Index The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - disc. crime lords)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by SeedySider, Dec 27, 2005.

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  1. The_Face Ex-Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Forcefire, excellent topic. I must admit I wasn?t sure what direction to go with this one, but it?s provoked some good discussion. Thumb?s up. :D

    The Warlord-of-the-Week era was basically a big turf battle, all the pieces of the Empire being split up in decidedly unequal portions. Who can grab the biggest piece of the pie? Those self-made warlords and gangsters seem cut of the same cloth anyway.

    I have to agree with your list of what it takes to be that successful in the underworld.

    This topic actually kind of makes me think of Empire at War?s Forces of Corruption expansion pack (yeah, a video game). A territory war with the Hutts is one of the first problems you run into in the underworld campaign. In the end, I probably took over three-quarters of the Outer Rim, but I established slaving, black markets, racketeering operations, etc. on pretty much every world I didn?t control. Many times it?s not a matter of having political boundaries. I imagine there were plenty of Imperial worlds that were in practice owned by crime lords. In a way, it might be safer for the criminal that way, just paying off the ?rulers? of the world to let you run it behind the scenes ? seedy-siders like it in the shadows, right?

    That is the perennial advantage of GFFA criminals. There?s always a war on, and the Republic/Jedi/Empire/New Republic/NJO can?t be troubled to deal with spice smugglers when some maniac?s got a Super Star Destroyer aimed at crushing some poor planet. So it?s down to other folk to take care of the wretched hives of scum and villainy, and CorSec are so much easier to buy off than Jedi. Bonus advantage: War profiteering, 24/7!

    Hey, thanks for the references to Sonar and the Royal. Happy to help with examples. :p Yeah, probably half the seedy-siders out there are free agents who don?t worry about territory unless taking some for somebody else will pay well. Consider the veritable army of bounty hunters out there, as compared to, say, mob enforcers whose area of work is more stable.

    I like those levels of criminal influence.

    Sounds right to me. The Royal owns Bortelles, and rarely ventures outside to where he doesn?t make the rules. There was a bit of business with an escape artist who lived in Coronet, but he had help there (*cough*Network*cough*). :p And of course, Forcefire?s Demerisks (who were the eventual end of the Royal) own neighboring Phorim City in a similar way. That?s turf conflict right there, even if non-canon.

    Yod, fascinating research! The Hutts? territory does seem to be amazingly constant. Looks the same at every era. With all the turmoil the rest of the galaxy?s borders gets subjected to every decade or so, it is almost enviable. Caponeland is a good hypothetical. Sounds lik
  2. Trevin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2007
    star 1
    Hello. I was just popping in and saying I would like to.. join the ranks of seedy writers. I have a seedy fic going on now in the Saga board. It is named Blood Money. I hope to fit in well here.
  3. 1Yodimus_Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 4
    Great to see you wander in here, Trevin!
    It might be a good idea to submit that story to our friendly neighborhood sock, so it can be indexed.

    Joining our ranks will require a questionable transaction to be performed in a dark alley during a rainstorm, while a shadey figure watches silently under a flickering street lamp. If he's shot moments before revealing your location to an aloof private investigator, you're in.
    :cool: ;)
  4. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    And if the femme fatale who shot the shady figure is a friend of yours, extra points. :D

    Now, in my half-asleep state, I'm going to come up with a challenge response about the guy from the Police. What's his name? Sand? Bee? Sting!
  5. Luton_Plunder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    Welcome, Trevin! :D

    Extra extra points if you thought you killed said femme fatale years ago, and this turns out to be her twin looking for revenge :cool:

    And wow, this topic has evolved into a wealth of interesting tidbits :D I've never known so much about Hutts, thanks Yodimus and Face. I think you're right, Jabba has to be a weirdo if he's into human(oid) women. Reverse it the other way, and he's the equivalent to a human who finds the idea of an overgrown, slobbering slug to be attractive. I guess there's probably one somewhere in the world [face_sick] Hell, there's probably a forum dedicated to it somewhere. Thanks, Internet.

    Turf is a complex topic in the GFFA, it seems. I guess in the end, it doesn't matter what banner any one world chooses to fly. There are layers of ownership being put down by dozens of other parties - seedy, political, piratical (this should be a word, if it isn't already). Look at Corellia, for instance. It's officially a neutral planet, yet CorSec is required to liaise with the Empire on all its activities. It's also one of the most crime-infested places in the galaxy, and yet it also happens that a good portion of the Rebellion's best recruits come from there.

    So, on the topic of people who managed to carve out their own portion of the galaxy...there were also the Hapans. These guys (or primarily girls, to be accurate) survived in their own little world for thousands of years. Granted they had help thanks to some kind of anomaly on the border of their territory, but it wasn't impenetrable. I found this on Wookiepedia:


    Kind of strange, huh. The Empire didn't seem too fussed on keeping direct control over every facet of the galaxy. Though to be fair, Emperor Palpatine had alot on his plate during his reign. First he had to kill all the Jedi, and then had to stamp out all the rebellion in the territories he already controlled. Had he not been overthrown, and had Vader managed to head the Rebellion off earlier, perhaps he might have made an effort to topple the Hapans and the Hutts. He says as much in his Declaration of the New Order. As it is, evidence suggests he just never got around to it because the New Order didn't last long enough.
  6. 1Yodimus_Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 4
    Out of general fear of your statement, Luton, and a morbid curiousity I wish I didn't have, I decided to do a search and see if there really were any message boards of that calibre.

    And while my search was by no means thorough, I'm happy to report that the phrase "Hot Hutt Action" recieves zero hits on Google. (whew!)
  7. Luton_Plunder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    Faith in humanity: restored.
  8. The_Face Ex-Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Guys, I just want to let you know how happy I am that this thread has turned to a discussion about "Hot Hutt Action" (and that it is Capitalized). [face_laugh]


    Also, welcome to the Seedy Side, Trevin! :D We don't bite, but I'd switch your drink with that of the person who gave it to you now and then. ;)
  9. Mjsullivan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 3
    I think I'll steer well clear of this Hutt topic :p

    This concept of ownership of territory always kind of interested and irked me at the same time. I've been of the opinion that a true seedy sider, one that's in it solely for themselves and sees things in shades of grey, doesn't care about territory. They galaxy is their territory, and they go where they please. I know this isn't a blanket rule, but it seems to work for the kinds of OCs I like to write.

    To relate this all back to The Departed, there's a fine illustration of just how tough it is to maintain your territory. I wont give away any spoilers, sufficeth to say that if I were Jack Nicholson I would have gone insane years ago with all that potential betrayal and backstabbing. It can make a man paranoid, and ultimately undo him. Especially when someone like Vader can show up and summarily destroy your skyhook without batting an eyelid.

    'Cause he doesn't have any.

    But seriously, folks...
  10. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think as far as "turf" goes, with the two major crime syndicates the Hutts (who are hemaphrodites by spontenaity btw, which makes me shudder at the phrase "Hott Hutt Action") and the Black Sun; there seems to be a a brittle and uneasy "understanding".

    Granted both groups have similar interests, but each would dive at an opportunity to steal piece of the other's action.

    It became even more cutthroat after the subsequent falls of both Xixor and Jabba so close together, with a mad scramble for the scraps of their "empires" by their own henchmen, and other minor organizations such a Kardde's.

  11. SeedySider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    Wise man. :p

    Hmm, much like a certain other Empire. Incidentally, Karrde is underused.

    Thanks for adding to the topic, so that I can immediately switch it on you. ;)

    Twenty-Second Update

    As usual, we start things off with some new fics. First, there?s two by Corran_Fett, who is new to the Seedy Side Index.

    1. Rage of the Shadow Warriors: Pariah

    Timeline: in the middle of the Vong wars, NJO

    Genre: Action, Angst (one-shot)

    Main Character: Gladus Tite

    Summary: A Mandalorian outlaw goes to a high-security prison on Rattatak, on the backgrop of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, who don't take all too long to show up. With their arrival, Gladus Tite is offered an opportunity to escape, and to even more...

    Status: Complete

    2. Bounty

    Timeline: 4 years after the Battle of Geonosis (19/18 BBY / The Purge era)

    Genre: Action vignette

    Main Characters: A-52 Jaing

    Summary: A rogue ARC Trooper-turned-bounty hunter who made it his goal to pick up Jango Fett's legacy as the best bounty hunter in the galaxy is on the hunt for a fugitive Jedi on a Force-forsaken planet. His client is no other than the Emperor himself, and his bounty isn't the first Jedi he has taken out.

    Status: Complete


    And then, another name new to the thread, please welcome Trevin!

    Blood Money

    Timeline: ANH-ROTJ

    Genre: Angst, action, mystery

    Main characters: Mustia, Luke, Vader, and other Star Wars Canon Characters

    Summary: A Bounty Hunter takes up a bounty that changes the galaxy for the worse, and he realizes and regrets it all too late.

    Status: In-progress


    And now, a new topic of discussion!

    "No Good, Dirty, Stinking Rat."

    We continue our Departed theme with another subject suggested by Forcefire. (Remember, I always welcome those suggestions for topics/challenges/stories/etc.) Oh, and if you discuss the film, remember to keep spoilers highlight-to-read, mmkay? So:

    The snitch is an important underworld figure, giving information to people willing to pay while doing business for the criminals they inform on. Let's analyze loyalty and betrayal in the seedy corners of the GFFA.

    Read, reply, and discuss, mateys!


    SeedySider
    />
  12. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks for adding them to the Index. :)


    Cool discussion topic. I loved Departed (you really need to see that one, Face :rolleyes: ;) :p ), especially Wahlberg's cool cameo - he should've gotten that damn oscar. [face_plain]


    A "good" criminal's only as loyal as far as he can throw his bag of dirty money. He doesn't care about other, just for himself, and tries to stay alive while playing out different "employers" against each other (ala Slevin, or Bruce Willis in Last Man Standing).

    Most of the time, money and greed plays a major role in that, although some blokes are driven by personal issues (like a vendetta, as with Slevin).

    Betrayal in the underworld is about as common practice as Jabba and the Hutts are known to be slimy, literally. Only when things stay in the family (like mafia), loyalty plays a more important role, maybe even some sort of "patriotism" for the mod-boss/godfather. Although it begs the question if there is something like family-based criminal organizations in the GFFA [face_thinking] (not counting above mentioned slimy Hutts doing what the.... no, I stop right there, lol^^ [face_talk_hand] )


    Okay, I must admit I'm not too familiar with SW underworld, but that's my two two-sided cents. [face_whistling]
  13. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think when it comes to "snitches" there's plenty out there, but not many come right to mind...Karde's people are always described as "loyal", and if he suspects any legit turncoats, he's quick to "dismiss" them.

    Xixor's minions always tended to live in constant paralizing fear, but with Jabba you don't have to look any further than the door man Bib Fortuna.

    Right away in RotJ when we're introduced to the Twi'lek, Threepio mentions a message and "gift" for Jabba; and ol' Bib is aready licking his lips, and sticking his clamy hands out. "Give it to me, I'll see that he gets it." *wink, wink*

    Tell me that guy wouldn't pretend to drop alms in a beggars hat only to pull out a handful more.

    I'm sure there are better examples in the EU, but the stories predictability usually ends with Boba Fett hunting them down. Better yet, there's probably better example here on these boards, but again I can't think of any off the top of my head.

  14. Jedi_Eruanne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2005
    star 3
    Hmmm, the snitch...the 'friend'...the BETRAYER! Oooooo...my favorite thing EVAR! When someone you thought you could trust in a story suddenly becomes a bad guy...the story just gets that much better. (ala, Erasi Dlaret in the X-Wing series) It's like when the author kills a character off and you're suddenly scared for all the otehr characters---when the author reveals that there IS a mole (but doesn't tell you who) you start suspecting all the characters...and hoping against hope that your favorite one isn't the one. ;) It's one of my favorite plot twists, though I still have yet to add it into one of my own stories. (scared stiff, if you want the honest truth. ;) )

    I'll be watching this discussion with great interest.... :D :D Awesome idea, Forcefire! *huggles*
  15. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    Yes, but Karrde's not really that usual underworld lowlife, in my eyes. But you've got a point, with a charismatic leader, loyalty gets seen more often, I'd say.

    :p Yes, good catch. That's exactly what I tried to express in my post.^^

    Good call, here. I liked that in X-Wing, too, and also in varios series I'm watching. Twists are necessary to keep a story flowing, if you don't overdo it.

    Now that Eruanne mentions it, I just noticed that a mole/snitch is exactly the element that drives my current WIP... it'll be two or three chapters until anything significant happens, but I've already made lots of indications of which character is the traitor. If only I had the readers, now, who would really dig that deep and feel for my mediocre OCs, lol... :p [face_whistling]
  16. Luton_Plunder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3

    Too right. In fact, alot of the EU seedy siders make out like this is the way they roll, but because of the fact that they're in a story about good versus evil they end up picking the side of the rebels/new republic. We do know that Karrde USED to deal with both the rebels and the Emprie, but he clearly turns to good, even if he does insist that he's neutral. The mainstay description I think I've heard is that 'they aren't supporters of the Rebels, but they've got no love of the Empire' :p


    Heheh, good old Karrde. I can't really think of an out-and-out snitch at the moment either. But I think one of my favourite 'questionable loyalty' storylines would have to be Tycho from the X-wing series. Everyone always knew that he was innocent and a good man, because Wedge was his friend. But there was a little while there when I was convinced that he'd offed Corran :eek:


    This is the specific reason why I will put my hand on my heart and say that, in my extensive experience with the James Bond films, the remake of Casino Royale is the best one ever made. I wont spoil the storyline for anyone that hasn't seen it, but the way that movie played around with my expectations of who was on who's side just dumbfounded me. It actually inspired me to change the entire season-arc of my fic series! Now that's some good movie-ing.



  17. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    [face_thinking] You're saying that every underworldler would start joining the Rebels because they're "good"? I wouldn't think so - if they (esp. smugglers) join the Rebels, then it's for reasons that they have something against the Empire. Most thieves, pirates and all other kind of scum and villainy wouldn't join either side, and stay neutral, stay in the underworld, stay in criminal organizations.

    Yes, Casino Royale stood very much out in that regard. More of a deep story, twisted plot and more believable characters than people are used to in James Bond films, which are, after all, centered on action. I, for my part, would love to see even less action in future Bond films, and more (good) story, but this probably won't do because people won't see it as James Bond any longer, then.

    Anyhow, I'm getting off-topic. :oops:
  18. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6

    I think, what Luton tried to say is that, because they are in a story they end up joining the good side because that's what most people want their heroes to do, the right thing, the good thing. Forget about real business and follow the rules of story-telling, which demands that likable character are 'good'.
    The seedy siders of the GFFA usually have to 'side' sooner or later. And since it's a story they, of course, chose to do the right thing and join the heroes (Republic). Those who don't sooner or later turn into bad guys (think Niles Ferrier).
    I think it's a phenomenon of stories everywhere.
  19. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    [face_thinking]

    Yes, you're right. I wasn't thinking story-technical here. Although I think it adds way more depth to a story if your character isn't black/white, and your story is more oriented to realistic, real-deal scenarios rather than "good story telling" (what often comes with, erm... clichés...)

    I wonder if I should change my perspective on the GFFA to an angle from story-telling, rather than seeing things in the "real-deal"-way...
  20. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6

    I think that depends on what you want. A lot of things that are 'unrealistic' can easily be explained from the meta-level of story-telling. Many personla reasons of characters can be reduced to 'because the story demands it' if you want to. But that alone does not make a good story, you're right. If you only looked at that, you'd have stuff riddled with clichés...
    The closer you can keep a story to the 'real deal' without stumping all expectations of story-telling (who really wants an extremly detailed string of events not leading up to anything except death?), the better it may be. I have not thought about that yet. I'll be back later with more thoughts.[face_thinking]
  21. 1Yodimus_Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 4
    Depending on the unique situation - of which there are many in the GFFA - I think it would be very easy to paint the Rebel Alliance as bad guys and the Empire as good guys. In a story with that kind of perspective as its basis, it would ideally be the antagonist who joins the rebels, rather than the character you want your readers to sympathize with.
  22. Luton_Plunder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3

    Not exactly. I was just pointing out that in the EU that exists in Star Wars, there are very few examples of people who are entirely neutral. That's got less to do with the nature of underworld criminals than it has to do with the nature of star wars EU being about Good versus Evil. The whole of star wars boils down to that, in canon anyway, and so inevitably underworld characters can be loosely classed as "good guys" or "bad guys". Karrde, he's a good guy. Boba Fett? He's a bad guy.

    That's where we're lucky. We get to decide that there isn't any such thing as right or wrong and have characters that aren't clearly defined. Underworld stories arent about good versus evil. They're about characters, situations, grey areas. It's why we love them [face_batting]




    I was kind of getting at that when I said that the reasoning given for most seedy siders joining any given side is that they aren't supporters of that side, they just don't like the other one. That's a perfectly legitimate reason, too, if it's well executed. I think it usually is pretty well executed. Take Lando - Leia asks if they can trust him. Han responds "He's got no love of the Empire". Therefore, enemy of enemy and whatnot comes into play ;)

    Net result is that Lando is a good character, because he's opposed to the bad ones.



    I don't think there has to be a distinction. "Good storytelling" is simply that. Telling a good story. If you can do that by having all your seedyside characters hold hands and join the Rebels, then great. If you can do it by having a multi-layered character with complex relationships and allegiances that are only revealed through a torturous set of flashbacks, then that's great too. Depth of character generally leads to good storytelling.

    I should say, I agree with what you're saying about characters - they're much better when they have realistic motivations, Seedy Siders especially. When I (and MsLanna, but I don't want to speak for her) say that from a story telling point of view existing seedy side characters are predisposed to taking sides and becoming 'good' or 'bad', I'm only talking about the ones specific to the EU. Stories in the EU aren't about seedy siders, as much as they should be :p They're about the good guys trying to topple the bad guys, so seedy siders have to get onside or get out of the narrative.

    When the story is about seedy siders in particular, though, the story unfolds according to their whims.


    It would be hard to have an entirely, cold-hearted neutral character as your protagonist. If your lead character has no redeeming qualities, then nobody will want to read about him/her. Take Mal from Firefly. He's neutral, right. Works for whoever will hire him. But drat if he doesn't have a heart of gold concealed beneath that stony face so that the audience finds something worth loving about him.

    Going back to Lando - he would clearly be cast as unlikeable if he had been objective when weighing up his options. "You can have Han, Chewie and Leia for nothing. I'll even have Skywalker's x-wing impounded and hand him over on a platter. Just leave my business alone so I can continue to look after my best interests." But no. Instead, on the strength of Han's 'He's got no love of the Empire', Lando actually turns rebel and thumbs his nose at Vader.

    Then we get int
  23. Luton_Plunder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    I hate to double post, but thought I'd give the ol' Seedy Side a bump and see if there are any more takers for the discussion :)

    I refuse to believe we can exhaust the entire topic of 'loyalty' in the space of one page! :p
  24. Mjsullivan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 3
    Okay LP, I'll bite :p It's been way too long since I've posted on here anyway!

    I'll take it back to the topic of snitches though, as grey-sided loyalties seem to have been covered fairly extensively here. Snitches are a different matter entirely. They're usually looking out for themselves, true, but they have to tentatively align themselves with one party or the other. In the case of the big 2, if one was a Snitch for the Empire then they're not likely to get any jobs with the Rebellion in the future (after their snitch-status has been exposed, or their job is completed) unless they are a really, really good snitch.


    (Saying 'snitch' so much is making me feel dirty for some reason :p )

    So, while they would never claim to work for the Empire, they would by the process of elimination be aligned with the Empire. It gets more complicated when a snitch works between groups are neutral from the big 2. If you have a snitch for Xizor trying to infiltrate Talon Karrde's (Or at that time, Jorj Car'Das') organisation, then his alignment could change depending on which way the wind was blowing. All Karrde would need to do is offer up more credits than the other guy, and the Snitch would abide.

    I keep thinking of that scene from Firefly when Mal hires Jayne by outbidding the thugs that are trying to kill them. Jayne isn't the smartest guy in the 'verse but he knows his numbers (and apparently appreciates personal space :p ), and so his alignment changes. We see it later in the series switch back the other way when he tries to sell out River and Simon, but I think that's more a case of trying to outsmart everyone. In his eyes, claiming the bounty on River and Simon is doing both the Alliance and Mal a favour. He was hoping to come out of that one a hero, and well, look how it worked out :p

    I guess you could say people like that are loyal to money (though Jayne isn't the best example. He's much more loyal to Mal than he'd ever admit.) Me and Face collaborated on a fic a little while ago in which there are four gunslingers. Two of them fight for a modest fee on behalf of someone who needs protection. The other two are looking to claim a bounty from an obvious bad guy. In the end they all end up on the same side because, well, the other guy will pay them twice as much if they work together :p

    So there! My two cents on loyalty and credits in a galaxy that just don' care.
  25. Forcefire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2000
    star 4
    Boy, I'd better actually get around to the topic I suggested, huh? [face_blush]

    You know, I don't much like the word myself. "Rat" is much better to me, but then you have the question of whether you can say it in Star Wars. Womp rats might allow for it, I suppose.

    Lots of good thoughts here. I suppose the most prominent Star Wars rat is Garindan, the Mos Eisley alien who provides the stormtroopers with the heroes' location. He's barely in the movie, but you get to not liking him in that short time (or at least I did).

    This is the problem of the snitch. Assuming, as mjs points out, he's independent, he's arguably the most pure of the seedy side, concerned only with that which brings in the credits, brought in by cheating his coworkers. No loyalties, just selling what people need. We've shown that the seedy sider tends to require money to be effective, but there is a degree of stand-taking involved. Besides, selling out cohorts to get yourself ahead is bad business, because while trust is tenuous here, it's important to know what will push someone to the other side. I'm trying to decide what it is that makes the typical rat more unsavory than the lovable gun-for-hire, and I think it's because the rat is too secretive. Boba Fett, for example, walks tall. The rat cowers in the shadows.

    Was this coherent? I'm kind of just going with whatever springs to mind.

    Also, I had to look up Garindan's name on the databank. Am I losing my Star Wars cred?
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