Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Nov 16, 2009.
Well, GL did OK Palpatine being the villain in Dark Empire.
GL has consistently been ok with ressurection.
Prior to recent discoveries, these two 'post-ROTJ' developments seemed to be part of the earlier 12-part serial vision, something which was distinct from the 9-episode trilogy of trilogies - however, that 12-episode outline turned up by Rinzler seems to have blurred the two a bit. As per usual, no dates or many details on the document, which makes it extremely difficult to place in context.
Although it's not completely logical in terms of timeframe (Eps VII-IX being set approximately 20-40 years after ROTJ), it is quite possible that part of the Sequel Trilogy's plot (as GL vaguely pictured it) would have been looking for his mysterious sister on the other side of the galaxy, and perhaps defeating the Emperor at the very end - although my own theory is that the Master of the Sith might have still been a separate character to Palpatine, & would have been the villain defeated at the very end.
But yeah, it's not really the case that Eps VI-IX were distilled into one film (ROTJ), as is often believed - what very little is known about the ST is that it would have been directly about the rebuilding of the Republic, not merely the end of the Empire. This has been covered pretty thoroughly by the EU, I'm at a bit of a loss to imagine what the actual new films in development will be about.
The 'Rebuilding of the Republic' plot is out the window, due to the time after ROTJ the ST is set.
We don't know how long after it's set yet though, right? They haven't officially said, as far as I know...
Well, assuming the Big 3 are in them we can safely say about 30 years later.
As to whether or not it'd feature the rebuilding of the Republic-why not? We were still pretty young as a nation 30 years after the American Revolution. Definitely weren't a world power or anything.
If the Master of the Sith was a separate character, that's a major clue as to the upcoming trilogy.
Not really. Early drafts of SW refer to Vader being the servant of a Master of the Sith (or Bogan), and the character is definitely separate to the Emperor, who was merely a crooked politician, albeit a powerful one. This master never actually appears.
He's not a separate character anymore, though, the two were effectively merged in ESB, when the Emperor was first portrayed as a Dark Side adept - the PT confirmed 100% that Palpatine was a/the Sith Master.
My own theory is that maybe GL first came up with a vague idea for the ST involving this separate Master of the Sith before he'd committed to merging him with Palps. It's more speculation than anything else, and unfortunately completely redundant in terms of the upcoming films.
Adventures of the Starkiller
The Star Wars - From the Adventures of Luke Starkiller
Incidentally, 'Prince Valorum' was the name of the Sith Knight in the Rough (First) Draft.* 'Darth Vader' in that draft was an Imperial officer similar to Tarkin or Jerjerrod - a completely different character to the Sith Lord with the same name in later drafts.
It's worth mentioning that Vader is referred to in the opening scroll of the Fourth Draft (and the revised fourth draft, i.e. the shooting script) as the 'Right Hand of the Emperor', rather than this Sith Master. It doesn't necessarily mean that Palps & the Sith Master had yet been merged, but it certainly meant this other character was out of the picture for the time being, and it perhaps indicates GL was already toying with the notion.
The Emperor in Leigh Brackett's draft of ESB is portrayed as having at least some knowledge of the Force, and Vader is in fear of him. The final film pretty much cements the Emperor as being Vader's master, in the context of both being users of the Dark Side.
*The Rough & First Drafts of SW are virtually identical, the only real difference is that completely different names are used for most characters & places. The Rough Draft uses the more familiar names.
The first draft sure was strange.
It was ESB that established Palpatine to be a force-user.
I'm pretty sure that when ESB was released, there was supposed to be a total of nine episodes with Palps's defeat being in IX.
That's something Gary Kurtz claimed - his recollections can be a bit muddled. It's most likely he was recalling an earlier vision (approx 1978-early 1979) which would have had 12 episodes, in which the Emperor would have been defeated in the final episode, i.e. Episode XII.
The timeframe of this 12-part serial would have almost entirely been about the OT era, with a small handful of one-off episodes set in different time periods, as opposed to three trilogies set approximately 20 years apart.
As I mentioned above, however, the distinction between the 12-part serial vision & the 9-episode 'trilogy of trilogies' looks to have been a bit more blurred than was previously thought. It's really confusing stuff, even more so recently - take a look through the whole thread & it might make things a bit clearer (or it might just give you a headache - we're trying to piece together a fictional history that kept changing, parts of which were abandoned, a lot of which has been officially denied, and has now suddenly been brought back).
There's also this old thread about the various accounts of Gary Kurtz, BTW:
Mmm...we really ought to write all this stuff down in a google doc or something for public reference.
Agreed. I'll sift through what's relevant, assemble the various quotes & so on, then I'll PM it to you (maybe just sticky a locked thread?). I figure any commentary should be kept to a minimum - a great deal of it comes down to personal interpretation, although by the same token, the context in which such quotes were made are crucial. I'll see what I can come up with.
Give me a bit of time, though, I'm back at work tomorrow, and after a less-than-relaxing 'break', I'll be sailing into a @#$%storm of monumental proportions...
That sounds good. Think you could maybe get it to me by the 20th or so? Gonna be quite occupied as of the 23d.
Will do. Can always be updated/corrected where needed - with Rinzler's Making of ROTJ & 'Episode VII' on the way, I can see a heap of newly-discovered material cropping up over the next few months, just to mess with our heads.
Should be OK - as long as Mark Hamill keeps his 'revelations' to a minimum, anyway.
Yep. Totally off-topic here, but google docs is something this forum needs to think about more often.
Isn't anything we've said pretty much already collected in TSHoSW (minus the notes on those yellow pads, and maybe the bits on Bunden Debannen, etc)? It's been quite a while since I've read it but I can remember having "revelations" about the creative development only to find that zombie had already noticed and written out such things, years before.
TSHoSW covers about 80-90% of such stuff - however, Rinzler's Making of ESB came out later & included some additional material that threw things into utter confusion (the 5-episode prequel plan, & the extended version of the original exchange about the 9-ep plan between GL & Alan Arnold, which alters the context somewhat), plus there's a few other bits & pieces that simply weren't included. Then there's the second part of the saga outline that Rinzler recently released, Gary Kurtz's 2010 interview with the LA Times etc.
zombie's structure is still somewhat intact, at a fundamental level, but more recent discoveries have complicated matters even further & cast a good few aspects in a new light. The yellow notepads really do blur the distinction between the 12-part serial & 9-episode trilogy of trilogies.
I don't suppose you have next weeks lottery numbers by any chance?
I remember having this argument with my fiancee. I had a feeling GL was building up to a ST. But that announcement still caught me cold, I'm so stoked about this. Oh and 44 when the film comes out!
I only skipped around in this thread so forgive me if this has been asked and I missed it, but is there anything in the historical record to confirm or refute the story that went around back when the Thrawn Trilogy books came out that they incorporated unused story notes for the third trilogy?
Going with no. Lucas actually shot down at least one aspect of the Zahn trilogy-the Noghri/Sith duality.
Not to mention that SHoSW costs money.