond. The ship never judges them, or asks them to do it a favor, or anything like that. It?s a place to rest and relax between jobs, and often a source of professional pride.

And a good underworld ship is very much a product of its owner?s personality. Of course, the canon criminals generally already have one assigned to them. But if you?re making an OC with a ship, it should definitely be a representation of your character. Or maybe your character?s ship is just the opposite of what you?d expect; that might be an interesting statement.

In the underworld, a ship often means freedom. Whether that?s the escape the Tatooine merc dreams of being able to purchase, or the liberation your character feels when she can finally get off her homeworld and becoming a traveled smuggler.

As for my characters, I probably don?t give it as much thought as I should. I usually consider the name more. My detectives from the Galaxy Noir series have flown in two ships so far, the Freelancer I and II. Both are freighters, a bit beat up but still plenty functional. The ?lancer II is mostly built for defense; I thought that was appropriate for them. They?ve had two because the first blew up. Ouch.

Speaking of, I think ships can almost serve as characters themselves, with deaths and everything. Except nobody yells at you when you kill them off, unless it?s the Falcon or something. Now, they obviously don?t actually have personalities and they don?t have character arcs. But you can change them, and it?s usually a good way to affect the plot or deliver a message thematically. I know in mjs?s Working in Darkness, one of the first things that happens to Clip is that his ship gets melted down. Besides getting him stuck on the planet, it also serves to make him stand up on his own without a ship to hide away in ? or to run away in. It boils him down and forces him to use other parts of himself to get out of the messes he gets in. It?s quite interesting to see.

Ah, there's some of my thoughts. What about you? Yes, you.

 

The ship is definitely the embodiment of a seedy sider's freedom-see also Pirates of the Caribbean. Paging Fate to the Seedy Side. Paging Fate.

Face brings up the point I wanted to about ships being able to be characters in their own way. Now, I know some people get tired of Firefly talk, but that's a show that really managed to pull that aspect off well. If Serenity gets damaged, it's like watching one of the crew wounded. You hurt sympathetically. But! It takes a lot of work, to build up the ship like that.

Heck, if there's one way to make a character easy to dislike, have them hate their ship. Nobody would like somebody who behaved that way. It's love that keeps her in the air when she ought fall down, as a smart fictional man once said.

 

*Checks in and pretends he's been here this whole time*

Forcefire, great points of reference from stuff outside of star wars. When it comes to the Seedy Side that's usually a good place to look, as the Star Wars Canon Trilogy (particularly the Prequels) deal surprisingly little in underworld goings on. Besides Han and the Falcon, there are very few strong connections between person and ship. Boba/Jango and Slave One perhaps, in a twisted kind of way.

If you get into the EU, then you can start arguing Lando and the Lady Luck can qualify. As can Karrde and the Wild Karrde. To a lesser extent, Booster Terrik and the Errant Venture. But as you pointed out Forcefire - it takes a long time to build a connection between a living thing and a ship.

There was a moment in Timothy Zahn's books - one of the Hand of Thrawn books, I can't remember which - when Mara crashed a ship that Luke had given her into a facility and spent a good deal of time in tears. It didn't work for mine, because for all of Zahn's careful setup and emotive language at the time, I just didn't feel the connection there. He had only the space of one book to set up this sub-plot, and so hence Mara's pain just seems a little baffling rather than moving.

So, what's my point here - seems to be that a connection between a character and a ship is a tenuous thing. If they're done well they are a brilliant metaphor for freedom and the unharnessable (I'm making it a word) nature of a Seedy Side character. It means the bad guys can pop up anywhere and the good guys run anywhere else to get away. BUT, that said - I don't think they're extremely necessary to a Seedy Side character either. It all depends on the type of story, and the type of character.

And oh! Thankyou so much to everyone for the kind replies to the interview. I'll be sure to show you all the wonders of Astro-Zinger purple one of these days. And when I do, you will understand just how good a lightsaber blade can be.

 

Ugh, I've been having computer troubles lately. I'm hoping to get a new one sometime in the vaguely near future. But I have not abandoned you, loyal (or as loyal as criminals get) Seedy Siders! So here's a bit of a side-exercise to do with the topic. It kind of spins out of what mjs mentioned (speaking of, good points, Forcefire and mj).

So here it is, Getting to Know You - Starship Edition!

Fill out the questionnaire for one of your ships (some explanations are provided):

Name:

Type of Ship: (like, is it a Corellian YT-1300 freighter? If so, you're a copycat )

Strengths: (is it well-armed? Can it do the Kessel Run in a half-parsec? If so, it may be a Millenium Sue )

Weaknesses: (opposite of above)

Weapons (if applicable):

Quirks:

Owner:

How did this ship come into this owner's hands?: (Briefly)

******

See what you can do with that. I'll return with an actual new topic sometime soon. Ish.

 

I?ll go first.

Name: Freelancer II
Type of Ship: Corellian Flurry C3-200 freighter
Strengths: Enhanced shields, good speed for a freighter
Weaknesses: Not very many weapons, still not that fast
Weapons (if applicable): Belly-mounted swiveling ion cannon, standard lasers
Quirks: Has a full computer terminal in the cockpit area (just behind the pilot and copilot seats), and a very nice pantry, complete with caf-maker
Owner: Investigator-for-hire Remy Diabet
How did this ship come into this owner?s hands?: Remy bought the Freelancer II following the destruction of the first ?lancer. He purchased it on the fog world a?Ranti with the credits he and his partner Jav had saved up for ship maintenance and much of their emergency food stockpile.

Hmm, I wish their ship were less boring. Really, the interiors are the defining thing for it. Hanging out in its kitchen, using the computer, etc. I play up more of the roaming ?home? aspect with it.

 

Eleventh Update

Hey there! It's time once again for a Seedy Side Author Interview! So let's get right to it. In the hotseat today is GrandAdmiralV!




[color=5C65D0]1) What is your name?[/color]

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. Just call me GAV.

[color=5C65D0]2) What is your quest?[/color]

To seek the Holy -- um, to restore Imperial dominance to the galaxy.

[color=5C65D0]3) What is your favorite color? [/color]

Green.

[color=5C65D0]4) Can you give us some background information on yourself? [/color]

I work for a magazine publisher as a copy editor. I have quite a bit of down time on my job, so I write a lot at work. Luckily, no one seems to care. I've been a huge Star Wars fan ever since the first film came out. (I guess I'm dating myself there!) Other than that, I like to participate in historical reenactment groups (Society for Creative Anachronism, Single Action Shooting Society, Brigade of the American Revolution). I make historical costumes and do historical dance (Victorian ballroom, English country) when I'm not writing. Oh, and my husband calls me "Imelda" because of my vast shoe collection. Most people who know me say that scene from The Blues Brothers where Carrie Fisher is painting her nails and reading up on how to construct a flame thrower describes me perfectly.

[color=5C65D0]5) What draws you to Star Wars writing - more specifically the seedy side of the GFFA? [/color]

Well, Star Wars provides such an enormous, rich universe to play in that the possibilities really are endless. The films explored a sort of mythic arc in that universe, but there are so many more stories that can be told in that setting. I've always been drawn to the gray characters (or the so-charcoal-they're-practically-black characters). I think it's great that so many people like to write about Jedi, but I'm more interested in those who are a little less...noble. They're more unpredictable and therefore more fun for me to write.

[color=5C65D0]6) Who or what has influenced/inspired your writing?[/color]

Everyone from Jane Austen to Timothy Zahn. I'm a voracious reader and read just about anything -- the classics, mysteries, fantasy, science fiction, and of course a lot of the EU stuff (you need it for research purposes!). I like to write romance, but I don't read much of it because a lot of it is just...silly.

[color=5C65D0]7) Do you have a special approach to writing the underworld? [/color]

Good question. I'm a very seat-of-the-pants, intuitive kind of writer, so I do a lot on instinct. But I think the one thing you have to keep in mind when you're writing seedy characters is that, the majority of the time at least, they're motivated by self-interest. They're not out to save the galaxy. Usually they're just trying to make a fast credit, or maybe keep from getting whacked by whomever they might have crossed in the past.

[color=5C65D0]8) Who is your favorite seedy canon character? The one you'd most like to write about?[/color]

I have to say that Boba Fett is definitely my favorite seedy character. Even though he operates on the fringes and is completely ruthless, he does have his own code. I suppose that's why I've written him first. After that, I'm not completely sure -- although it might be fun to write a fic about Bib Fortuna. Or Talon Karrde. That would be tough, because that guy is always one step ahead of everyone else.

[color=5C65D0]9) Which is, or might be, the most challenging to write? [/color]

Boba Fett is, I think the most challenging. But maybe I'm just saying that because he's the only one I've written so far.

[color=5C65D0]10) You write Boba Fett himself very well - and in a romance of all things! How? [/color]

I made the conscious decision never to write any of either Blood and Ashes or Mandalore's Son

 

I don't have any ship specifics worked out yet, but I'll give that some thought.

Nice interview with GrandAdmiralV. This I agreed with in particular:

Well, Star Wars provides such an enormous, rich universe to play in that the possibilities really are endless. The films explored a sort of mythic arc in that universe, but there are so many more stories that can be told in that setting.

That's precisely what I've always felt was valuable about the Star Wars setting- it allows for such diversity.

 

I follow my master everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE.

With that said, I can't believe I didn't find this thread earlier. The seedy side is one of the most underused portions of the SW universe, IMO...I mean, you see plenty about it, but it's just not there in the droves that, say, Jedi stories are.

Very cool interview. GAV mentioned something that I know I need to keep in mind with my own writing of seedier characters: But I think the one thing you have to keep in mind when you're writing seedy characters is that, the majority of the time at least, they're motivated by self-interest. They're not out to save the galaxy. Usually they're just trying to make a fast credit, or maybe keep from getting whacked by whomever they might have crossed in the past.

I keep forgetting to do that in my stories, even my original stuff. People stop being seedy and start trying to be noble. And there's nothing wrong with that; the seedy-turns-noble theme has its place. Just not when it's not welcome.

 

Glad you guys liked it! I thought it was a very interesting read. Thanks again, GAV. And welcome to the Seedy Side, unknown_shore.

Aye, how true. But we'll show them. We'll show them all...

Hope you stick around, unknown_shore. We're a fun bunch once you learn to properly secure your valuables.

My computer's been on the fritz, so it'll be a bit before the next update. Feel free to continue discussion on the interview or the ships of the underworld.

 

*Fate, hearing only 'ship' and 'Pirates of the Caribbean', is mysteriously lured from the vortex of RL into the depths of shadow...*

I can't stay long, I'm afraid. The place looks awesome, though, Face; I knew I picked the right man for the job. Everything's sparkly, pretty, well-organized, and generally ship-shape. I heartily approve, Cap'n.

*cracks knuckles* And now to business.

You will be delighted to hear that we are... on schedule.

*sighs* I still have SW on the brain, I see. Anyhow, ships. Sparrow was definitely his ship. I really don't think he was entirely at home until he was reunited with his one true love - his Black Pearl. Just the name of his ship gave us insight into his character. Think about it - a black... pearl. What does that conjure up in the mind's eye? I think of Sparrow himself, with his seedy ways and unscrupulous outlook as the black laqueur overlaying the pearl of a man he was beneath... no. That's not it. He really was just that - a black pearl. The pearls thought him tainted, but he knew himself.

But I digress - this is about Star Wars. My point is that any seedy-sider worth his salt had a ship, and that all such ships reflected the personalities of their pilots. Take Boba's Slave I as opposed to Han's Falcon, and you immediately see the differences in the two temperaments, even down to how they felt about their ships.

This may not make much sense - I haven't been around in a while. But I did want to briefly drop in to give you a well deserved pat on the back, Face. The place looks great, the interviews and stories are awesome, and thanks to everyone for supporting the gray side of the Force.

 

Fate! *briefly removes cap'n hat for a gentlemanly bow* Glad y' approve. That's exactly what I was thinking with that subject. The ship is really a manifestation of the character's personality (or possibly a striking contrast against it).

Update still coming soon. Promise. Scoundrel's honor.

 

Twelfth Update

Okay, as promised, the update. Really. I tell you the truth. ...Fine, see for yourself.

We start with an author new to the Seedy Side, Alaneia. Welcome!

The Con of a Lifetime

Timeline: Leading up to TESB
Genre: AU, romance
Main characters: Jaiden Macaria, Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Boba Fett
Summary: Han Solo's singer sister is caught up in the underworld he lives in when she accepts an offer from Lando Calrissian.
Status: In-progress

And then we have another fic from The_Face. Don't groan.

Galaxy Grey

Timeline: approx. 30 years post-RotJ
Genre: Murder mystery, action, humor, drama
Main characters: OCs - Remy Diabet, Jav Yonx, Messuni Diabet, Naoe H'enu
Summary: Freelance investigators, 15 years after retiring, are brought together again to find out who is killing an old friend?s allies in the same style as a serial killer they took down themselves.
Status: In-progress

And now, a new topic of discussion:

?I Ain?t in This for Your Revolution?

Han Solo is the original GFFA rogue. When we first met him in what was simply ?Star Wars?, he was a scoundrel, a pirate, a smuggler, in over his head with a crime lord, and expecting to be well-paid. We saw a brash, shoot-first attitude that many have tried to capture with other seedy-siders. *cough*Dash Rendar*cough* We saw a fiercely devoted copilot who sort of looked like a big furry dog. Later on, though, Han went legitimate, and was never quite as fun.

So. What do you like or dislike about Underworld!Han? What are your methods for writing him in this light? How do you feel about the character arc that has formed over the years ? from novels describing his early years to those that have taken him well into middle age? When, exactly, did he stop being seedy? What are your thoughts on how he has affected the idea of what this archetype should be? Any and all discussion on Captain Solo as it pertains to the underworld is on-topic.

 

SeedySider - Thanks so much for adding me to your list

Okay - as for Han Solo, I think he stopped being seedy after he rescued Leia in TESB. The fact that he was ready to take off and leave to go take care of Jabba and then at the last minute he runs to rescue Leia says it all. I love Han Solo the way we first saw him in Star Wars - arrogant, cocky, shoot first and ask questions later....etc....

 

Since Han is by far my fave character, I must say I loved him in ANH and through ROTJ. What I liked was watching his progress from "seedy" to "a nice man", and in the EU, watching that progress continue to becoming a husband and father. Even in ANH, there was evidence that he was a lot softer on the inside than what he showed on the outside. So, I have no problem with his development. If he would have remained the same, that, in my opinion, would have been very boring. It would have been equal to Luke remaining the naive sandfarmer, and never becoming a Jedi.

 

Later on, though, Han went legitimate, and was never quite as fun

Oh, has no one ever heard of the evolution of a consciousness?

Right...anyway, in terms of the character arc...I can't speak for the EU half, except for the Brian Daley trilogy. I liked that characterisation just fine...from what I've seen of the others (Crispin, Wolverton in COPL)...I don't think they get it. Especially in COPL...for one thing, it wouldn't be in Han's nature to kidnap Leia just to get her to marry him. I mean, this was the guy who offered to walk away at the end of ROTJ, even though you knew it was going to hurt him big time. But that was definitely more in character for Han than...well, what that book portrayed. (It also wouldn't be in Leia's nature to act like...well, like she did in that thing...another discussion for that one).

As for when he stopped being seedy...I think the turning point came before ESB. Actually, I can say for certain that's when it happened. Because the guy that you see walking into the command center is NOT the same guy you saw at the end of ANH (although you could tell the transformation had begun...he actually fastened up his shirt
for the medal ceremony ). It was a gradual process, but I think the Ord Mantell incident might have been a major catalyst that kicked him in the butt and made certain things more clear to him. Smuggler dude starts leaving the profession behind, with all the crap that comes with being in a dangerous profession. Bye-bye, underworld.

In regards to how it affects the archetype...it turns the old thing on its metaphorical ear, at least to some extent. The myth of the lone anti-hero, out there in the world, doing everything for himself and nothing for anyone else, is a peculiarly American creation in many ways. Gunslinger guy, you could call it. But the journey Han's character takes
from ANH (and before, if you include the EU) to ROTJ (and again, the EU) is an interesting progression.

 

- Amen to that!

 

I think the profic authors runied Han's character - that's why I read fanfic and not profic.

 

Aww man, I?m so sorry I haven?t been by to discuss. Nobody cares about my excuses anyway, so let?s get right to it.

First, I?m very excited that this topic has brought some discussion (and a couple new faces). Alaneia and leiamoody, Welcome to the Seedy Side.? Thank you everyone for adding your thoughts.

Umm, I?ve heard about the Ord Mandell incident, but never quite understood what exactly went down there. I guess they ran into a bounty hunter? That?s about the extent of my knowledge there.

I like Underworld!Han. I like him a lot, for most of the reasons I listed in the update. He?s that guy, but he?s also something beneath the surface that?s compelling to read or watch too. And when he?s there, Chewie probably is too. That?s a big plus in my book. I?ve never written Han, so I couldn?t really tell you how to write him in any situation.

I?d say Han crossed over from The Seedy Side at the end of ANH. He retained some of his smuggler flair, but was pretty much devoted to the Rebellion (or at least certain people in it). He was still brash, cocky, and irresponsible, but he wasn?t grey enough to fit here. That?s my opinion. However, I think that if someone wrote a post-ANH Han story in which he was involved in the underworld, instead of just working with the Alliance the whole time, that could fit. Maybe some old grudge comes up in the form of a crime boss (well, I suppose that would be Jabba, but you know what I mean). Maybe an old criminal pal needs help to get out of trouble with the law. Does Han do it? That would probably be a Seedy Side story.

That?s not to say that the character arc isn?t a good and natural thing for him to do. If he had remained static and stagnant, I wouldn?t care. Just that once he progresses so far, he?s not in himself Seedy Side material.

The character of Han is something we see in more than a few westerns, really. So Han didn?t invent the archetype, so much as take it to the stars. Eh? Eh? Yes, I?m trying too hard. Anyway, Harrison Ford did a fantastic job of making him roguish and out for himself, yet lovable. And, as I said, we?ve seen so many imitators since. I think he may not have created it, but at least popularized a sort of sub-archetype.

That?s all I?ve got for now. Talk amongst yourselves.

Face

 

Well, if we believe in the EU, He ahd already once tried to leave the Seedy Side... When he entered the Imperial Navy. And even if he got kicked out of there, he was proud of his Corellian Bloodstripes. I think part of him wanted to be nice much earlier than ANH.