Index The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - disc. crime lords)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by SeedySider, Dec 27, 2005.

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  1. 1Yodimus_Prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 4
    One reason snitches seem so much more despicable than the average seedy sider comes from the fact that they usually fall into 2 categories. Either they A) are too weak-willed to stand up for themselves while threatened, thus easily convinced to give up information (IE, they're grossly pathetic) or B) they are completely and absolutely impossible to trust in any situation whatsoever, no matter who you are.

    Both of these traits - on the surface at least - represent a form of selfishness that the average reader just can't abide. It's one thing to do stuff entirely for money, without thought for morality, and even backstabbing is allowable so long as there is a good or at least clever reason for it. But snitching requires taking a friendship and throwing it away for money, so's that someone else can do the backstabbing. There is very little glory in that. In fact, some would say it's downright cowardly. At least Lando involved himself in the setup, and had the steel to look Han in the face as it happened.

    A snitch is more like the mysterious Imperial who told the Bothan spy where the second Death Star was located. We'll never know who it was, and frankly, we don't want to know. You don't honor him because he did nothing honorable: he didn't put himself in any real danger, he was probably paid for it, and in the end, you know he'd do the same against you given the chance. In fact, he probably did. Those Bothans had to die somehow, right? But through it all, the snitch never chased anyone down, never fought for his life, never pulled a trigger, never held his ground against all odds...or even a few odds. All he did was make a simple choice that shattered the trust between him, and the people who trusted him most.


    It would be really hard to sympathize with that.

    REALLY hard.
  2. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    I don't know hard it would be to not sypmathize with such a character. Imagine you're a member of Jabba's court that stands before him, being questioned about who stole all his tree-frog munchies, and you know what lays beneath the grated floor beneath you. The natural instinct of self-preservation is hard to argue against.

    Also, consider yourself a Rebel conspirator, and the Imperial interogator holds your child, with a deadly weapon in hand. Even the logic that you will both be killed anyway, and that the movement should be bigger than you is prevelant; it's hard for someone in that position to decide what is the "right thing". Granted, the parent isn't probably much of a "seedy-sider" per-say, but I think arguements can be made for snitches of circumstance.

    Although, it does lead me to question the individual(s) who gave up to Vader and the Emperor the name of the Rebel's new goldenboy Luke Skywalker somewhere between ANH and ESB. [face_thinking]

  3. The_Face Ex-Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Why hello there old thread! Seedy_Sider? That?s a name I haven?t heard in a long time? :p

    Dorothea hits a good point. Traitors among the heroes (or as close as we get to them in the Seedy Side) quite simply make for good storytelling possibilities. The reveal is always such a fun scene to write (hooray for plot twists!). The instant shift in relationships among the characters is the stuff of drama, and usually makes a nice segue into explosions and shooting at folk. Wins all around for the readers! ;)

    LP has also hit on a good point ? about the EU. When you work an underworld character into an otherwise mythic good vs. evil tale, the scoundrel tends to take either a turn for the heroic or for the villainous. Generally heroic, because they?re likeable, and audience expectations dictate that likeable people be heroes. That?s why Han Solo saves the day. Because we liked him, he had a heart of gold. If he?d been slimier, he might have handed Luke over to the Empire and met his just end aboard an exploding spaceship, or something. And Boba Fett did mean things, so he got tossed into a big mouth. :p

    When you?re writing your own story, however ? particularly a story in which the underworld is the focus and good vs. evil the sidefight ? you can change, toy with, subvert, destroy those expectations. Put your own spin on things. I like that because then when Mr. Karrde decides he?ll help the good guys out after all, it feels more satisfying.

    The first two seasons of 24 (the only two I?ve seen), Casino Royale, the Tycho story, all examples of treachery (or not) used to good effect. The PotC series has a lot of backstabbing and deal-making as well.

    Getting deep and meta with this storytelling vs. realism thing here? I like it! :D

    Mjs! To what do we owe the pleasure? ;)

    I hadn?t thought of For Hire (the collab Mjs is referring to here) for this topic, but I guess it does make sense. Those untrustworthy characters of ours. But they all have those redeeming qualities that transcend their seedy nature. Despite the things he?d do for credits, I don?t see Alias selling Messuni to those who would kill her. Even though he seemed largely unconcerned about Eva killing her. [face_thinking]

    It seems to me there has to be some sliver of trust, of assurance that your ally will stay your ally, at least until the end of the job. If there weren?t, if you truly trusted no one (as the X-files advises ;)), you would have to be completely alone and self-sufficient. Pretty much impossible for a man (or Twi?lek or Wookiee) to be an island in the underworld. Even Boba Fett relies on the person hiring him to pay up when he delivers the bounty-head, dead, alive, or disintegrated. If they don?t, he probably shoots them and takes his money. So his intimidation factor is his leverage in gaining that ?trust?. Even loyalty is a bargain-able (making up words here) issue. It comes down to who has the most leverage, I suppose.

    And there?s your reputation too (touching on some of what Forcefire said here). Once you?re a rat, you?re a rat. People won?t want you in on their heist when you left the last group standing dumbfounded in the dead end alley with the police spotlight on them while you bounded away with the prize. Why hire her? She?s a liability. People don?t pay liabilities, unless they?re desperate and your rates are cheap. But that means you?re not making much scratch, so there you go.

    Forcefire, I didn?t know that guy?s name. Or that he had one. Was there a Tale about him? Seems like there shoulda been, since he?s the ?background? character who actually plays a role in the movie. What does Max Rebo affect? Nothing, but providing good tunes.

    I believe it was Mal Reynolds who said, ?If you?re gonna stab me in the back, have the guts to do it to my face.? Maybe it was ?shoot.? At any rate, it was funny, and true. Seedy siders tend to create their own moral spectrums within ea
  4. The_Face Ex-Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Sorry I've been slacking on this thread. I've a couple fics for addition to the index soon, and I am working on something special and a little different for our next topic. [face_mischief]
  5. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    I like the topic, though I find it difficult. In a place where money buys loyalty, the lines are always so blurry.[face_hypnotized]
    Where does betrayal start? And from whose PoV?
    Maybe my charcters just are not loyal enough to anyone/anything but themselves to really betray someone.[face_thinking]
  6. Luton_Plunder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    Face, what's this? Special and a little different?

    You know us Seedy Siders are suspicious of anything of the sort!

    Unless it's credits. Is it credits?


    MsLanna - Maybe my charcters just are not loyal enough to anyone/anything but themselves to really betray someone.

    Thats actually a really interesting notion - characters that can't betray anyone because they aren't in anyone's good grace enough to gain trust in the first place. Maybe true seedy characters aren't able to betray people because, like you say, there's no loyalty in the first place.
  7. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    Don't be so suspicious, Luton, special is goo. think of special sauce on fries, special treatment in hotels (not by crime lords:p) and, um, well being special?
    Special credits would be nice, too...

    I thought about the betrayal. In an upcoming fic the protagonist gets hired and then changes sides just for the credits of it. (Come on double of what you get for letting that be and do the other???[face_money_eyes] ) It's not her fault that the new mission is the termination of the old employer. But the only thing she really thinks about is how to get both jobs done and getting paid twice....[face_money_eyes][face_idea][face_money_eyes]

    I think real trust is rare on the seedy side, but then the betrayal would be all the more painful.[face_thinking]
    Could somebody please do something about those bunnies over there?[face_worried]
    I must be gone....

  8. Luton_Plunder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3


    This sounds like the very essence of Seedy-Sidery :D Let us know when we are able to get our eyes on it!

    (I was going to edit out the way the smileys translate using copy and paste, but for some reason I think they make a kind of poetical sense there :p )

  9. Onoto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 5
    Betrayal and loyalty factors prominently in my newest story. It's about two criminals on Nar Shaddaa who rob a very secure bank. I think that's enough information to explain why loyalty comes up. It was a lot of fun, and I look forward to writing more underworld type fics.
  10. Luton_Plunder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    Onoto, you weren't joking about the betrayal factor in that one :D

    Great addition to our seedy tradition (tangent: do seedy siders often rhyme? Face? Mj? Ale?). I would recommend sending a PM the way of SeedySider and putting it in the index, if you haven't already done ;)
  11. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    do seedy siders often rhyme?

    Well, Luton, our names obviously don't rhyme. I challenge anybody, though, to try and write a poem with all rhmye words having to be seedy sider user names.:p

    Apart from that I like poetry and rhymes. I'm suspicious of rhyme, though, since it is often abuse to label something poetry just because of rhymes. IMO, there's more to it, or at least should be.

    I'm off working on that name-poem now.:p
  12. Luton_Plunder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    [face_laugh] Lanna, there's fabled LP©? points* on offer for that poem!






    *Please note these points are useless in almost every capacity. They're like having Imperial credits on an Alliance planet.
  13. Onoto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 5
    There once was a user named Plunder,
    Who did make a serious blunder.
    He wrote about crime,
    And in a short time,
    A pile of fics he was under.
  14. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    No, no no, Onoto, ALL ryhme words.

    Meaning, if you wanted to rhyme Luton_Plunder,
    maybe with someone from down under,
    but you need a real user name and so
    you're out of the poety game, Onoto.:p

  15. Onoto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 5
    If I could think of something that rhymes with MsLanna besides banana, I'd write a witty poem in response.
  16. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    I don't think this is the thread to battle and dis each other poetry style anyway, onoto.
    I don't think there IS such a thread.;)

    Banana, hmm.[face_thinking]
    If you slurr it a little everything ending on '-er' might do.
  17. VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 8
    Okay, I need to hang out in this thread more often! :p
  18. Luton_Plunder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2006
    star 3
    You guys amaze me :D

    Apparently seedy siders do rhyme, and in typical seedy fashion they have rhyme battles :p Somewhere, Boba Fett is crying at what has become of his kind.

    So I say to Onoto,
    and to you MsLanna:
    Remember that rhyming,
    is always bad karma. [face_shame_on_you]


    MamaVader (if I might call you that :p ), welcome to the Seedy Side. Where you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and wordsmithery!
  19. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
  20. Onoto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 5
    I made up a silly limerick to tease ol' Futon,
    But soon I found that my advantage was gone.
    MsLanna responsded and whittled me down to my proper size,
    And a suitable response I could not devise
    So I am beaten; you are the victor, MsLanna.
    Now I shall split, just like a banana.
  21. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    I cannot believe it has come to this
    the Seedy Siders do battle and dis
    each other in very polished rhyme
    while in the corner Fett is cryin'
    but with Onoto like a banana split
    I think there's no fun left in it.:(




    ...and now for something completely different. I think we had a topic somewhere.
    *goes looking for topic*
  22. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    ^ o_O

    I think Face was gonna come up with something new and big... something that's hopefully farthest away from rhymes possible.
  23. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    The_Face actually referred me to this thread
    hopefully I'll put some life in it when you all think it's dead.
    I've recently explored hard-boiled fiction
    due to some creative prediliction
    unfortuntately no one had commented so far
    you can find it posted here, The Seventh Star

    Whew! That was an effort all that rhyming, anyone else going to come in and talk about hard-boiled? Have you guys set up like PI agencies in SW with your OCs? How did you go about it?
  24. The_Face Ex-Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    You people are all quite mad. ;)

    Welcome to the Seedy Side, Katana_Geldar! Good question, let's discuss it.

    "It's a Bitter Little World"

    Hard-boiled noir and detective mysteries are firmly within the Seedy Side scope. Raymond Chandler may not have written any EU novels, but this is fanfiction, so we can do it for him.

    What's the place of the P.I. in the underworld and in the GFFA? How do you reconcile the classic "hard-boiled" tone with the Star Wars setting? What are some challenges, advantages, and strategies for writing in that style? These are all just to get your mind going, please also address Katana's specific questions and ask some of your own. :)


    I'll be back with my contribution but others can start if they'd like. P- please?

    EDIT: Oh, also, if you'd like to discuss detective fiction further, there's a good thread here talking about it right now.
  25. MsLanna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2005
    star 6
    I'll get some thoughts together, if somebody tells me what P.I is.[face_blush]
    In general, I'm not a fan of detective stories, and what exactly does 'hard-boiled' refer to? The tone? The worldview behind it? The way the things in the story work? Is it an attitude?:confused:
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