Lit The Silver Linings Thread: things you unironically love in stories you hate

I really hate TOR, but I thought the Imperial Agent storyline was actually kind of cool. I really like the Intrigue aspect of Star Wars, and wished we got more stories about the spies of the Star Wars universe. (I loved Agent of the Empire for that reason)

 

The children go through a heck of a lot of trauma and abuse - but, from characters like Hethrir, Brakiss, Nolaa Tarkona, and so on.

Traviss brings this up in the round-robin interview in the back of the LoTF: Inferno paperback. But also points out that plenty of people go through trauma and don't become "conniving killers":



RH: Is there something about the parenting style of Han and Leia that contributed to the dark path Jacen has taken? Do they bear any of the responsibility?

KT: I wonder if any of the Skywalker/Solo kids had a good upbringing? If Coruscant had a decent social services department, they'd have taken them all into care, I think-the risks they were exposed to as little 'uns were shocking. Ben's found his own way - which isn't easy for him. The offspring of the A-list can go nuts pretty easily trying to live up to legendary parents, as we know in real life.

AA: It's the generation gap, plus lightsabers.

TD: Jacen was captured by the Yuuzhan Vong and brainwashed by Vergere, so he's been through a lot that wasn't his parents' doing. Ultimately, though, the only person responsible for what Jacen has become is Jacen himself.

KT: Right. I agree that his experiences of the Vong with Vergere did freak him, and distorted his perspective on his own fallibility. But Jacen is actually just a very smart guy with an excessively high opinion of himself. Like so many of those in power, especially the most able, he edges toward the bad stuff a slice at a time, and it's all too easily done, all too easy to self-justify. He doesn't start out psychiatrically iffy, but power corrupts and also warps, and there's no doubt that power can seriously unhinge people. But there's no inevitability about any of it: many, many people who undergo terrible trauma and nightmarish family lives don't end up being conniving killers, and sometimes, despite their best efforts, the most decent, responsible parents produce appalling brats. In the end, the only person responsible for what we do is ourselves.

 

Traviss and Denning make me sick to my stomach with those comments.

 

I've been thinking lately about the Dark Empire "trilogy", and while I really love the original DE, the sequels are... not very good, to say the least. But I do think there's some to like in both of them, which made me think of this thread.

In Dark Empire II:

• It's completely plot-irrelevant, but the Battle of Balmorra is a really cool setpiece, and a fun way to open the series.
• Empatojayos Brand has a very silly looking design - these days I keep thinking he looks like nothing so much as a humanized BB-8! - but I thought it was nice to see a wholly decent cyborg character in Star Wars. Likewise, his space-steampunk civilization is both goofy and cool at the same time.
• The Imperial political struggle and maneuvering on Byss in the aftermath of Palpatine's "death" is probably the best part of the series, even if it's cut a little short by his latest resurrection.
• They were mostly chumps (on both sides, really), but it was fun to have action involving multiple Force users with the Dark Side Elite and Luke's new Jedi.

As for Empire's End, it's so short there's not a lot to like, but I'm really fond of the scene where Palpatine visits Korriban - both from the sheer "cool factor" of seeing Korriban in the modern era, and from the interaction between Palpatine and the ancient Sith. I also like the bit in the conclusion with Brand dragging Palpatine's spirit into the afterlife once and for all.

 

The best part of Empire's End is that Han Solo kills the Emperor.

 

That's one of those moments that's totally badass and you feel guilty thinking it's badass because it undermines the whole Vader/Palps story in the movies but you cannot deny is still badass.

 

I don't think Palpatine was himself any longer by that point, whether in terms of personality or terms of powers.

 

Yeah, I think even Dark Empire 1 is a better end for Palpatine. Self destruction is the best way thematically for a Sith to go out, because it's intrinsic to their nature. Palpatine being destroyed by his own Force storm fits perfectly.

As far as Vader/Palpatine, I really don't mind that Dark Empire brought him back. Vader's motivation for killing Palpatine wasn't to kill Palpatine, but to save Luke. Palpatine's "survival" doesn't mitigate that. I think of it as Vader taking a bullet for Luke.

I think Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire are both better ends for Palpatine than Han Solo killing him and Brand taking him into death for that reason, actually. You could argue that Palpatine's over reliance on the technique led to it in a self destructive sense, and the fact that he didn't supplement that ability with Plagueis' makes an even better argument for that interpretation IMO -- since it would have mitigated the flawed clone aspect -- but it's still too indirect.

Dark Empire 2 was actually okay in terms of existing, in the sense that it has a purpose in taking the mythos forward by way of Luke re-establishing the Jedi order, but it's done in by its execution and its open ended nature. The Empire Strikes Back was utterly reliant on Return of the Jedi, and if that movie fell flat, I think Empire would not be looked on as highly due to its lack of an ending. The first act of Return of the Jedi is really the end of The Empire Strikes back, in a sense. Dark Empire 2 is flawed in that it opens with Kam Solusar being with Luke, which would have been a good story in itself -- and it was but got cancelled -- and the fact that Empire's End was so lackluster that bringing Palpatine back seems overly indulgent. I don't think the Ysanna are a particularly interesting way for Luke to re-establish the Jedi order. The biggest issue is that Kam Solusar is the only established personality, and without having a larger group all Kam really does is replace Leia in importance in that regard, which is unfortunate. It definitely is a story that would have benefited from being a chapter rather than its own story, which would have required more than we got in Empire's End, or even more than another six issue conclusion.

 

Luke and Leia battling Palpatine without Anakin. Works for me.

 

When you think about it, the Force storm is thematically identical to Vader in Dark Empire 1. In Return of the Jedi, Luke turns Palpatine's creation, Darth Vader, against him. In Dark Empire 1, Luke and Leia turn his creation, the Force storm, against him.

 

I wonder if Dark Empire 2 would have worked better with Palpatine as a ghost instead of another clone. We had already seen clones in Dark Empire 1.

 

I liked the ability to play as Darth Malak in TFU 2.

 

The Dark Empire trilogy undermines the whole Vader/Palps story from the films. But some of us can't refrain for enjoying it. It's just so intriguing.

While it is true that Han kills Sidious's final clone physically, it's technically Empatojayos Brand who drags Sidious's soul to the afterlife to be incarcerated by every Jedi who had become one with the Force. Luke said that Brand was a greater Jedi than he was, and he's one of the most heroic characters in the story. I liked Luke and Leia's relationship, Luke's dark side revealed, and Sidious's insanity and megalomania in the story.

However, I have gone back and forth on this, since I originally liked the idea of Vader being the one to permanently kill Sidious in the first place. I can believe his heroic sacrifice saved Luke and severely undermined the Empire, however. Besides, with or without Dark Empire, I can view Sidious Palpatine as the primary antagonist of all of Stars Wars, including the EU, considering that he's the culmination of thousands of Sith Lords, the inspiration of those who came after him, and arguably the worst and deadliest. Therefore, I can understand why people don't like the story, but it's hard not to like some aspects of it, such as Leia's role, Boba Fett's return...and Han shooting Palpatine. I often have to tell the uninitiated that Darth Sidious Palpatine is the "Hitler of Star Wars" or the "Devil of Star Wars." When I describe some of the things he's done, people are generally afraid as they would be of some real life tyrants, and who can blame them?"

 

As much as I dis-liked the post NJO Legends, I actually really liked Vestara. I thought Ben and her had interesting character interactions.

In my head cannon Ben and her hook up and leave their respected orders : D

 

I tend to think Brand was speaking figuratively, since all the Jedi that became one with the Force lost their identity upon doing so (besides Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda).

Vestara was an interesting character whose arc was completely undermined in the final novel.

 

^Was it Denning's fault?

 

This. Actually, undermined by the final scene of the penultimate book. The final book just cemented that.

 

Well god damn it I gotta reread DEII and EE now

 

I thought about adding that caveat but that scene didnt preclude anything, really.

 

Maybe one can get Marvel to release Lightsider - the novel (to be illustrated by Dave Dorman) was finished but Dark Horse refused to publish it.

 

Well, she kind of killed a Jedi and then thought "Whelp, can't do this light side thing, might as well just go back to being all Sithy-like and then kill Ben when he finds out!"

 

Sorry. I should have clarified that I thought so, too.

Um...I like Luke's reply to Taalon.

"When our work together is done, I'm very much looking forward to killing you."
"We all need a dream, Lord Taalan."

 

Rereading the Dark Empire sequels and I forgot Sheev's spirit is decimated by the laptop from Perfect Dark

 

Hahaha... I gave up on FotJ pretty quickly, but this sounds hilarious.