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The Sith Mind Trick

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER, May 19, 2005.

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  1. THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER

    THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Anakin admitted that he can't rationalize his feelings and this is often proven to be true - he believes what he feels. Once Sidious owns Anakin's soul, he can manipulate Anakin's emotions, and by extension, his beliefs. To appease the members of the board who define "soul" as a seperate entity from "mind", I'm willing to re-word my arguement in this way. "Soul" = "Mind" and, for Anakin, "feelings" = "beliefs". No matter which words you favor, the point is the same: Sidious has a degree of Force-control over Anakin once he owns his soul, but not complete control.

    gonvick:
    "So, if Palpatine is altering Anakin's feelings, and Anakin must feel what he's told to feel, why doesn't Anakin feel the same about Obi-Wan as he does the rest of the Jedi?"

    When Anakin sees Obi-Wan, he sees more than just another hated Jedi. He sees a friend, a brother, a father-figure. Anakin is willing to give Kenobi the opportunity to renounce his identity as a Jedi. Kenobi refuses and so Anakin tries to kill him.

    After the Jedi Temple Slaughter, Anakin begins lying to Padme. We know that Anakin doesn't "hope that (Kenobi) has remained loyal to the Chancellor" because he later accuses Kenobi of being part of the "Jedi Conspiracy" to overthrow the government.
    Furthermore...
    Anakin was crazy to think that Padme would want to tyrannically rule the Empire, but he would have to be a down-right moron to think that the galaxy will submit to a coop composed of a 23-year-old Jedi Knight and an unpopular senator. Listen to the way he stutters as he proposes this idea to Padme - he's just making it up as he goes along.
     
  2. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003
    But you said that Anakin must believe, or feel if you prefer, what Palpatine wants him to. Why would Anakin see Obi-Wan as more than another hated Jedi if Palpatine owns his soul and controls his feelings? Palpatine clearly wants Anakin to believe that Obi-Wan is a traitor just like the rest of the Jedi, so how could Anakin believe something else in regards to Obi-Wan? Palaptine tells him that Obi-Wan is a traitor, so if Anakin must believe what Palpatine tells him, how can he be willing to give Obi-Wan a chance? Doesn't he have to believe that Obi-Wan is a traitor like the Jedi in the temple since that's what Palpatine tells him?


    So when he says that he hopes that Obi-Wan will remain loyal, he's just lying? What purpose does that serve? Why can he tell Padme that the Jedi are betraying the Republic, but has to lie about Obi-Wan? Are you saying that he expects Padme to believe that Yoda would betray the Republic, but saying that Obi-Wan is in on it would be too much for her to buy? I don't understand what purpose lying about that serves, other than it's the only way that it fits with your theory. Just because Anakin later accuses Obi-Wan of being part of the Jedi conspiricy doesn't mean that he didn't earlier hope that he wasn't. When talking to Padme, Anakin hopes that Obi-Wan will remain loyal, like him, and thus not need to be killed. Later on Mustafar, he finds out that Obi-Wan isn't loyal to Palpatine and thinks that he's even turned Padme against him, so he tries to kill him. Anakin's actions on Mustafar aren't inconsistant with his expression of hope that Obi-Wan can avoid the fate of the rest of the Jedi.


    So if Padme had said yes, Anakin would have changed his mind? He would have told her that he didn't really want to overthrow Palpatine after all? I'm not saying that he had a detailed plan or had even thought it out thoroughly, but I find it hard to believe that Anakin is the one Sith in the history of the galaxy that didn't want to eventually kill his master and take over. And you still haven't answered why Palpatine didn't have more apprentices, if he can make them blindly devoted to him. Why would Palpatine stick to the two Sith limit if he can make his apprentices completely loyal to him?
     
  3. Darth_Killrain

    Darth_Killrain Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    The Question you ask of Why would Palpatine stay to the two Sith limit touches/ reveals an important point in this discussion or at least to me it does. Please permit me to ramble a bit.

    The Sith mind trick for me is a way to accept why Anakin continues to be Vader and essentially the Emporer's Lap dog for the rest of the time between the end of ROTS and ROTJ. I personally need this Sith Mind trick to wipe out GL's contradictions or inconsistencies between PT and OT. This thread mmyself included is missing out on a major point many of the facts revealed in the PT did not exist when the OT was made. Personally I think I'm reading things into the movies that probably aren't there just to deal with this disonence. Now back on point.

    There was no rule of two in the OT nor from what I've read in the annotated screenplays was there any rule of two. It's the same thing as to why doesn't Vader Kill the Emporer sooner? ROTS says Palgieus was killed in his sleep why doesn't Vader blow up the DS II while the emporer is inside? Sith Mind trick would explain it but is it correct.

    After reading all 14 pages of this thread, I love the theory of the Sith Mind trick, there is plenty of evidence & supposition to support it but I'm starting to come to the conclusion that its just not what GL intended. I can find plenty of support for my Theory that Padme was the Phantom Menace and actively worked to bring Anakin to the Darkside but I know that's not what GL had in mind. I hope in the ROTS DVD that Lucas goes into detail on Anakins turn in his commentary.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    "At this point, Vader?s plan really, now that he knows he?s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they?re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn?t been debilitated and now he?s half machine and half man, so he?s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he?s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn?t. Luke is Vader?s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    Vader only stays with Palpatine because he cannot kill him. Not until Luke comes and gives him the means to fulfill his plan of evil.
     
  5. Darth_Killrain

    Darth_Killrain Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Darth Sinister.

    Those quotes are GL's thoughts on Vader now. The Commentary is from 2004, the Rolling Stone interview from 2005. Its GL doing a lot of off the page retconning of the OT not unlike what we are doing in this thread. They explain in part but not in whole and to me expose more inconsistencies between the PT and OT. How powerfull does one need to be to overthrow Palpatine? Its not about physical strength because Vader who is badly beaten by Luke just picks up Palpatine and chucks him down the reactor shaft in ROTJ. Darth Plagieus is killed in his sleep. So its more about mental power than actual physical power.

    I guess I just have to take it that Darth Vader as he is written and portrayed now is just a "flunky" who is a failure at saving his wife and too stupid to formulate a plan to kill Palpatine until he finds out he has a son who can help him do the job. Not a very tragic character actually its a rather pathetic one.
     
  6. THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER

    THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    gonvick:
    "Doesn't he have to believe that Obi-Wan is a traitor like the Jedi in the temple since that's what Palpatine tells him?"

    Yes, Anakin does believe Kenobi is a traitor, an "enemy of the Republic." Anakin distrusted the Jedi, that's how Sidious was able to warp his feelings and mind into believing that they wanted to take over. Most of these Jedi are strangers to him. Distrust-to-hate is a 90 degree turn, not a 180. But Kenobi is his best friend. Sidious can not make Anakin WANT to kill Kenobi anymore than he could make Anakin WANT to kill Padme. This is an important distinction of the theory: Sidious does not have COMPLETE CONTROL over Anakin. Sidious is not Vader's puppeteer. He can't invert people, only twist them, mentally and spiritually, through the darkside. He can only manipulate Anakin's negative thougts and feelings, and exaggerate them to suit his desire. Kenobi is a tough case because Anakin loved his master.

    Lucas had many opportunities to give Anakin a real reason to believe the Jedi would overtake the Senate. After Anakin leaves the Council to tell Palpatine that Grevious has been destroyed, Mace mentions that the Jedi might have to take control of the Senate if the Chancellor refuses to give up his emergency powers. If Lucas wanted to make his audience believe that Anakin REALLY did honestly think that the Jedi would wipe out democracy - why not include Anakin in the room in this situation? After reading this scene in the screenplay, I wondered if the camera would cut to Anakin evesdropping in on Mace's conversation, to establish a rational suspicion for Anakin against the Jedi, particularly against Mace.

    But that didn't happen. The absense of evidence for Anakin's beliefs that... 1) The Jedi are tyrants 2) Killing Jedi will help him figure out how to save Padme 3) He apparently forgot to stop mind-choking Padme...leaves me to conclude that... A) Sidious has a magical degree of influence over Anakin... or... B) Anakin is as gullible as a 5 year old... or... C)Lucas is a hack.

    "The Jedi will kill all the Senators" comes out of NOWHERE and Anakin believes it. And he's not just lying to himself. If Anakin just accepted it as an excuse for slaughtering Jedi, if he just believed it to relieve his own guilt, he would not tell Kenobi later on, "I should have known the Jedi were trying to take over".

    gonvick:

    "Why would Palpatine stick to the two Sith limit if he can make his apprentices completely loyal to him?"

    Because Palpatine understands the nature of the darkside.
    Palpatine knows that anyone who delves far into the darkside will become a power junkie.
    All power junkies want absolute power.
    By all evidence, Vader SHOULD WANT to kill Sidious.
    What's mystifying is that Vader doesn't think he can accomplish this himself, when obviously, he is very close to the Emperor and, being such a cunning warrior, you'd think he could come up with a way to off his boss besides an out-and-out duel.
    Vader could detonate his shuttle.
    Vader could kill him in his sleep.
    Etc, etc.
    why does Vader so firmly believe that it is impossible FOR HIMSELF to find a way to kill the Emperor?
    Why does Vader block Luke's saber from splitting the Emperor in half?

    For a Sith, having an apprentice is risky business. Palpatine knows that the Sith have a long tradition of killing each other - he himself killed his own master. He can put mental blocks over Vader ('You could never kill me', 'You must defend me when I'm in danger'), but - because he knows any Sith must be devoted to the self-centered power of the darkside - there's always a chance they will overcome any insurances put in place. He can never COMPLETELY trust anyone. Remember that Sidious was once a Sith apprentice, and should know better than anyone.

    I'm assuming that this question is more specifically asking: Why doesn't the Emperor try to keep both Luke and Vader under his command, if he can mentally warp them?
    Well, for one, Sidious figures that Luke killing Vader wi
     
  7. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003
    But not before he gets to Mustafar. So Anakin comes to believe that Obi-Wan is a traitor without any Sidious mind trick being involved, right? He goes from hoping that Obi-Wan has remained loyal to believing that he's an enemy of the Republic, all after kneeling before Sidious, where this mind trick is supposed to have taken place. Can we then agree that the change in his feelings towards Obi-Wan are not related to Sidious using the force on him? And his change towards Padme, going from not being able to live without her to choking her, is likewise not due to a Sith mind trick? If so, why is it that a change in perspective towards the rest of the Jedi, who weren't nearly as close to him as Padme and Obi-Wan, must be explained by Sidious altering Anakin's mind?


    I don't think that Anakin hated the Jedi immediately after becoming Vader. He doesn't look or sound hateful towards them until Mustafar. When he tells Padme that a lot of Jedi have been killed, he sounds regretful to me. I'm not sure where you get the "distrust-to-hate" thing from, at least before he he gets to Mustafar anyway.


    Sidious can only twist negative feelings? So Anakin must have already had negative feelings towards the children in the temple, right? So if he already has negative feelings towards the kids, why is it so hard to believe that he would kill them to save Padme? I thought this theory was necessary to explain why Anakin would kill a bunch of innocent kids, but if it requires him to already have negative feelings towards the kids, I don't see how it's very useful in this regard. You're saying that Anakin already doesn't like the Jedi kids, but it's so out of the realm of possibility that he would slaughter a second bunch of children for the chance to save Padme, that you need a Sith mind trick to explain it?


    Well, the Jedi did send him on a secret mission to spy on the Chancellor, which he says goes against the Jedi code. Palpatine, who is someone he trusts and already knows about the spying mission, tells him that the Jedi, in whom his trust has been shaken, are planning to take over the Republic. He then sees Mace try to kill Palpatine, after he shows up to help with an arrest. I think this gives Anakin enough reason to at least believe that the Jedi might be trying to take over. Once he decides to join Sidious, it doesn't help him in any way to disagree with Sidious' assertion that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic. It even helps him to try to believe it's true, as it will make what he's doing seem less evil.


    He certainly repeats it, but whether he believes it or not is another matter. I could explain it as Anakin is just agreeing with his new boss, since arguing with him is probably not going to help him in achieving his goal. That explanation seems, to me at least, as plausible, if not more so, as Sidious using a mind trick on him.


    But he says that on Mustafar, by that time he's been twisted by the dark side and has come to believe that it's true. That doesn't mean that he had to believe it immediately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that after the temple slaughter Anakin
     
  8. DarthPlagueisTheWise

    DarthPlagueisTheWise Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Here is my 2 cents.

    Sidious did not use a mind trick on Anakin, mind tricks work only on the weak minded. Anakin was maybe misguided but he was not weak of mind. He believed what Palpatine told him because he was too attached to Padme and too over inflated by his ego, a mind trick was not even needed to sway Anakin, all Sidious had to use was lies and false promises, Anakin had a choice and he made it with his own free will.

    //sith mind trick// The quicker you accept this the better off you will be. //waves hand//
     
  9. pcmedics911

    pcmedics911 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    Something that keeps failing to be mentioned here is that Palps acknowledged Anakin in Episode I. Anyone remember at the end when Palps tells Anakin "and you young skywalker, we will keep our eyes on you with great interest"

    He knew who he was or had some idea. The use of the mind trick, if that indeed is what turned Anakin away, must have been in preparation back in Episode I.

    I do have to agree that although Anakin "allowed this dark lord to twist your mind" as obi-wan said, he still had the conflict within him and as Mooonwalker mentioned, Anakins plan to overthrow the emporer was all the emporer needed. Even Padme was shocked "at what you plan to do"

    You still have to wonder though, if Vader was under the control of the Emporer, why did he chaste vader for sensing luke's presence when the emporer did not? Was vader hiding his true feelings and was it possible for him to do so if he was under the complete control of the sith?
     
  10. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    This thread has just completely run away from me...

    gonvick
    But [Anakin] says that on Mustafar, by that time he's been twisted by the dark side and has come to believe that it's true. That doesn't mean that he had to believe it immediately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that after the temple slaughter Anakin is twisted and consumed with the dark side? If so, couldn't that explain why he would believe the Jedi were trying to take over? Why isn't the dark side twisting him enough to cause him to change his perspective on the Jedi?

    gonvick, are you willing to shift the root of Anakin's twisted character from Palpatine to the dark side itself? THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER and I are arguing that Palpatine, as presiding Sith Lord, started the process and Anakin--arrogant, emotional hothead that he is--continued it with the Jedi Temple massacre and everything afterwards. I, for one, can compromise that most of Vader's behavior in the OT can be explained by his situation, ambitions, and dependence on the dark side. However, it still seems to me that there must be some extra impetus at the moment of Anakin's turn whether it's the dark side itself or Sidious using the dark side.

    Really, I just find Anakin's turn disconcertingly quick. No, I'm not saying the setup was too fast; that was nicely built up from TPM, and I can understand each and every step that led Anakin to the dark side. And, no, I'm not saying the aftermath--meaning after the Jedi Temple massacre--was too fast; that was nicely laid out as the result of Anakin's delusions and addiction to power and control through the dark side. It's the moment of Anakin's turn that bugs me. Seems to me the situation could've gone either way: Anakin's trust in the Jedi had been severely shaken, but Anakin had no reason to trust Sidious either, especially after the Palpatine alter ego had been revealed as more or less a total lie.

    Padmé is the deciding factor, and Anakin vows that he'll do "anything" to save her. And in that moment Anakin tosses aside any inhibitions he might have had?

    Sure, he's done terrible things before--the Sand People incident, Dooku, and Mace come to mind--but he's always realized and admitted that his actions were wrong. Right to the end.

    In the case of the Tuskens and Mace, it wasn't premeditated, but an act of passion; Anakin could only regret after the fact. Dooku, though, was a conscious decision, and while Dooku ended up losing his head anyways, it was clear the decision was difficult for Anakin to make. And Dooku was Sith and leader of the Separatists, i.e. clearly the enemy.

    The situation of Anakin's turn is much more complicated. Arguably, Anakin has much more at stake: his "beloved" Padmé. Yet, on the other hand, Anakin is arguably being asked to act against his former friends and brothers.*

    And is there any sign of the sort of intense conflict Anakin had over killing Dooku? No. In fact, as... er, somebody pointed out, Anakin doesn't even show he hates the Jedi. He's pretty much a blank directly after pledging to Palpatine, and this is the same guy whose passions have consistently run high and, most important, in a way that's obviously expressed on his face and in his body language. Anakin is calm. Too calm for having made such a momentous decision. Later--during the slaughter of the Separatist leaders, through the infamous single tear, to his confrontation with Padmé and Obi-wan--he's clearly very emotional and torn between conflicting feelings.

    It's this calm that stands out for me. I can't understand why Anakin would become an unreadable emotional rock when mere seconds before he was aghast at Mace's grisly demise and desperate over Padmé. His expression doesn't so much as twitch--except for a single instance where he seems to be trying to shake off a mosquito--as he listens to Palpatine's plans, marches over to the Jedi Temple, and murders his brethren. Afterwards, on Mustafar, he's screaming (in anger or in agony?) as he slices his way through the Sep
     
  11. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003
    Yes, I do think that Anakin is twisted by the dark side itself. I think this twisting is responsible for his reactions to Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar.


    That's exactly it. He is so desperate to save Padme that he he's willing to do whatever Palpatine asks of him as long as there is a chance of saving her. Preventing Padme's death is the only thing that matters to him at that point, so he abandons what he knows is the right thing to do in his efforts to save her. If he had thought that the Jedi, or anyone else, could have helped him he would have likely made different choices. I think he probably still would have turned at some point, but he wouldn't have chosen Palpatine over the Jedi like he did in ROTS.


    I think that this is because he has already decided on his course of action. Killing Dooku, and the Tuskens, were impulsive decisions. He didn't go into the Dooku fight planning to behead an unarmed man. So when the situation presented itself, he was conflicted between what he wanted to do and what he knew he should do. After joining the Sith, he isn't as conflicted because he has already decided to do whatever he has to, and he can justify whatever he does, to himself anyway, as long as it leads to Padme living. If beheading an unarmed Dooku was part of saving Padme, he wouldn't have been conflicted about it. He knows when pledging himself to Palpatine that the Jedi will try to stop them. So when he's asked to kill Jedi, he accepts it as a necessary part of the deal. I don't think that Anakin, even in this less rational state, expects that he can join the Sith and save Padme without doing anything evil at all. And Palpatine tells him that killing the Jedi will make him stronger in the dark side, which is the only way that he can save Padme. So, in Anakin's mind, refusing to kill the Jedi in the temple could lead to him not being strong enough to save Padme, and he can't allow that to happen. I think Anakin is conflicted, but he is determined to not let that conflict stop from doing what he must.


    I think that his calmness is because he has made a calculated decision to follow that path. I think that his efforts to control the conflict within him leads to an outward appearance of calmness. But I wouldn't call him an "unreadable emotional rock" though. Every time I've seen the movie, Anakin seems to me, from when he becomes a Sith through the temple slaughter, to be determined to do something that he doesn't really want to do. I thought the look that he gives Palpatine when he's told to kill the Jedi in the temple showed that he wasn't thrilled with the order. I also thought the look on his face before he kills the children was one of being determined but unhappy with his task. It's possible that I'm just misreading Hayden Christensen's facial expressions, but that's what it looks like to me.


    I think at this point, he is just embracing the dark side more. He's using his anger and hate to become stronger in the dark side, as Palaptine told him would be necessary.


     
  12. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    gonvick, I think you make a lot of good points, and I'm willing to accept that the dark side itself is responsible for Anakin's twisted perceptions.

    I do think that Anakin is twisted by the dark side itself. I think this twisting is responsible for his reactions to Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

    I agree. Though to delay accusations that this idea absolves Anakin of responsibility in this whole mess, I'd make the distinction that the dark side cannot so completely warp a Jedi unless the Jedi allows it to. Even pursues the dark side for its easy power. Hence Anakin, Obi-wan, and Luke having brushes with the dark side but not immediately becoming power-hungry monsters.

    My question, then, is why wait until Mustafar to claim the dark side had somehow twisted Anakin? In my view, Anakin's dark side twisting is rather like the much accelerated version of what's been happening to him since TPM. He's been steadily heading into the gray since he joined the Jedi Order; in ROTS, he crosses the midpoint and, in his decision to ally with the Sith, begins plunging into the black. Like he was rolling down an incline before and has just stepped off a cliff.

    Now, when you step off a cliff, you don't hang, then begin falling some days later. No, you instantly begin to fall, falling ever quicker as you accelerate, until you reach terminal velocity... Er. The analogy can only be taken so far. :p

    Anyways, my point is that Anakin, from the very moment he pledged to the dark side, would have been subject to dark side twisting. This, in turn, would satisfactorily explain, IMO, why Anakin was so willing to totally squash any feelings of empathy he had and massacre his fellow Jedi with no remorse. Not to mention the skips in logic THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER has been arguing since the thread began.

    I can accept the rest of your interpretations as well, gonvick. So, the only point we still disagree on, correct me if I'm wrong, is that I feel Palpatine most certainly played a part in the dark side twisting. I can compromise and say Palpatine let Anakin's own nature and that of the dark side do most of the work in corrupting Anakin, but I can't quite imagine that manipulative bastard Palpatine did nothing to secure his own hold on his new apprentice. If nothing else, I imagine the Sith would have a dominating, controlling answer to the Jedi Master-Padawan bond.
     
  13. Vader2B

    Vader2B Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2005
    no Anakin was not weak minded his love for Padme just caused him to make the wrong choices.

     
  14. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003
    I agree that Anakin is completely responsible for his actions. He willingly chooses the path of evil to accomplish his goal and is thus responsible for whatever that evil brings.


    That's not what I intended to claim. I just use Mustafar as the point of no return, so to speak. That's when he's twisted to the point that saving Padme is no longer the most important thing to him. That's not to say that he definately could have turned back before that, but he's certainly too far gone at that point so it makes a convenient reference point. I do, however, disagree that the twisting effects start immediately after he pledges himself to the Sith. I think it progresses as he uses the dark side. I think he has to do more than make an intellectual commitment to the dark side for it to twist him. I guess you could probably make the case that his previous uses of the dark side have perhaps already started to subtly twist him and thus account for the speed of his tranformation.


    See, I think he makes that choice without any dark side "influence". I think he makes a calculated decision to kill the Jedi to save Padme. He's just that desperate at that point, as he says, he can't live without her. He's compelled by the same thing that lead to his betrayal of Mace, his overwhelming need to prevent himself the pain of losing someone he loves. That's why he's willing to bury his feelings and kill the Jedi. And I think his shedding of tears on Mustafar indicates that he does, indeed, have remorse for what he's done. He regrets having to kill the Jedi, but he won't let those feelings stop him from doing whatever he has to do to save Padme.


    Yes, we still disagree on this. I don't think that Palpatine himself had a hand in the actual twisting of Anakin. I think he just manipulates Anakin into choosing the dark side and lets it do it's thing. I'm not even sure that Palpatine knows that the dark side will twist Anakin. He has, after all, also been twisted by the dark side, so it's unclear if he would be aware of the twisting effects of the dark side. But it's really not important if Palpatine plans for the dark side to twist Anakin or if he's just so enamored with the dark side himself that he thinks that dedicating himself to the dark side is the only rational choice for Anakin to make.


    I think the main dynamic in the Sith version of the Jedi Master-Padawan bond is that a Sith Master is willing to kill his apprentice if he feels it would be beneficial to him. So a Sith apprentice must remain outwardly loyal and be competant until they can become powerful enough to kill their master and take over. I think that is basically what keeps Vader in line, besides having similar political views, he knows that he is expendable to Palpatine.
     
  15. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    First off, DarthPlagueisTheWise and Vader2B, please actually read the thread before jumping to conclusions. THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER and I have already made it clear that, despite the thread title, this theory is far beyond a simple Jedi mind trick and in no way implies that Anakin is weak-minded.

    In fact, the discussion has outlined, in great detail, the personality traits and circumstances that made Anakin particularly vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations from TPM forward and is now trying to tackle the meaning of all those statements we have about the dark side twisting people, how that relates to Anakin's turn, and what role Sidious played, if any. I, for one, have found this thread very helpful in understanding the root causes of Anakin's turn and in explaining his behavior afterwards, and I invite you to make contributions so long as they are polite, intelligent, and conducive to friendly debate. :)

    gonvick
    I just use Mustafar as the point of no return, so to speak. That's when he's twisted to the point that saving Padme is no longer the most important thing to him. That's not to say that he definately could have turned back before that, but he's certainly too far gone at that point so it makes a convenient reference point.

    Agreed. I misinterpreted your point. [face_blush]

    I do, however, disagree that the twisting effects start immediately after he pledges himself to the Sith. I think it progresses as he uses the dark side. I think he has to do more than make an intellectual commitment to the dark side for it to twist him. I guess you could probably make the case that his previous uses of the dark side have perhaps already started to subtly twist him and thus account for the speed of his tranformation.

    Your last point is valid, though I'd argue that Anakin remained essentially the same after his previous dark side brushes, as did Obi-wan and Luke. However, he was perhaps more aware of the dark side's existence; I imagine the taste of the primal power he tapped in his anger lingered like bad perfume. In addition, the violence and unleashed emotion of fighting the Clone Wars might have had an effect--not only on Anakin but on all the Jedi.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on whether the dark side twisting starts immediately after Anakin turns. As THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER has repeatedly pointed out, Anakin's emotions are inextricably tangled with his thoughts and beliefs. The fact that he can't make an intellectual, rational decision or commitment is his main weakness and the sticking point of his conflict with the Jedi Order. When he kneels before Palpatine and pledges to the Sith and dark side, he did so to save Padmé, but as you yourself have argued, he also did so with the full intention of throwing all of his mind, body, and soul into the task. Into doing and becoming whatever he must in order to gain the means to save Padmé. I'd say that's a wholehearted commitment to the dark side, albeit for "good" reasons, and--excuse the personification--the insidious dark side would take any hold it's given.

    Shoot! I've got to get to an appointment. I'll try to respond to the rest of your post in the afternoon.
     
  16. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    Hey, I'm back! <crickets> ...right. Nobody cares. :p Continuing where I left off anyways:

    gonvick
    I think [Anakin] makes a calculated decision to kill the Jedi to save Padme. He's just that desperate at that point, as he says, he can't live without her. He's compelled by the same thing that lead to his betrayal of Mace, his overwhelming need to prevent himself the pain of losing someone he loves. That's why he's willing to bury his feelings and kill the Jedi.

    However, he reacted rather badly to his part in Mace's death. And immediately after the fact. As you mentioned, he's essentially being compelled by the same fear of loss in both decisions--to attack Mace and to ally with Sidious--but it's the difference in magnitude and discretion between being accomplice to the secret murder of a high-ranking Jedi Council member who you never truly trusted and openly leading clonetroopers to the Jedi Temple for the express purpose of eradicating every single Jedi, no matter how young, as an enemy of the Republic that concerns me.

    It might well have been a calculated decision, but that in no way shows that dark side twisting was not already at work. After all, Palpatine has presumably been years on the dark side and nearly everything he says and does is calculated.

    If I might throw out an idea, I think the first stage of dark side twisting is very subtle: The dark side feeds upon your strongest passion and magnifies it until it's all-consuming. You then merely find it's suddenly very easy to wholly convince yourself of any number of lies and deceptions if these can further this end.

    Thus Anakin goes from being normally worried about his wife and unborn child--determined to save them, yes, but not blind to his other troubles--to completely and totally focused on just Padmé to the exclusion of everything else. Before he heads to Mustafar, in his farewell talk with Padmé, he brushes aside all her concerns and questions (What about the Jedi Temple? What about Obi-wan? Are the Jedi really traitors to the Republic?) and spends his time staring at her and coming back to the point that she's going to okay, that he's going to save her, on and on.

    And I think his shedding of tears on Mustafar indicates that he does, indeed, have remorse for what he's done. He regrets having to kill the Jedi, but he won't let those feelings stop him from doing whatever he has to do to save Padme.

    Agreed... except it doesn't quite square with the belief of most posters on this thread, including me, that Anakin is pretty much gone to dark by the time he's standing there brooding on that ledge on Mustafar. Well, I can accept it as Vader subduing Anakin's last gasp of conscience.

    I don't think that Palpatine himself had a hand in the actual twisting of Anakin. I think he just manipulates Anakin into choosing the dark side and lets it do it's thing. I'm not even sure that Palpatine knows that the dark side will twist Anakin. He has, after all, also been twisted by the dark side, so it's unclear if he would be aware of the twisting effects of the dark side. But it's really not important if Palpatine plans for the dark side to twist Anakin or if he's just so enamored with the dark side himself that he thinks that dedicating himself to the dark side is the only rational choice for Anakin to make.

    Hm. That's an interesting concept. I think I can accept this explanation. Palpatine just seems very controlled and conniving compared to Anakin, so I naturally assume he knows what he's dealing with in regards to the dark side. Then again, Dooku was also a quite, well, classy villain, and it's difficult to explain his behavior without resorting to "he was blinded by the dark side."

    Perhaps one reason, though, why Palpatine was able to accomplish so much through the means he chose is that he did realize the nature of the dark side and took precautions so he could use the dark side without it using him. Much. That could even go a ways explaining why Palpatine apparently became, er,
     
  17. neutralsideforce

    neutralsideforce Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2005
    I wonder if the birth of Anakin in that planet has something to do with the effects of mind tricks on natives.
     
  18. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003
    I think I probably agree with that. I was just throwing that idea out there for consideration, I haven't given it much thought myself, and would have to see AOTC and ROTS again before I could come to a definate conclusion either way. But I would suppose that any twisting done by Anaikin's earlier run-ins with the dark side would have to be slight enough, due to the briefness of the situations, that it wouldn't make a greatly visible difference. It's just been too long since I've seen AOTC to be sure if there is any change in Anakin after he slaughters the Tuskens or not. After he does, he expresses that his view that Obi-Wan is holding him back, but I don't recall if that is significantly different to how he views Obi-Wan before that point. I think that I would probably reject the idea if I considered it further, but it may have enough support in the films that someone could use it to help explain why Anakin is taken in by Palpatine in regards to the Jedi being enemies of the Republic. That is, if they don't find the other explanations satisfactory.


    I don't think it's a major disagreement at least. I think the twisting starts just a little later, when he marches into the temple and starts killing Jedi. The way I view the dark side's twisting effect is basically this, the dark side is fueled by negetive emotions, such as anger, fear, selfishness, etc, and the longer someone dwells in these emotions to further their power in the dark side, they become more twisted and no longer see things the way that they are but rather their perspective is skewed. As Anakin uses the dark side to try to save Padme, and the power itself becomes more important to him, he can no longer look at things rationally, when Padme says that she can't follow him down the path that he's chosen he immediately concludes that she doen't really love him, he can't see the truth of what he's become. I guess all I was saying is that I don't think that pledging to use the dark side in the future is enough for it to have an effect on one's mind, but rather that one must actually use the dark side, emerse themselves in it, for it to twist them.


    I think the main difference is that betraying Mace was an impulsive decision used as a last resort to save Palpatine's life, thus his shocked reaction. Where as leading clonetroopers into the temple was planned ahead of time, thus he knew exactly what he was doing. If he had thought ahead of time that he had to kill Mace so that he could have saved Padme, and thus planned accordingly, his reaction would have been different. I guess where we differ is that I can believe that Anakin has arrived to the point where he will agree to kill the Jedi, to save Padme, all on his own. And something about the dark side twisting someone without them actually using it doesn't quite sit right with me.


     
  19. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    gonvick
    I would suppose that any twisting done by Anaikin's earlier run-ins with the dark side would have to be slight enough, due to the briefness of the situations, that it wouldn't make a greatly visible difference.

    Well, thinking it over, I feel I could accept that Anakin followed Palpatine's orders for the Jedi Temple massacre with minimal influence from the dark side if these previous brushes with the dark side--the Sand People incident in particular--and the Clone Wars were seen as psychological preparation for accepting aggressive violence as a legitimate way to vent strong emotions or respond to perceived threat. However...

    I think the twisting starts just a little later, when he marches into the temple and starts killing Jedi. The way I view the dark side's twisting effect is basically this, the dark side is fueled by negetive emotions, such as anger, fear, selfishness, etc, and the longer someone dwells in these emotions to further their power in the dark side, they become more twisted and no longer see things the way that they are but rather their perspective is skewed. [snip] I guess all I was saying is that I don't think that pledging to use the dark side in the future is enough for it to have an effect on one's mind, but rather that one must actually use the dark side, emerse themselves in it, for it to twist them.

    For the most part, I agree with this. And it supports my new pet idea that Palpatine, and later OT Vader, appears relatively stable and very, very canny because he largely restricts himself to using the dark side for foresight and influencing the minds and emotions of others as opposed to more overtly aggressive uses (like Force lightning young Jedi to death) that draw heavily on the strength of his passions.

    Yet, IMO, pledging to the dark side does allow the dark side to influence you. Not much, perhaps, but it's also not a negligible effect. I imagine it's much like having someone whispering constantly over your shoulder: "Do it, Anakin. Do it. Use me. Take my power." Brushes with the dark side make you more aware of the dark side's presence; pledging to the dark side is the culmination of many brushes and, as a result, you become open, more so than before, to the temptation of using the dark side. Once he's Sith, Anakin hears the dark side more clearly than ever, and its power is seductive and there for the taking. Use me, use me, use me. In short, the dark side eggs Anakin on in his decision to go through with the Jedi Temple massacre. And, as in the peer pressure scenario, this makes it that much easier to take actions he wouldn't otherwise.

    At this point, Anakin can definitely still turn back. It's only after he chooses to aggressively use what power the dark side offers that the major twisting of his soul (or whatever :p) begins and he starts to unhinge. From this point on, I don't really have any arguments with you. :)

    I didn't mean to imply that a Sith apprentice could be easily discarded for minor reasons. Such a decision would have major consequences, and would be a great inconvienence. But a Sith master wouldn't have a problem making that choice if the apprentice was more trouble than they were worth...

    Oh. Agreed. Though I find it mildly amusing to think of Palpatine as being just plain lazy. "Damn it, I've already gone through three apprentices in the span of two decades, and now I've got to do it all over again?! I don't wanna! <pouts>" :D

    I wonder, though, whether Palpatine feels anything toward Vader beyond what the hand feels for the tool. After all, he did spend a good decade grooming this kid from the time Anakin was nine--and this while he had an apprentice. Then there's his line to Yoda, bragging that Vader will become more powerful than either of them, and perhaps his only human moment in the entire Saga--his reaction upon finding crispy!Anakin. As a Sith and disciple of the dark side, worshipper of power, I think Palpatine maybe takes a sort of possessive
     
  20. gonvick

    gonvick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2003

    That seems seems like a reasonable enough explanation to me. I think I still prefer to believe that using the dark side starts the twisting, but I don't have any real problems with your view on the issue.


    I think at the time of ROTS, and before, Palpatine does see Anakin as more than just a tool to accomplish his goals. I think he's genuinely fond of Anakin and proud of him for what he's become. That wouldn't have stopped him from destroying Anakin if he had chosen differently though. It's a selfinsh kind of feeling, much like Anakin's feelings towards Padme, that's rooted in how useful Anakin will be to the Sith remaining strong. Which is pretty much what you said, so I think we agree on this. I think Palpatine's feelings change after he realizes the extent to which Anakin is weakened by the results of his fight with Obi-Wan. By the time of ANH he knows that Vader won't live up to his potential so he's dissapointed in him and has no problem with the idea of replacing him. Of course this could tie into the debate on Anakin's creation, because if Palpatine used the power he spoke of to create Anakin, it would make sense that he have a certain feeling towards his creation beyond that of a tool.
     
  21. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 8, 2004
  22. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 8, 2004
    When Anakin (and R2*) fly up to Padme's appartment, after the Jedi Temple assault, he lied to Padme about a *few* "key isues", as any guilty party who wanted to remain on the "good side" of his beloved would.

    Although, he *was* technically, unaware of the nature of Obi-Wan's loyalty, despite the orders his new Master had given him, he could probably figure it out; and that's not something he'd be likely to tell Padme, who he wanted to 'protect from the truth', as most mobsters, crooked cops, and outlaws are wont to do.

    Here's the key, though: The Sith Mind Trick twists its victims mind, but its effect is less powerful when the Master is not present, and some manner of limited autonomy is available to the apprentice. With Palps on Coruscant, Vader freely exposes, to Padme, his desire to sieze power, and kill his Master on Mustafar. That ties in perfectly with the throne room scenes in ROTJ. However,

    Vader has always wanted to kill Palpy, but his very physical presence is strong enough to dissuade his desire for galactic domonation. Vader appears the Lap Dog, simply because Palps is in the throne room. "I *must* obey my Master!"

    Why didn't Vader kill Palpatine in his sleep, or something like that?

    Who says he hasn't tried that, and been foiled in the past?

    * I wonder where R2 was during the Jedi Temple massacre... perhaps, R2 is complicit in the Purge?
     
  23. DMWseeker

    DMWseeker Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2005
    THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER, I have E-mailed you some time ago, and yet you still have not responded to my offer. Thus, I must yield incentive to reply to my message.

    There is further indication that the concept which is the central theme of the thread is legitimate, though it has not been refered to in the extensive text. If I divulged the evidential factors that would solidify the belief in the concept of the "Sith Mind Trick", you would need to reply as hastliy as possible to the message I sent to you.

    Please, aid me in my effort, and I will provide the aforementioned benefits.
     
  24. Drac39

    Drac39 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Palpatine didn`t need to use a "mind trick" he was smart enough to twist Anakin himself

    And if Watto wouldn`t fall for a mind trick then Anakin wouldn`t.

    Anakin joined Palpatine because he wanted to! No excuses
     
  25. mjerome3

    mjerome3 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 11, 2000
    I agree. A mind trick, whether by a Jedi or Sith for that matter, does not work on the weak minded. That would confirm what Anakin told Padme about mind tricks working on only the weak minded. Obi-Wan tells Luke the same thing.

    What Sidious is doing is just showing Anakin a hint of the dark side's power. Suddenly, by the time SIdious take his seat, his voice is normal again.
     
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