Saga The Sith and Balancing of the Force

It's not just his dialogue.. .if Yoda thought only the chosen one could destroy the Sith why would he think that he and Obi Wan could destroy the Emperor and Vader? If he truly believes in the prophecy his actions are completely illogical.

I also completely disagree with you that not mentioning it in the OT means nothing. It actually seems like a REALLY important thing to discuss with the guy you are sending off to destroy the sith

 

yoda thinks they were wrong about everything at that point, as does the audience if they are first watching the series in order. only luke believes there is good in vader and luke doesn't know anything about the prophecy.

anakin fulfills the prophecy despite everything, which is the point. in mythology, prophecies seldom come true the way people think they will. there are always twists that people don't expect, like anakin seeing padme dying in childbirth. he has visions of this happening but in his efforts to keep it from coming true he actually makes it happen.

 

Yoda doesn't believe in the prophecy for a short period. They confront the Sith and lose. Later, Luke and Leia are born and he realizes that maybe it was one of them.

Who says that they didn't tell him? We don't see everything that happened on Dagobah.

 

He believes the prophecy was misread. And his actions are not illogical when all he's doing is fulfilling his duty.

Why? Where's the relevancy?

 

actually they wouldn't tell luke anything about the prophecy. it would only confuse matters. there are many things they don't tell him because he doesn't need to know. all he needs to know is that he must destroy the sith.

 

Ok - so I disagree to some degree about the signficance of not mentioning the prophecy in TESB (and the OT) i general - but that's kind of off topic here so I'll drop that (and darth-sinister's point that maybe they discussed it off camera is a fair one).

I want to go back to the topic of the thread - which is the balancing of the force.

We know that the dark side of the force WAS NOT stronger in the OT per Yoda's dialogue in TESB

So again, what does it mean (USING ONLY WHAT IS SHOWN IN THE FILMS) for the force to be out of balance? What are the sith doing? What are the effects? The only things I have been able to gleam are a couple of vague references to "the dark side clouding things" and windu's comment about the "ability to use the force being diminished". One could probably argue that the implication there is more about the ability to see the future and sense things as opposed to things like combat ability/telekinesis/etc.

 

Like I said earlier, the Sith are blurring the lines between good and evil. The Republic was a noble institution, but now looks like a bunch of bullies for fighting against the Confederacy, which is tired of the corruption of the Chancellor and the Senate. The Senate claims that they have no army, but then the Jedi unleash the Clone Army which looks bad for the Republic. The Confederacy looks noble for wanting to end the corruption, but it only exists to eliminate the Jedi and make it easy for Palpatine to gain power. The Republic wants peace, but started a war to achieve that peace. The Jedi do not use the Force to attack, but that is precisely what they did on Geonosis.

Those are the things that weaken the Force and pull it out of balance.

 

I agree that the Light Side and the Dark Side are metaphors for Good and Evil in this fable we call SW. But we're not discussing the stories/films and how they can be interpreted by cinema goers here, we're discussing the way the world works in a functional way within that saga.

It seems Balance appears to work like an hour glass, where a couple of Sith tip the glass and the sand on the Jedi side runs out and goes to the Sith side as they grow in power. When I ask for an explanation of balance this is the effect I'm questioning.

The notion that Jedi powers simply diminish as the Sith rise is very peculiar to me. It basically means the Jedi do not have a complete understanding of the Force, as they only see what their powers let them. And when the 'fog' of the Dark side builds it means they see less and less.

This is unsatisfying. In the OT there was this sense of peace and harmony that practioners of the Light Side had. They had all the answers as it were. Now they are just presented as a group that believes one thing, but cannot see the whole picture. In fact, by closing their eyes to the Dark side they leave themselves wide open to corruption and invite their own destruction.

 

In the OT it's explicitly stated that the dark side is not stronger.... so at least by that time the jedi should be able to use the force just as well as the sith.

 

Huh? The Force is pulled out of balance by the Republic's stance on militarization and foreign policy? Surely not.

If they created an unpopular tax hike, or regulated Healthcare would that be the evidence of the Dark Side as well? I just cannot accept that.

Surely the various aspect of the Force have little to nothing to do with how governments and institutions operate? This is exaclt why blurring the mythology of the Force by trying to make it all about Good and Evil goes so wrong.

Bad policy by the Jedi and the Republic alone cannot simply be related to the Dark side. This basically is equivalent to medieval priests blaming crop failure on devil worshippers.

 

But the powers of the Jedi start to diminish and their sight to cloud before they become generals fo the Clone Army, so that can't be the reason of their reduced power.

 

there's the dark side and the light. the force is in balance with dark and light because we all have those within us. then there are the sith. the sith are more than just dark side users. they are master manipulators that want to control the galaxy. this is why the sith imbalance the force.

 

The bolded makes absolutely no sense. They imbalance the force because they are master manipulators that want to control the galaxy? Huh?

 

I believe he means that the Sith exert their powers in such a massive way that brings the Force out of balance. People may use the dark side here and there, acting on fear, taking vengeance, murdering, etc... But that doesn't bring the Force out of balance, because they are just small drops in the ocean. The Jedi have handled most of the bigger problems for thousands of years (at least within the Republic). The Sith however, due to their powers and influences, make the dark side tip over the light in a significant way to cause imbalance.

 

What it means is that the Jedi do understand the Force and that so long as everyone works together, then the whole of nature works. The Jedi serve the Republic and the Republic serves the people. Everyone is connected together. They are part of the symbiont circle that Obi-wan speaks of to Boss Nass. What affects one, affects the other. The Sith are a cancer, a parasite that disrupts that balance by tainting the Force. They cause the dark side to grow stronger than the light, which it can never do. Just as there cannot be too much light over the dark.

THE FATHER: "It is only here that I can control them, a family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction replaced by creation."

OBI-WAN: "Then why reveal yourselves to us?"

THE FATHER: "There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."

The Jedi did not close to their eyes to the dark side. They were always vigilant, but even great evil can creep up when one is not expecting it to. The Sith evolved and adapted, the Jedi did not. What you see in the OT are Jedi who have finally adapted, but they are no stronger than they were before. Their powers are just as diminished as before.

The dark side is stronger, because it is the dominant power in the galaxy. The Jedi do not care about power, but about knowledge which is power. The Sith care about physical power. A Jedi can use the Force the same as a Sith, but the Jedi's awareness in the Force, their connection to it, is weak because the Force is polluted. For the Sith, they can see just fine. Their connection is strong. When Anakin destroys the Sith, the Force snaps back into place.

It is bad decisions by everyone, a result of the Sith's manipulations, that causes the Force to go out of balance. Again, what affects one, affects many. The Sith forced everyone to go contrary to their nature, in order to gain power. Greed replaced compassion. Fear replaced acceptance. Anger replaced serenity. Too many in the Senate were afraid to take action for themselves and gave up their power for security. That is not right. There needs to be a balance between the two. Enough security for enough freedoms. The Jedi took to war, instead of serving peacefully. The Confederacy was motivated by greed. Too many were either too eager to fight, or too afraid to fight. There was too much indifference. In the OT, a growing number of people want to fight to make the galaxy a better place. They fight for freedom. They fight to help others without thought of reward. They are not manipulated by the Sith.

The idea of the dark side influencing the light has been part of the story since the second draft of ANH.

 

That seems a very odd stance based on the actions as seen in the movies.

Darth Sinister puts it as well as I've ever seen anyone:

It is bad decisions by everyone, a result of the Sith's manipulations, that causes the Force to go out of balance. Again, what affects one, affects many. The Sith forced everyone to go contrary to their nature, in order to gain power. Greed replaced compassion. Fear replaced acceptance. Anger replaced serenity. Too many in the Senate were afraid to take action for themselves and gave up their power for security. That is not right. There needs to be a balance between the two. Enough security for enough freedoms. The Jedi took to war, instead of serving peacefully. The Confederacy was motivated by greed. Too many were either too eager to fight, or too afraid to fight. There was too much indifference. In the OT, a growing number of people want to fight to make the galaxy a better place. They fight for freedom. They fight to help others without thought of reward. They are not manipulated by the Sith.

As we know life creates the Force so the idea that living beings actions impact the Force's balance and the Sith cause the Force to go out of balance by those actions causing the "Dark Side" natures of everyone to be exposed (even the Jedi themselves for being made into soldiers rather than keepers of the peace).

The Sith fighting in an open way can't have the same impact on the Force as a Phantom Menace way. Evil from within in an insidious way is far more damaging. By the time they realize that it's happened it's far too late.

It's not co-incidence that Lucas chose the name Darth Sidious for Palpatine not just for the Dark Side but for how he works.

 

I'm sorry, but the films simply do not support this:

The Jedi did not close to their eyes to the dark side. They were always vigilant, but even great evil can creep up when one is not expecting it to. The Sith evolved and adapted, the Jedi did not. What you see in the OT are Jedi who have finally adapted, but they are no stronger than they were before. Their powers are just as diminished as before.


Yoda explicitly says the opposite.

I do appreciate your post as you at least trying to get at what the force being out of balance actually means.

 

Yoda tells Luke that the dark side is not stronger in and of itself, not that in the galaxy the dark side is not "stronger" right now. Embracing the dark side leads to death and decay. Treachery is the way of the Sith, and is in that sense self-defeating. Whereas resisting the temptations of the dark side and remaining in the Light takes greater strength, and unlike the way of the Sith, selfless embrace of the Light can enable one to survive beyond death. Thus, Obi-Wan says in ANH, "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." That the Light is in-and-of-itself stronger than the dakrness does not mean that in the galaxy at large that the Force cannot be out of balance. The Force is out of balance in the galaxy because the Life which generates it is in thrall to the practitioners of the dark side.

 

Why is it an odd stance to believe that the underlying powers in the SW universe have nothing to do with the failings of the beings who live and die within it?

Yikes. I suspected there was a theological overreach going on from some who wish to tie the mythology of the Force into the minutia of life - almost to the point at which there is no longer self-determination/free will in anything. Now it appears self evident.

My understanding always was that The Force (both Living and Cosmic) is just always there. Those who are Force sensitive are able to tap into this. It is the degree of enlightenment of the individual that determines whether they are drawn to the DS or the LS. Some are simply neutral and have no Force sensitivity at all. And that's fine too.



The powers of its practitioners are affected by what other Force users do. This is fine, and does not conflict with the notion of free will. I am happy to hear that the battle between the Jedi and Sith is important as they affect one anothers' abilities to manipulate the Force to their will. The existence of Sith creating an imbalance for the Jedi is fine with me.

But fundamentally, a sentient being should remain free to make good decisions or bad.

Not this monolithic view of how the Force works, though. Not this idea that there is somehow a kind of interventionist Force that cares what path you choose.

I hate this idea that the Force has a point of view about who you vote for, what degree of profits your Confederacy chooses to chase after, and whether or not you as a Jedi are happy to live in a Universe where slavery is so common the very idea of rescuing Shmi doesn't even cross the mind of a great Jedi like Qui Gon.

This is a Force that offers no real choice - only consequences for failing to live up to subjective standards of morality. Yeesh. That's just horrible.

Every example cited in the previous posts for why the economic and poltical status of the galaxy must be related directly to the Force just makes me slightly vomit in my mouth. I was only joking when I compared it to the way medievals believed in an interventionist Devil responsible for every little thing that was regarded as 'negative' in their lives. By what some posters are now telling me, this is EXACTLY the way the Force works in their minds.

I thought the mysticism in SW was deeper than that. And I still do.

Peace.

 

Is the "cosmic force" even mentioned in the films at all?

 

Nope.

 

I hesitate to speak for Aexrd and darth_sinister, but I don't think anyone here has said anything like the view you are rejecting. Where has anyone said that the Force was interventionist, or took sides in galactic politics, economics, etc., or limited free will? Rather, it is the opposite - the free choices of intelligent beings impacts the balance of the Force, not the other way around. If we are going to stick with your Devil/crops metaphor, what people have been saying is analogous to blaming the existence of the Devil on greedy farmers, not vice versa. That the balance of the Force is related to the relationships among living things being in balance - whether political relationships or otherwise, in no way entails that the Force takes sides, is interventionist, or that bad things happening can be blamed on anything other than the free choices of sentient beings.

 

There are two propositions.

The proposition that the Sith influence the decisions of others - those others being listed as Senators (and the way they voted), the Jedi themselves (in the way they acted), the Confederacy (who became too influenced by "greed") etc. This suggests that all of the political maneuverings in the Galaxy are of a Force related nature - rather than merely an extension of political/economic forces.

This is fine. This is direct action taken by the Sith. I take no issue with this at all.

However, there is another key proposition I do take umbrage with. It was suggested that because the Force is created by all life, the actions of lifeforms - by a questionable leap of logic - therefore affects the Force (whether they are actually Force sensitive or not).

The Force is supposed to be created by life, no categorized as Dark or Light by it.

But if this was true, this means that the "Balance" of the force can be determined by the actions of any living being. Kick a cat, and the Dark Side wins. Pat a cat and the Light side wins. This is the idea I dislike. Because if it was true, then denizens can say quite happily that there is simply an imbalance in the Force and that is why "Bad" things happen.

You say there is freedom of choice. But if one cannot choose to live a life without unwittingly tipping the balance one way or the other, this is no choice at all.

 

The Light and dark sides exist, and beings embrace the former by acting selflessly, and embrace the latter by acting selfishly. But that doesn't mean that just any living being can tip the scales of the Force on a galactic scale. (Even if that were not the case, it would still be a non sequitur to say that therefore imbalance in the Force causes bad things to happen, rather than the reverse.) It is not as though the fate of the universe hangs on each and every moral decision intelligent beings have to make. I agree that the actions of Force-sensitives - specifically, the Sith - are fundamental to bringing about imbalance, but that doesn't mean non-Force sensitives do not play a contributing role. If all living beings are in the Force and generate the Force, it would make little sense to say that their actions have no effect on the Force at. A minimal effect when measured on the galactic scale, to be sure, for any given non-Force sensitive individual, but not no effect at all. If the actions of living creatures had no effect on the Force they generate, then their freedom would be trivial at best - a freedom that could not meaningfully affect their environment. Rather, freedom has significance because it can effect the environment and change things, as opposed to a locked, deterministic system. Freedom of choice is not freedom from negative consequences and repercussions.

 

I suspect it all boils down to sentient beings overestimating how important their own little facet of the Force really is in the greater scheme of things. Light or Dark, maybe the Force really doesn't care? Sith or Jedi both do, by neither sect has really ever created a governing philosophy that wasn't fatally fundamentally flawed in one way or another. They could both be wrong. Plenty of time left in the age of the Universe to find that out for sure.