The Seven Forms Of Lightsabre Combat: If anyone besides me cares...

That's awesome! I've always been interested in the forms of lightsaber dueling, especially that of Dooku and Windu. Thanks!

 

^^No prob. They're my favs too along with Form V

 

I wanna see more Form V *whine whine*...oh wait, Jedi don't have whiners . And not just DV stuff, but different things, there has got to be more too it.

Ciou-See the Sig

 

Form V in the hands of big DV is the greatest sabre-duling form of all IMO. Especially when he's one-arming Luke all over the placce. He looks even more graceful than Dooku with Form II there, IMO.

 

I agree somewhat with DamonD.
OB1 uses a form three technique at first, holding up the blade and letting the force guide the lightning to it. The Blade is the center of the stance, and so will it be against lightning, as that is a potential force attack. And since the blade can as seen in AOTC, is it fair to assume that this skill also be used in theother forms?
kenobi then chooses form VI to get some time, why he does that I don´t know, but either way I agree he is trying to stall as much as possible, to get anakin back on his feet, as that perhaps a part of the training. Of course the defence or antidote, can only be used perhaps when the lightning is not being thrown at you. Maybe that is a skill that the Jedi could excel in as well?

Also of some note, Windu´s style is close to that of the Sith





DD - Style VIII: The Spliff technique. Mastered so far only by the illustrous Darth Dane

 

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! I never seriously imagined that there would be so many diffrent things to a lightsaber. How did ya get intrested in this?

 

^^I've always loved the lightsabre duels in all the films. When i read about this I was so excuted, I felt like a damn schoolboy! It gives such great insight into the different duels! Very cool stuff!

 

Just wondering how Qui Gon gets charactarized as using From IV? It seems to me he used allot of III in TPM, more controlled and defensive? By the way, love this thread!

 

excellent thread, you don't know how many times i could have used something like thisas a referance. I am also fascinated by the saber duels. One question, form VI seems basicly to be the style of weak jedi, is this a correct assumption? Can you explain form VI a little more. And what do you see Palpatine using(if he picks up a saber, although he probably wont) Great Thread!

 

This is an excellent thread!

I have always been interested in the different lightsaber forms too, and loved the article about them in the Insider.

I have a few questions to ask though...

First, do you think that if Yoda and Dooku had continued to fight in AOTC, would Yoda and his form IV style have eventually prevailed over the form II technique of Dooku, even though his form is naturally better suited to lightsaber combat?

Also, which of the seven forms are the most graceful and have flowing, chained attacks? I would think that form II and form IV would, and I'm not sure about form III.

Once again, this is a superb thread.

 

Well, all the Forms information was taken from Star Wars Insider. So, I hope Darth-Abbadon won't mind if I try to answer these...

Form VI is a very passive lightsabre form. It basically encapsulates aspects of Form II, III, and IV I believe. It was thought to be a good choice, therefore, for many Jedi around the time of the PT to learn. However, the problem was that this meant Form VI lacked sufficient mastery in any one form - jack of all trades, but master of none, as the old saying goes. It's nicknamed the 'diplomat's form' because learning this style freed up Jedi to learn more about the way of mediation and diplomacy. In the more passive times of the pre-Empire Republic, most Jedi brushed up on these skills but used Form VI as a kind of general basing for using a lightsabre, rather than going into more in-depth training.

If Palpatine ever uses a sabre, I personally see him as the galaxy's best ever Form II user. I can just picture him fighting one-handed, never needing to move much and certainly never resorting to flips and somersaults. A Jedi's Form usually relates to some aspect of their personality, and the cool, calculating mentality of Palpatine would make him an awesome lightsabre duellist.

If Yoda and Dooku had continued their AOTC duel, Yoda would've beaten Dooku. Dooku has several decade's worth of experience, but Yoda has several hundred year's worth! Dooku was close to being worn down in their duel, and Yoda would've had too much stamina and pace for Dooku in the end.

Finally, I think Form II has the most graceful style, but Form IV allows more in the way of chained attacks. Form III is graceful in its own way, too, in a much more defensive way. Form V is all about power, and Form VII is usually more unpredictable than graceful.

 

Well, all the Forms information was taken from Star Wars Insider. So, I hope Darth-Abbadon won't mind if I try to answer these...

By all means! My throat was getting a little tired any ways.

Just wondering how Qui Gon gets charactarized as using From IV? It seems to me he used allot of III in TPM, more controlled and defensive?

This is the only flaw I found in the Forms, in as much as Jinns style did not seem to conform to his Form. However, I think most of it can be atributed to the fact that even though he had been practicing it for many years he had not come anywhere near the mastery Yoda had, therefore he anad Kenobi's (TPM) styles were not the same as Yoda's. But if you look carefulyy they both did a lot of spinning and flipping (ie. Kenobi's initial flip and twirl over Maul). As for the defensive aspect of his style, I think he was just faced with a strong opponent. He was up against Maul who had a) youth b)an odd style and c) an unfamiliar weapon. I think Qui-Gon was mearly being cautious.


Now, on to the matter of Dooku/Yoda battle. This is where I difer slightly from DamonD's assesment. Yes I believe in the long run yoda would have won, since he had the edge over Dooku in his better mastery over the force. BUT, I would like to play Devil's Advocate on this one. Here's a coiple of points toward Dooku's favor over the Force.

- The Dark Side - Yes Yoda is obviously the most powerful Jedi, but Dooku had the Dark side as an ally. And a powerful ally it is . We were led to believe Dooku was always a very powerful apprentice to Yoda. His prized pupil. So how powerful was he? If someone as powerful as Yoda took him on as a padawan, does that mean Dooku neared Yoda's level in the Force department? That coupled with the energies of the Dark Side might make Dooku quite formidable.

- Form II - It's what it was made for. Dooku is considered a complete master of this Form, making him an expert duelist. Against a normal Form IV weilder he would have no problem. How would he fare against a master of this Form? Even when the opponent was a complete master of it, would it still edge out over Form II?

- Confidence - Okay this is pretty lame, but still, he had just gone up against a punk padawan, and he had to actually work to beat him. A padawan! If I thought of myself as a master over a Form such as his own, and I almost (read: slim chance) was defeated by some, cocky, headstrong, upstart, wouldn't I be a little worried about facing a 900 year old jedi master?

- Rustiness? - How long had it been since Yoda used his lightsabre? In the TPM VD it said he hadn't used it for many years. Would that make him a little rusty with it? Dooku had already had sufficient warm up with the other two Jedi, so he was ready to G.O. in the words of SLJ.


Oh well, I'd like to hear anybody's comments on my points. Just tryin to start a good debate

 

I would have to disagree with Darth Abbadon in regards to the Yoda/Dooku Duel and who would win in the end, if the duel was allowed to be fought to the death. It seems to me that Dooku's II mastery might have gotten the better of Yoda in the end. Notice Dooku's confidence when he says, "but our skills with a lightsaber." Dooku knows he's the better swordsman, and it's my belief that one of the reasons he merely "escaped" was that he had orders from his master, and those orders were not to kill Yoda. Sidious wants total revenge against the Jedi, and total power, and perhaps Dooku was under strict orders to "save the surprise" so to speak. Also, Dooku being Yoda's padawan he would have practiced dilligently knowing his masters form, and prepared for it like we saw in the duel.

 

Great Points Meshiak!

Like I said, I don't think it's as easy as " Yoda would have won because he is Yoda and he's the master" I think there were a lot of extranious variables to take into account.

 

DamonD you wrote that A Jedi's Form usually relates to some aspect of their personality, and the cool, calculating mentality of Palpatine would make him an awesome lightsabre duellist. I absolutly agree with your assessment of what Sid's probable lightsaber technique would be. However, I am indeed curious...if a Jedi's lightsaber style is indicitive of his personality, then how is Yoda's acrobatic form IV style representative to his personality? Just wondering.

As for who would have ended up winning in the Dooku v. Yoda duel, here's my opinion...

I think that Yoda would have won his fight against Dooku eventually. Actually, I believe that Yoda's victory was immenent right before Dooku decided to take a tactical retreat. Why do I think this? Well, first off, I think that Yoda was better versed in his style of dueling than Dooku was in his, since Yoda had had over 800 years to study form IV and Dooku maybe had about 85 years to study form II. Now if Yoda was fighting someone who had studied form II for as long as he had studied form IV, it might be a different story. Also, while Dooku did have the dark side of the Force to aid him in battle, earlier in their encounter, Yoda had already proven that he could nullify any Force attack that Dooku could throw at him. Furthermore, Dooku seemed determined to prove that his new found darkside abilities made him more powerful than any Jedi. Yoda was widely regarded by Sith and Jedi alike to be the most powerful Jedi at the time of AOTC, and I believe that if Dooku saw even the slightest chance that he could defeat his former master and thereby cement himself as being more powerful than any Jedi, I think he would have pressed on with his attack. In my mind atleast, his retreating proves that he knew he could not defeat Yoda, and he therefore retreated to fight another day. Finally, and I know this is a stretch, but Yoda saying "Fought well you have" and then Dooku replying with a stubborn "This is only the beginning" right before dropping the crane makes me think that both of them knew that their duel was nearing its end and that Yoda was about to take care of business.

 

the whole duel is hard to judge. We all love yoda and know he can throw down with the best, but using form 2, dooku put down every move yoda had, and used half the energy. I think whether it had been 20 seconds or 20 hours there would have been no clear winner, the way they master the forms is just such a stale mate.

 

As for the question of Dooku vs. Yoda...I think that in the end Dooku would've had the victory. Evidence? OK:

-Look at Yoda. He's flipping all over the place because he has to; he's half the height of his opponent, and thus has perhaps half the reach. In a sabre duel, especially against a fencer, reach is everything. I saw Yoda try to close on Dooku to get into position for a crippling/killing blow at least three times, and none of those attempts worked, obviously.
-Look at Dooku. He doesn't seem at all worn down, even after dealing with a hyperactive Muppet on speed. He deals with Yoda's attempts to get into position for a killing/crippling blow easily, and doesn't seem to be losing, at least to me.
-Also:

-Yoda misses a chance for a backhand shot at Dooku's head when he jumps onto the wing of Dooku's ship. Both me and another swordfighting-knowledgeable guy saw this.
-Dooku clearly is every bit as quick as Yoda; Yoda even acknowledges this; if you lookat it differently, Dooku's line "This is just the beginning!" could be a taunt to Yoda, stating that Dooku can defeat him, but is choosing not to for whatever reason.

Opinions?

 

I said usually, YodaJediMaster12
I would've had Yoda down as a Form III kinda guy, but I guess the ILM guys just wanted to have fun with him.

 

What is Yoda´s last comment before they part?



DD - Style VIII: The Spliff technique. Mastered so far only by the illustrous Darth Dane

 

What is Yoda´s last comment before they part?

Uhhh, are you really asking or is that rhetorical? Sorry to be stupid but I was bit confuzzled

Also, while Dooku did have the dark side of the Force to aid him in battle, earlier in their encounter, Yoda had already proven that he could nullify any Force attack that Dooku could throw at him

Indeed he did, YodaJediMaster12, but there many other tricks up a sith's sleeve. . During a battle a sith will commonly try to defeat a Jedi from within, breaking his spirit. Vader did it and according to the VD Dooku did it to Kenobi too. This is a very strong weapon, since the sith can cause misfeelings in the Jedi suck as doubt or a lack of confidence. Also Dooku could use the power of the dark side in the diel as well. If you've read the novelization there is a point in the Anakin/Dooku duel when Anakin creates a sort of Force wall so it would be harder for Dooku to attack him. Almost like a force shield. Dooku could obviously use this type of manuver as an offense, perhaps not allowing Yoda to parry and giving Dooku an open spot to attack. I doubt Yoda would use this, however, because that type of thing is usually frowned upon by the Jedi. They aren't supposed to kick or punch their opponents or use the force in an offensive way (such as maul's force push or his many kicks to kenobi's face). While this loose "rule" is usually disregarded (such as Qui-Gon's little "love tap" on Maul in TPM), I would think a Jedi of Yoda's calibur would hold those beliefs in the highest honor.

Yoda was widely regarded by Sith and Jedi alike to be the most powerful Jedi at the time of AOTC, and I believe that if Dooku saw even the slightest chance that he could defeat his former master and thereby cement himself as being more powerful than any Jedi, I think he would have pressed on with his attack.

Well, he might have not seen an open door, but neither did Yoda necessarily

Here's a cool thing to do: Try watching different people during the duel. With all that action goin gon at one time it's hard to decipher whats going on so what I do is I watch it all the way through keeping my eyes solely on Dooku and his movements, actions, etc. Then I watch the duel again keeping my eyes on Yoda. It's really interesting because when YOu look at Dooku it looks like he is reatreating and not making any attacks, but if you look at Yoda it looks like he's just spinning around for no reason and none of his attacks are getting through.

Another point - Energy - Even though Yoda was letting the Force do most of the work, he was expelling an enormous amount of energy. Dooku on the other hand, while no slouch himself, was making wide sweeping strokes of the blade, using a lot of wrist movements. The question is how long could Yoda keep up what he was doing?

Again this is all harmless debate since we will never really know what would happen, but I'm just putting two different sides to the arguement.

 

Yoda misses a chance for a backhand shot at Dooku's head when he jumps onto the wing of Dooku's ship.

I am not entirely sure if it was ever Yoda's intent to kill Dooku. IMO, Yoda simply wanted to disarm and disable his adversary so that he could be imprisioned and possibly questioned.

He deals with Yoda's attempts to get into position for a killing/crippling blow easily, and doesn't seem to be losing, at least to me.

I agree that it does not look like Yoda beating Dooku that decisively, however, it is my opinion that Dooku loses the fight by decision, to borrow a boxing term. What I mean by this is that while Dooku is not really getting the begeezes beaten out of him, while watching the fight, it looks to me as though he only has one or two offensive swings with his saber, and neither one of them looks threatening. On the other hand, Yoda is almost always on the offensive during the duel. Also, while Yoda does not land any really dangerous blows during the fight, an intelligent swordsman knows that it is not actually the killing blow that matters the most, rather, it is the strikes that set up the killing blow that are the most important. During their duel, Dooku mounted no serious offensive threat against his former master, therefore, I do not see any way he could win, since he had no way to set up a killing strike against Yoda. Yoda, for all we know, might have been using all his spinning and juking as a preface to his final and duel ending blow.

Look at Dooku. He doesn't seem at all worn down, even after dealing with a hyperactive Muppet on speed.

It might very well be that Dooku has not tired out much during his fight with Yoda. However, how does one know that Yoda is tired out from his acrobatic assault? Yoda is reputed as having the second highest midiclorian count of any Jedi next to Anakin. He is therefore exceptionally strong in the Force, and how do any of us know how long he could have kept going at his hectic attack pace. Perhaps he would have indeed tired out faster than Dooku. But then again, perhaps he might not have. One could argue that Yoda looked exhausted at the end of the duel, however, it must be taken into account that he had just held up an enormous and heavy pillar and had also stopped directly using the Force. During his duel, he was using the Force directly, and since he was so strong in it, he might have ben able to use it to propel him to fight on for quite a long time.

if you lookat it differently, Dooku's line "This is just the beginning!" could be a taunt to Yoda, stating that Dooku can defeat him, but is choosing not to for whatever reason.

I do not interpret the line that way, but hey, everyone can have his own opinion.

During a battle a sith will commonly try to defeat a Jedi from within, breaking his spirit. Vader did it and according to the VD Dooku did it to Kenobi too. This is a very strong weapon, since the sith can cause misfeelings in the Jedi suck as doubt or a lack of confidence.

That is an interesting point, but I do not believe that using that kind of tactic would work on Yoda. While it obviously can be argued that Yoda might not be the best lightsaber duelist around, I think one would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that Yoda is not the most powerful Force wielder in the galaxy during the time of AOTC, with the possible exception of Sidious (which I happen not to agree with, but that just me, and I'm biased towards the little green muppet man anyways ). Therefore, I think that any Force trick like that that Dooku could have tried on Dooku would have been countered easily by Yoda and his immense abilities in the Force.

 

Oh yeah....: "fought well you have, dooku"

Does this in any way point toward the fact that Yoda would have mopped floor with Dooku, rather soon?

Dooku then does the cylinder stunt, leaves!!! yoda to fight the cylinder. Why doesn´t he attack? Twofold...ONe because he is probably not allowed to kill Anakin by Sidious. Two if he chose to attack Yoda, would yoda just let him hit him? No, because he couldn´t move the cylinder by dying to fast, so he would rather fight Dooku, than let all three die meaningless.



What do you think?




DD - DD - Style VIII: The Spliff technique. Mastered so far only by the illustrous Darth Dane

 

That this is only the beggining line really confuses me. Why would he say that just before he leaves? Isn't that usually said to mean "Now watch what I do!" kind of thing? Now I seriously, seriously doubt this will happen, bu doesn't that line sort of set up a re-match between the two of them? Meditate on this, I will

EDIT: Sorry Darth Dane didn't see you post. I still think the reason he he left was because he knew troops would be coming and he needed to get the plans to Sidious.

 

Hehe DARTH_ABBADON I always thought the "this is just the beginning" line was a kind of defiant and stubborn remark by the arrogant Dooku who could not stomach the fact that he could not defeat Yoda. He did not want to admit that Yoda was going to defeat him, and he said that line kind of in denial I think. From waht I've seen, alot of bad guys say things like that when they are being defeated - the Green Goblin, the Joker, Skeletor, etc. I think baddies just say things like this when they're losing to try and soothe their over-sensitive egos.



Does this make any sense hahaha

 

Off subject of the Yoda/Dooku duel, one of the things I hope to see allot more of is Master Windu using more of Form VII. And I can imagine perhaps Anakin, although adopting Form V eventually and for obvious reasons, utilizing Form VII attacks in Ep. III. It almost seems to me Anakin would combine a mixture of the burgeoning Form VII along with Form V, simply to tap into the emotional aspect of his hate and rage, then channeling it into the stategim of Form VII to defeat his foe. Perhaps this combination of Form V along with Form VII is "proof" to use the term loosely, of his "chosen one" status, and it's this combination that makes him such a dangerous adversary in Ep. III.(Aside from the fact he's the chosen one and all that jazz)