The ships in the OT are MUCH cooler than those in AOTC or TPM

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by elfdart, Sep 22, 2002.

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  1. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Design is meant to affect people on a subconcious level, to evoke emotion and imagery. This is one of the basic principles of design that you would find in any textbook about the subject.
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    It seems a bit arrogant to assume that a given design is a failure simply because you happen to not like it. Personally, I have found the prequel designs every bit as intriguing and "subconciously appealing" as anything in the original films.

    So, tell me, why is your opinion the final word on this issue when there are clearly many who disagree with you? I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but there is a rather vast gulf between "I don't like it" and "It's a failure."
  3. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    I think it's fairly easy to distinguish between the factions in the prequels:

    Naboo: Chromed, sleek vessels.

    Republic: More industrial, harsher lines.

    Civilian: Generally a mix between aestheticism and functionality. Slave One and the Pod Racers for instance.

    Trade Federation/Seperatists: Definetly a bit of art-deco in here. Strongest influence of Chiang designs.

    Gungans: Similar to the TFs, but more organic.
  4. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    So, tell me, why is your opinion the final word on this issue when there are clearly many who disagree with you? I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but there is a rather vast gulf between "I don't like it" and "It's a failure."

    It's a failure to me, and that's enough. I never made such a proposterous notion that my opinion is the final word. When a design doesn't elicit an emotional reaction from me, I consider it a failure. If you are moved by the design, then you probably consider it a success. This seems like a pretty simple concept, and I'm not sure why you're trying to start a fight here. Besides, you should be in the other thread telling me why ANH is a fluke Oscar nom. when Raiders, a light adventure tale, was nominated five years later for practically all the same things.

    Chris2, I applaud your efforts to keep this thread going. Let's keep talking SW design.
  5. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    BTW here's some art from Mcquarrie. You can decide for yourselves how much made it into the finished films.



    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/01.JPG]
    Ralph's R2 sketch

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/06.jpg]
    Early Luke sketch

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/07.JPG]
    "Metropolis" 3PO

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/15.JPG]
    Leia concept

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/16.JPG]
    Vader concept

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/20.jpg]
    Obi-Wan concept

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/draw/26.JPG]
    Obi-Wan/Han Solo hybrid and female Luke

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/paint/20.JPG]
    Attacking the Death Star

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/paint/10.JPG]
    Stormtrooper with saber

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/swart/paint/11.JPG]
    Luke vs. Vader

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/draw/02.JPG]
    Tauntaun sketch

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/draw/08.JPG]
    Probe Droid

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/draw/09.JPG]
    Snowtrooper

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/draw/15.JPG]
    Walker concept

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/draw/26.JPG]
    Female Emperor?? I wonder if George was considering making the Emperor Luke and Leia's mother at one point....

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/02.jpg]
    Rebel evacuation

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/04.JPG]
    Rebel control room

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/07.JPG]
    Snowspeeders and downed Walker. You can actually buy these guys-if you can find them. Kenner produced these snowspeeders at part of their "Expanded Universe" line.

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/18.JPG]
    Bespin

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/22.JPG]
    "We would be honored if you would join us"

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/empart/paint/26.JPG]
    Vader vs. Luke

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/rjart/paint/10.JPG]
    Death Star hanger

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/rjart/paint/16.JPG]
    Emperor shocks Luke

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/rjart/paint/17.JPG]
    A-wings. The blue had to removed so they could composite them correctly.

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/04.JPG]
    Non-film painting of a Jawa fortress

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/02.JPG]
    Cloud City

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/16.JPG]
    Tusken camp

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/17.JPG]
    Coruscant

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/22.JPG]
    Coruscant's entertainment district

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/43.JPG]
    Ewok water village

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/48.JPG]
    Bespin baloon, one of the Mcquarrie concepts to make it into the Special Edition
  6. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    BTW one of Ralph's drawings actually made it into a Lucas-produced film:

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/movies/raiders/ark1.JPG]

    "Lightning...fire. Power of God. Or something."
  7. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Also, I thought I'd share my own experience with Mcquarrie. I sent a letter to him about five years ago, asking about his involvement with the "Illustrated" book, the "Expanded Universe" toys that utilized his designs, and also what he knew about the prequels.
    Interestngly, although Doug Chiang stated that Mcquarrie had inspected the Prequel designs and was quite pleased, Mcquarrie himself stated no such thing had happened.

    Could Chiang have been lying?

    Here are the SW toys based on Mcquarrie and Johnson concepts:


    [image=http://www.brianstoys.com/acatalog/POTF2_VehicleBoxed_AirSpeeder.JPG]


    [image=http://www.brianstoys.com/acatalog/POTF2_VehicleBoxed_CloudCar.JPG]

    [image=http://www.brianstoys.com/acatalog/POTF2_VehicleBoxed_SpeederBikeExpandedUniverse.jpg]
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Interestingly enough, many of the McQuarie sketches look like they could have been drawn for the prequels!

    In particular, the pencil sketch of Leia's outfit is very similiar to what Padme wears in Clones's final act. The "Attacking The Death Star" looks like the drawing that inspired The Phantom Menace's Trade Federations battle ships, and the shot of the Stormtrooper with the light saber looks like he could be standing in a building on Coruscant. Finally, the "Rebel control room" could just as easily be the control center we see during the Battle of Geonosis.

    It seems that in order to maintain visual continuity, Lucas mined some of McQuaries drawings and used them as inspiration for the prequel designs.
  9. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    I suppose in a way many of Ralph's designs also inspired Naboo and Geonosis.

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/52.JPG]
    A temple originally designed for Yavin.

    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/draw/34.JPG]


    [image=http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/book/25/paint/53.JPG]
    Some Naboo inspiration? Although these sketches were designated as concepts for Alderaan...

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    An early sketch of Coruscant, circa 1981.
  10. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Chris2, I love seeing all these concept drawings. They're very interesting. I hope you have many more left :D
  11. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Here's a comparison of Six OT designs, with five PT Alien designs.


    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/aqualish/img/eu_bg.jpg]
    Ponda Boba, who ended up getting his arm cut off. Other members of his species are seen applauding Jar-Jar in AOTC.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/ewok/img/movie_bg.jpg]
    The Ewoks.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/chewbacca/img/movie_bg.jpg]
    Chewbacca.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/jabbathehutt/img/curve.jpg]
    Jabba, in his original Non-CG state.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/moncalamari/img/eu_bg.jpg]
    Mon Calamari

    [image=http://fatz.swhosts.net/ANH/ELLORRS.GIF]
    Duros
    ------------------------------
    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/dug/img/eu_bg.jpg]
    Dug, represented here by Sebulba.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/fodeandbeed/img/movie_bg.jpg]
    Pod Race announcers, Fode & Beed.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/neimoidian/img/movie_bg.jpg]
    Neimoudians, represented by the TF baddies. Interestingly, they look very similar to the Duros.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/gungan/img/movie_bg.jpg]
    Gungans.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/geonosian/img/eu_bg.jpg]
    Geonosians.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/kaminoan/img/eu_bg.jpg]
    Kaminoan
  12. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Yet more concept art:

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    A Gandalfesque Yoda

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yaddle/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Yaddle

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Mace Windu. Imagine if Sam had to wear that...

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/watto/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    A more bird-like Watto.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/finisvalorum/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Chancellor Valorum. Judging by this picture, it looks that at one point, Ian Mckellan was considered for the role.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/toonbucktoora/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Toonbuck Toora.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/saeseetiin/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Jedi Master Saesee Tinn.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/ornfreetaa/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Jabba-sized Twi'lek Orn Free Ta.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/anakinskywalker/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Young Anakin sketch

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tfed_landingship/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Trade Federation Landing Craft

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicle/tfed_mtt/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Troop carrier

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicle/tfed_aat/img/bts_bg.jpg]
    Tank concept

  13. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Design is meant to affect people on a subconcious level, to evoke emotion and imagery. This is one of the basic principles of design that you would find in any textbook about the subject."

    Chiang has stated that many of the designs of the prequel vehicles were meant to evoke certain emotions and imagery. Most of the TF vehicles, for example, are based on animal shapes - a charging elephant (MTT's), a dragonfly (landing ships), a lion (AAT's), a pteradactyl (droid fighters), etc. The pod racers are clearly Roman chariots with jet engines instead of horses while the Republic Gunships evoke Vietnam era helicopter gunships. I'm not trying to dismiss the designs of the OT (which I love), but exactly what "emotion" does the B-Wing design evoke? Why was the Sith Infiltrator a fan favorite? Was it because it was a "cool" design, or was it because it reminded fans of their favorite ships from childhood? I think most of the OT designs probably seem "cooler" to some people is because the emotion they evoke is nostalgia.
  14. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I think most of the OT designs probably seem "cooler" to some people is because the emotion they evoke is nostalgia.

    That's an excellent observation.
  15. guittarjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    I thought it was the rose colored glasses.
  16. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Stay on topic! Stay on topic!

    Now that you know Chiang's intent with his designs, you now have to ask yourself how successfully he was able to convey these emotions to his audience. That is a basic step to analyzing and measuring the effectiveness of a design.

    Those are some great images Chris2!
  17. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    "...you now have to ask yourself how successfully he was able to convey these emotions to his audience. That is a basic step to analyzing and measuring the effectiveness of a design."

    You're "basic step" is completely subjective. Obviously, you feel he wasn't successful. The only true way to know would be to conduct a scientific measurement of the audience's emotional reaction -- something practically impossible to do. Without that, we're left with our own personal opinions.

    I respect the fact that you're happy with the OT designs. I love them too. But I think the new designs are cool too.

    Just curious, Tokyo, you're pitching your arguement about the prequel designs with a certain air of authority. Do you have training or education in art & design?





  18. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    You're "basic step" is completely subjective. Obviously, you feel he wasn't successful. The only true way to know would be to conduct a scientific measurement of the audience's emotional reaction -- something practically impossible to do. Without that, we're left with our own personal opinions.

    My personal taste is subjective sure, but this is how I arrived at my conclusion that the PT designs are a failure for me. Simply because I don't feel the designs are successfully conveying any type of emotion. Still, when evaluating design, you should ask first yourself what emotions the particular design is evoking within you, by what means its accomplishing this, and how successfully it's working. Again, taste is subjective, so you'll have different conclusions. I wasn't particularly moved by the unused designs in the OT either, to be honest. When I read those OT "art of" books, I often say, "Whoa! Glad they didn't use THAT!"

    ...only to bite my tongue 16 years later when I said, "Wha? They used it after all!?"

    I respect the fact that you're happy with the OT designs. I love them too. But I think the new designs are cool too.

    Let's discuss the strong and weak points of the OT and PT designs. I'm interested in hearing why people like the PT designs, and the emotional reaction they get from them. Hence, that's why I'm in this thread.

    Just curious, Tokyo, you're pitching your arguement about the prequel designs with a certain air of authority. Do you have training or education in art & design?

    If I told you, I'd probably get flamed by Durwood. But let's just say I have a strong interest in art and design, and am very passionate about the subject. Maybe I'm even a harsh critic, but that's OK.
  19. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    One of the things I like about the PT designs is that everything looks more "modern"...even though it comes earlier in the storyline. I find it amusing that many of the complaints about the differneces between PT and OT, is that everything in PT look "more modern" then OT.

    If you look at history, while there are advanments in technology, the design style of weapons gets much simplified. In terms of SW universe...the N-1 is a more elegant style then an X-Wing...however, X-Wing is the perfect combat starfighter.

    The Clone Wars are going to introduce hundreds of new weapons; trading effectivness over style. And aside from improvments in CGI over puppets/models, and bigger budgets, the ships creatures of the PT are going to look more advanced, because soiety was at it's highest point before the Clone Wars started.
  20. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    That's a great concept sketch for Alderaan, and you've got to love Pando Boba with his smooth jacket. Is Bea Arthur at the next table?
  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    If I told you, I'd probably get flamed by Durwood.

    ?[face_plain] Now why would I "flame" you (as many of my innocuous comments are mischaracterized) if you actually took the time to validate your expertise on a given subject?
  22. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Now why would I "flame" you (as many of my innocuous comments are mischaracterized) if you actually took the time to validate your expertise on a given subject?

    Because my training or background is irrelevant to the validity of my opinion, or the logic I use to support it. You know when you throw around that phrase "ad hominem" that you don't understand? That's what I'm talking about. Are you even interested in OT or PT design? If not, why are you posting in the DESIGN thread?
  23. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Because when I am directly challenged by a personal attack, I will respond. Don't want me to respond off topic? Then, don't issue the challenge, son.

    But on topic, I enjoy the differences between the two eras represented in the saga. The prequel era can be characterized as form over function. The stuff is made to be minimally functional but look pretty doing it. The Naboo cruiser and fighters are great examples of this. The cruiser, in particular, could barely outrun a stationary battleship but the sleek lines and glossy exterior really made you think the passengers were riding in style! In contrast, Han Solo's Milennium Falcon was a very fleet footed champ, able to out run extremely nimble fighters, but it certainly isn't the prettiest ship in the fleet, and the interior can hardly be called luxerious. But Han's "special modifications" were intended to make the ship work, not look good doing it.

    This is just one example of the wonderful contrast between the two socities represented throughout this brilliant 6 part saga.
  24. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Because when I am directly challenged by a personal attack, I will respond. Don't want me to respond off topic? Then, don't issue the challenge, son.

    You just hold on one minute here, best I take my belt to your hide boy! You mind your mouth from here on out! Damn kid'll learn one way yet.

    The funny thing is Durwood, if you were not responding to a "personal attack", you wouldn't ever post at all. This is the first time I have EVER seen you post an actual opinion about SW.
  25. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I love the ships in the OT and the PT. PT different time, OT different time. Both eras have cool ships.
    OT - X-wings and TIE fighters. Nuff said. Luke's landspeeder, one of my favs.
    Imperial Star Destroyers, Executor especially. Speeder Bikes(not a ship, but vehicle nontheless) all time fav. Millenium Falcon and Slave 1 of course! Skiffs were cool. Thought B-wings were cool.
    PT - The Naboo starfighters are cool. The Naboo cruiser in the beginning of AOTC was very cool. I liked the yellow speeder in AOTC and Zam's speeder. The Jedi Starfighter and the Republic Gunship are cool. Slave 1 of course!

    So far I loved most of the ships in OT and the PT. Its star wars!
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