Saga The Sith goad whilst in combat, so why don't the Jedi encourage with the same amount of passion?

Obi-Wan pretty much fuels Anakin's rage by suggesting if we must fight than so be it. Only after he's desperate and pretty much spent does he decide to start talking him round.
Surely, if that was a Sith trying to convert a Jedi, it would be a constant onslaught of deceit and persuasion from the start?

 

Ive read this thread 3 times now and don't quite understand what you're trying to say,

the Jedi should use deceit during combat?

 

I read it as the Jedi should use...constructive criticism or yell moral boosters with the same *ahem* pizazz as a Sith yells bad stuff?

 

That would be hilarious... "Oh well done, Darth, very nearly had my arm off there. Better luck next time old chap.''

 

I thought Luke was pretty passionate and convincing in the throne room. Judging by the results, his dearly loved Dad did too.

 

"Damn it Maul you had the high ground! Why didn't you cut me in half when I jumped over you?"
Years later "Anakin you moron! Just because I jumped over Maul dosn't mean you could!Well better luke-I mean luck next time old chap!"

 

Like Sarge said, Luke does it with Vader. If everyone did it to the same extent, the throne room scenes would lose something, I think.

I don't know where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan would even start with Maul. They don't know anything about him. They don't know his background, his history. I don't think they even know his name. Maul doesn't seem to be a talker.

Obviously Anakin isn't the type to try with Dooku. I'm taking him now!

Obi-Wan makes his feelings clear on sight. "Traitor". "Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you."

Yoda has a certain familiarity with Dooku during their duel, but I'm not sure why Yoda doesn't try to reach him more. Perhaps Yoda is too hurt by Dooku's betrayal.

If Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't try before, they weren't going to try after two or three years of war, in the middle of a massive battle over Coruscant, after Dooku had the Chancellor kidnapped. (in their minds)

It is somewhat disappointing that Obi-Wan didn't try harder, more overtly, with Anakin before the duel on Mustafar. To be fair, Obi-Wan had been trying with Anakin for over ten years, he was probably pretty fed up with him, especially after the attack on the Temple. Considering what Anakin just did, and what Obi-Wan has to do, Obi-Wan was steeling himself for the upcoming battle. I think if Anakin had asked for forgiveness and mercy, Obi-Wan would have been receptive. But that's not what happened, Anakin choked Padme on sight of Obi-Wan and started pacing back and forth like a caged beast. Near the end of the duel, it's Obi-Wan that gives Anakin one last chance.

"I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you."
"I should have known the Jedi would try to take over."
"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" (one more plea)
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
"Well then you are lost!" (fed up)

He gives Anakin one last chance before finishing him. "Don't try it."

So, in a way, Obi-Wan does try with Anakin, just in a more restrained fashion.


I don't know why Yoda would try with Palpatine. It's go time. Still, he does say that Sidious' faith in the dark side is misplaced.

 

Besides Jedi deny passion and emotions so that would make no sense.

 

jedi - your swordsmanship is great!

sith - yours is terrible.

jedi - i love you.

 

YODA: "Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is . . . Consumed by Darth Vader."

YODA: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

YODA: "Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

The Jedi believe that once a Jedi has become a Sith, or some form of dark side adept, that they are beyond saving. That there is no hope for them which is why we don't see the Jedi try in the films. Obi-wan does, but not to the same way that Luke does. Obi-wan approach with Vader was, "Open your eyes and think." Luke approached it as, "I believe in you."

The Jedi don't deny passion and they encourage positive emotions.

 

I was just about to say the same thing darth-sinister said; until Vader repented, the Jedi believed it was impossible to come back from the dark side, so there was no point in trying. Fortunately, Luke hadn't been brainwashed in that tenet, and it's amazing what you can do when you ignore the people telling you that what you're trying to do is impossible.

 

Combat against the Sith is a bit like playing cricket against Australia. You will never out-sledge them, so it's best to not even bother trying.

 

I don't see it as brainwashing, but rather it was a unique situation. I believe that in the past conflicts, the Jedi Order of old did try to save their former brethren, but failed. They couldn't sense any good within them and thus it became accepted that there was no going back. Note that even Palpatine doesn't believe in it.

PALAPTINE: "By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you."

Vader was a unique situation in that while he was evil, there was some part of him that was good and it only comes through because of his son. Because of the memory of the love that he had with Padme, that is why he struggles with Luke. From all accounts, that doesn't seem to be true of the past.

 

Haha just read it back to myself and I definitely could have worded that better. Maybe I should have put some water in that whisky?

 

I see it more as a crap shoot situation. It's either going to happen or not.

 

The Jedi probably thought the Sith were irredeemable.

It isn't until ROTJ that we see a Jedi attempt to save a Sith from his own darkness. Before then, it was nothing more than "Destroy the Sith, we must"

Though to be fair, there is an extremely low chance of saving Maul or Sidious. Dooku might be saved, but who knows?

 

Well ... there is Form 0 and Form III - the tenets of the 'non-aggressive' philosophy the Jedi were taught my default to employ and to 'resolve conflict ASAP' without even needing to brandish weapons or Lightsabers or such ... or even subtle Force tricks to do the job ... AND Form 0 in particular - something Master Yoda would encourage and approve of ... and Form III Soresu the most defensive form of the 7 Lighsaber Forms of combat and given Form III Soresu being basically requiring you to 'remain in the eye of the storm and never straying far from the eye of the storm' and being defensive and buying you time to even reason with your opponent until they tire out or if they still are adamant to fight - they find an opening ... and the fact how Form III - when you disarm - or somewhat - you try to disarm your opponent rather than kill them and such ...

Actually its probably Palpatine whom REALLY REALLY cannot be redeemed and he's BEYOND HELP - consider Palpatine NEVER GAVE A FORCE about anyone and he murdered House Palpatine at the young age of 17 - he was trained and molded to a high standard by Darth Plagueis and how he had to endure a 'SHEE-VERING' on the frigid naked unforgiving wastes of Mygeeto early in his days as a Sith Apprentice ...

Master Yoda on a visit to Vjun in the EU did try to and nearly convinced Count Dooku to rejoin the Jedi Order and help the Republic ... until Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin intervened on the wrong timing ...