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Senate The Senate is splitting off

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by SuperWatto, Jul 24, 2013.

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  1. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    So, because the mods were feeling too lazy to keep up with active threads, and instead of stepping down and letting people who were up for the job step in, you opted to effectively shut the senate down.
     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Well I kind of read it as "separating the wheat from the chaff was exhausting". Fair enough, but if there's sufficient forethought into the matter then really, it shouldn't be an issue.

    1) Other mods would still be able to help
    2) Expectations would, in theory, be set

    The big issue then is a lack of reformist mentality. The Community-wide merger was a known quantity, and instead of preparing for it nothing was done. When it became apparent that people weren't keen on essay style posts the Senate ran away.

    Can someone give me a compelling argument as to why the Senate shouldn't reform (you're all mostly progressive in name at least; why so conservative here?) and move back into Community as a new beast?
     
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    A Senate with ten people or a Senate with twenty people, really - it's all the same to me.
    I'm fine with anything, as long as I don't have to have this discussion for the fith time in a year.
    Call me lazy.

    So I suggest that this time, you talk to DarthBoba.
     
  4. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Ender Sai , wocky tried to get a comms discussion going, but it fizzled out pretty quickly.
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/senate-proposed-rules-revision.50013899/

    I just think, "Nobody wants to deal with a JCC senate" is a weak reason to split off. Like I said, if the mods are too burned out to deal with it, other people who would be willing and able could and would step up and do it. I said earlier that I've always been more of a senate reader than poster, but the truth is, when senate threads were in community, I posted in them much more frequently... and the same goes for several people, I'm sure.
     
  5. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    And why do you think that is?
     
  6. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Inclusivity.
     
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  7. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    They did, harps, and that's my point.

    More alert spam for DarthBoba

    It's fine that the Senate once stood for a certain thing. Totally fine. Utterly fine. I realise this, and as I was a moderator for 3 years in this very forum I completely understand what that something was.

    But note the key tense of the verb "is" - the past tense.

    The Senate needs to be like Porsche. Bought by Audi, made profitable by diluting the brand but keeping the core identity - performance, engineering excellence - at the heart.

    Look at what you got from when Porsche radically altered - not just the flagship 911, but the GTS; Cayenne; Panamera; Cayman, and Boxter. Sales grow in all models including the 911. They didn't start making plastic-y cheap cars; they just evolved into something new.

    But the Senate? A metaphorical mahogany panelled club of a half dozen, mostly white men with bushy mustaches discussing how treacherous the Americans were with Suez.

    It's time to move on. Hell, I'll even do the new framework for you.
     
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  8. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Just for the record, I do not have a bushy mustache, even in Movember.
     
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  9. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    That's not a Senate post, LoH.
     
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  10. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I've re-awakened the Comms discussion.
     
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  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Jabba-wocky - FYI.

    Guys if you have a strong argument in favour of the Senate remaining as is, I ask you please to state the case in Comms where it might be seen.
     
  13. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Nothing is stopping people from coming here, other than laziness in clicking two extra links to get out of JCC and come to this page. If the posting standards here really aren't as high as we like to think they are, then there's no reason why anyone would have to be afraid to post here. I don't get it. On the one hand, you're implying that we are too exclusive and that intimidates non-regulars from posting. On the other you're saying that we're oblivious to the fact that our posts are actually ****. If they're ****, then nothing's stopping anyone else from coming here and sharing the ****. You're more than welcome. Bring your ****.
     
  14. Zapdos

    Zapdos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2013
    nah, i don't think people stay out of here because of the two clicks. it's rather because it gives the feeling of a fenced off area where there is zero wiggle room for posting. having it included in the jcc could help make it seem more open and available to all posters. that doesn't have to ruin the srs bsns.

    edit: i see you've added to your post. still.
     
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  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Thanks for letting me know about this discussion. I'm really encouraged to see so many others concerned about improving this, though sad to see that things have turned out so (predictably) poorly. The only thing I can to what Vivec and Ender laid out is that for all the insistence SuperWatto had that he was trying to save the Senate, he's never looked at whether he was successful or not.

    I'd say no. Vivec described something that is nothing like the old Senate. That's already dead. I don't know what this new thing is, and I don't really see how it's distinct from the JCC. Especially given that so little justification for the move was given before hand, I'd really like to hear what supporters think they have accomplished with it now that it's been in place for several months, and how this actually represents a separate forum or culture.
     
  16. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Well, to put it very shortly:
    Right now I just wrote a post where all I wrote was "I lol'd." I would never do that here. That's basically the difference.
     
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  17. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    What, that you'd make a post? Yes, traffic is down here, we know... :p
     
  18. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Violent Violet Menace: Exactly. What you all seem to be ignoring is that JCC posting style =/= Senate posting style. It's fine that nobody replies for a while here; we went ahead with the split expecting that, because that's how old Senate was. The JCC is fast paced and usually reactionary; Senate isn't.
     
  19. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Yeah, I agree. I don't mind that traffic is low either. If you mind, then post something. That's the easiest solution. Contribute. But the people who actually use the Senate don't seem to mind the slow pace. Otherwise they would have voiced their concern during the months that we've been out of the JCC. Apart from Ender Sai, the only people I've seen complain so far are people who never post here.
     
  20. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    But how much distance is there between that and posting "Uhmm. . .Marvel?" as someone did in the Republican Party thread recently? I don't really see it.

    EDIT: You guys aren't addressing one of the main new points that have been raised. It's not just that the posting is slow. It's that the posts aren't long, aren't detailed, and often aren't substantive. All of which were supposed to be the reasons for preserving the Senate. What is this even about anymore?
     
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  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    With due respect, Boba, we asked for a compelling argument and that is not one.

    Moreover, I think this discussion now needs to move to Comms. This is not and should not be a decision for the absolute minority of Senate regulars and mods to decide. The boards moved onto a new model with the move, and change requires adaptability. You guys have failed to adapt. Amph continues to strive and have threads on the front page; so does Arena. The only thing impeding the Senate from fitting in is a rose-tinted nostalgia for the past and because this affects the whole community, it needs to be a community discussion. Not just one for the conservatives in the Senate.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001


    Yeah but they would if this place wasn't so stuffy and elitist. And please don't tell me it's not, that it's just a higher standard - bull. The rules today, they're a reworded variant of the ones I wrote. I know what the Senate is, and it's not that anymore. It's like the place is covered in cobwebs, dusty, and water damage but between cataracts and myopia people only see the grand spectacle it used to be.
     
  23. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I'd say the distance between a) holding off on posting because you don't have a solid answer yet and b) posting because you feel you should reply quickly is rather a large one, TBH.

    The biggest problem moderators were having was active hostility towards Senate-style posting in JCC; users would actively try to derail threads tagged Senate. Lowie largely quit specifically because of that, and SW, as he described above, was also on the edge of quitting. The "tagging" method of segregating threads doesn't really work terribly well when there's two distinct posting styles going on from a moderator point of view, and that's the problem with the Senate staying in JCC: enforcing Senate rules was largely a notional, hour to hour series of actions in JCC.
     
  24. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    I don't get where this perception of stuffy and elitist comes from. I mean, you're the ones who keep bringing up all the examples of our posts being no different from JCC posts, and that they're unsubstantive. Surely, that would imply that we're laid back. And it's funny to hear complaints about elitism coming from you, the guy who insults the entire family tree of random people because they have bad taste in music. I think you're talking about yourself. [face_laugh]
     
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  25. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I'd really love to see you explain how we're "elitist" and the JCC is not when the primary reason for Welcome New Users existing is people feeling uncomfortable getting directly involved with the JCC and its cliques and personal relationships.
     
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