The Sith Mind Trick

All this is relevant in establishing that the Dune series was a source of elements for the development of the Star Wars story. Please read the text in its entirety.

In the series of novels, the story is set in the future. There exists a feudalistic empire encompassing all of humanity within its boundaries throughout the universe, ruled by a central monolithic power of the Emperor. The maintenance of the inter-stellar civilization is predicated upon the use of the drug called melange, or "spice" (KESSEL SPICE RUN), as it grants its consumer a degree of foresight, thus enabling the navigation of the folds of space as the stellar vehicles traverse through the universe, and allowing certain individuals that can endure the "Spice Agony" to attain all of the memories of their ancestors, as they are retained in the genetic strands in their cells. The spice is exclusive to the planet Arrakis (the surface of which is entirely arid and desert) (TATOOINE), which is called Dune by the natives of the world, who are the Fremen, a semi-nomadic race (SAND-PEOPLE).

The initial protagonist, Paul Atreides (ANAKIN SKWALKER), and his family were relocated to Dune. He dwelt there in relative comfort until the opposing Harkonnen nobility assaulted their residence, inducing Paul and his mother, Jessica, to flee into the desert. The mother was an adept of the Bene Gesserit (JEDI ORDER) - a female order that excelled at mental arts and physical conditioning to the extent that they have attained abilities that seem to be magical to ignorant observers such as the capability to utter a command at a pitch and tone that coerces the individual into compliance (MIND TRICK). Additionally, the Order used the spice to allow their advanced initiates to become aware of the memories of their ancestral line. The Bene Gesserit believed Paul to have been produced of a selective breeding program that would supply for them a male called the Kwisatz Haderach (CHOSEN ONE) with the powers of the female Bene Gesserit, with the potential to acquire the personas of his genetic ancestry, and extensive prescient capabilities, though far surpassing the female members. It was made apparent that Paul was the goal of the Bene Gesserit's methods, though they did not have influence over him, and Paul became the Emperor of the Empire through acquiring the devotion of the Fremen, who proved to be the most effective fighters ever encountered. The Fremen yielded their loyalty to Paul Atreides due to his accordance of qualities with a prophesythat detailed the arrival of a youth that would liberate them form the arid climate of their world (PROPHESY OF THE ONE WHO WOULD BRING BALANCE TO THE FORCE).

During his imperial reign, Paul and his lover, Chani, produced fraternal twins, a girl named Ghanima and a boy name Leto II, though she died in birthing the children (LUKE AND LEIA SKYWALKER) These offspring inherited the prescient abilities of their father, and there are indications that they surpassed their sire, due to the capability of prediction that Leto II displayed.

Subsequent to the death of his spouse, Paul retreated into the desert in the last sequence of one of the novels to circumvent his partaking in his vision of the future. Years later, his son, Leto II, traversed into the desert to retrieve Paul and force him to aid him in his alternate path that he would set humanity upon, and dissuaded him from his self-imposed exile (OBI-WAN RESIDING IN THE DESERT UNTIL LUKE ENCOUNTERS HIM AND INDUCES HIM TO AID IN THE REBELLION).

 

What directly pertains to the theory that was postulated by THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER is the part of the story concerning Paul's sister, Alia Atreides.

As indicated earlier in this text, controlled consumption of the spice can induce the memories of our ancestors to enter our frontal awareness, with each member of the linage encapsulated within the mind of the consumer. However, the personas that exist within the consumer are distinct from the one that is unique to the body, and their intents are not necessitated to accord with the will of their body's mind. An individual Other Memory could potentially surmount the conscious of the sole awareness and control the body, though this rarely occurred, as most instances of the process of inciting the Other Memories are undergone by a fully trained Bene Gesserit, with a substantiated mind that can endure the attempts of their ancestors to overtake them. However, the Lady Jessica partakes in this process while pregnant with a second child. While she is awakened to the memories, the child is also made aware while in her womb. Thus, the child who would be named Alia endured the constant assault upon her awareness of the Other Memories for her entire life, with no opportunity to develop defenses to them.

During a trance induced through consumption of the spice, the memories become drastically vivacious, and assail her mind, threatening to make Alia lose her identity amongst the multitude within her. Near the point where she could not endure the memories any longer, a single individual arose, that presented himself to Alia. This was the Baron Vladimer Harkonnen, who was deceased in person by the time of this instance. During his life, he was a ruthless dictator, who ruled his followers with the precepts of fear and coercion, and was an enemy of the House Atreides, as he had personally assaulted Alia herself, inducing her to kill him. However, his mind was retained in Alia, and made an offer to her, entailing that she would allow only a portion of her mind, and yield to him for short times, to ensure that no one detected her possession, and that she could still have her persona. In exchange for her lenience, the Baron would combine his efforts to silencing the Other Memories, allowing her to be content. Alia complied with his bargain out of desperation, for she could not tolerate the persistent intrusion of the Other Memories into her awareness. However, due to her yielding to the Baron, Alia begins to partake in the cruelty and tyrannical rule that the Baron utilized, as the Baron is altering her beliefs to ensure that he gains control of the Empire through Alia. Progressively, Alia's mind diminishes, and the Baron has almost complete control over her, inducing her to conspire against her family and companions despite obvious incentive to not do so.

Eventually, Leto II returned from his trek in the desert, and Alia engaged him in combat due to his command that she abandon her rule as the imperial regent. Alia initially resisted, though when Leto II implored her to accept his aid in surmounting her possession, the Baron spoke through Alia, and demanded that she remain within the boundaries of the bargain. Alia strive against the Baron in her mind, and in the realization that she has fallen to deeply into the influence of the Baron, she struggled to acquire the control of her body, and cast herself out of a window, thus destroying the rule of the Baron with her sacrifice.

It is readily apparent that George Lucas had this instance in mind when he made the story of Star Wars. The parallels included the volitional yielding to a malicious tyrant for relief from a distinct displeasure. Though not a direct correlation, it can be surmised that Alia?s desire to be released from the torment from the other egos is equitable to Anakin?s effort to ensure that Padme endures. There is also the element of the death of Alia, who, being persuaded by Leto II casts herself out of a window, thus effectively ending the influence of the Baron, which can be attributed to Anakin casting Darth Sidio

 

Additionally, there is another example of the concept of altering the beliefs of an individual to accommodate for the intent of another in the Dune novels.

The sword-master, Duncan Idaho, had served the Atreides as a lieutenant, and in his service had developed affection for the Duke of the House and his son, Paul. In the first novel, Duncan was killed while defending the ducal heir and his mother. The corpse was recovered by the Bene Tleilaxu, and utilized the genetic material within him to create a ghola of Duncan Idaho, which is essentially a clone that has a limited access to the memories of the source from which it was made, though not a complete knowledge of the original ego. The Tleilaxu presented the ghola, whom they endowed with a new name, Hayt, as a gift to Paul Atreides, anticipating that he would accept him due to the fondness he had for Duncan is his youth. However, the Tleilaxu hypnotized the ghola to kill Paul. When Hayt encountered the specific triggers that induce his unvolitional, the psyche of Duncan Idaho resisted subconsciously, as he had come to love Paul before his time as a ghola. Duncan struggled with the ghola, and became distinct from that other ego, until they merged, and Idaho had assumed the mind again.

This could also be the material that Lucas viewed to outline Anakin Skywalker?s surmounting of his dependence to the Emperor. Both Annkin and Duncan Idaho suffer signifact injuries and are refromed in different methods, with Duncan Idaho being restored inn part as a ghola, and Darth Vader being revitalized with the aid of technolgical apparatus. Hayt is coerced into slaying Paul, whom he had loved as Duncan Idaho, and due to the affection that the original persona had for him, Idaho dissolves the hypnosis he had undergone. Darth Vader could be considered a distinct mind from Anakin, and if this is accepted, the parallel is more substantial, as Darth Vader was made to watch an individual die, thus indirectly causing his death through not interfering, though the mind of Anakin was stirred due to the love he had for his son. Thus, Anakin overcame Darth Vader in an almost identical process as Duncan Idaho surmounted the mind of Hayt.

Regardless of your acceptance of the data I have outlined, it is irrevocably true that Lucas extracted several elements from the Dune novels to structure the story of Star Wars. The fact that brain-washing is a factor within those novels and that it could be interpreted from viewing ?Revenge of the Sith? indicates that it was an intended perception.

Inform THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER his theory has been saved, and notify him that I await his response to my message.

 

I've only read the start of this thread, but I thought you guys might find this excerpt from the novelisation interesting.
It's the last part of chapter 10: Masters.
Palpatine has just explained to Anakin he is putting him on the Council.

"I... am over-whelmed, sir. But the Council elects its own members. They will never accept this."
"I promise you they will," Palpatine murmered imperturbably. He swung around in his chair to gaze out the window toward the distant spires of the the Temple. "They need you more than they realise. All it will take is for someone to properly..."
He waved a hand expressively.
"..explain it to them."

It sounds quite mind-trickish, doesn't it.

The problem with the overall "Sith mind-trick" theory is that it would make us unsure at which stages Anakin has free will. However, I do think there was something unexplained going on in the scene where Anakin pledges himself to the darkside.

 

If thats the case, why doesnt Sidious mind trick some of the senior jedi masters and make them jump out of a 25th floor window?

LOL

 

Drac39
Anakin joined Palpatine because he wanted to! No excuses

That may very well be. THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER and I are merely suggesting an idea that patches what we believe are logical inconsistencies in Anakin's turn. I can't say what Lucas intends, and he might blow this whole theory out of the water, but that's fine. If you don't have to resort to this complex an explanation to fully believe in Anakin's turn, great! This theory is for those of us that have trouble. No matter what happens with canon, I feel I have, well, a plausible fan retcon to fall back on. That's a nice feeling. So, in short, I do all this for my peace of mind.

mjerome3, Hypernova: For the nth time, please, please take the time to read at least the latest pages of the thread before jumping in the discussion. This theory is not the same as the Jedi mind trick; any impression of such is a... quirk of the thread title and the general subject matter. The twists and nuances of the theory are quite hard to follow---hence 15 pages of debate---but I assure you various proponents account for the fact that Sidious doesn't "mind trick some of the senior jedi masters and make them jump out of a 25th floor window."

DMWseeker, wow, that's quite an essay on the parallels between the Dune series and SW! However, though it's a great example of this sort of mind manipulation idea being used in sources similar to SW, it doesn't prove that such a concept is actually in SW itself. For that, I think you need to look at what's given in the Star Wars canon. Still, I want to thank you for your contribution. I feel your essay is well written and shows a lot of intelligent thought. A very enjoyable read.

i_dont_know
All it will take is for someone to properly..."
He waved a hand expressively.
"..explain it to them."

It sounds quite mind-trickish, doesn't it.

A bit, yeah. Though Palpatine could've just been waving his hand around.

Anyways, my point is that the theory doesn't require that Sidious use his mind manipulation all the time or on everybody. Since in this particular scene, he's talking to Anakin, I could believe that he's... leaning on Anakin a bit.

The problem with the overall "Sith mind-trick" theory is that it would make us unsure at which stages Anakin has free will. However, I do think there was something unexplained going on in the scene where Anakin pledges himself to the darkside.

Yeah. Lord knows we on this thread have spent pages arguing about that whole free will thing. And, yeah, it's the feeling that something is unexplained or missing that drives me, too.


edit: You know, i_dont_know, your excerpt makes me wonder if there's anything else in the novelizations that could argue for or against the Palpidious mind manipulation theory. The books are high-level canon, and since we've pretty much exhausted interpretations of the films, I think they might make good secondary material to open new debate with. Darn it! I wish I had the novelizations with me...! ^^;;

 

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the Dark Side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says 'I will become more powerful than every Jedi.' And you'll hear later on Dooku will say 'I have become more powerful than any Jedi.' So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying 'I'm not going to let this happen again.' We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more

 

I surmise that THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER has abandoned us. Can anyone verify that? I wish to contact him to ensure that he responds to a message I sent him.

 

To Yeade,

I am not certain that you interpreted the text correctly. I demonstrated that Star Wars contains many details that originated with the Dune novels. Those similarities are not coincidental, if you have discerned them to be, as Lucas has intentionally used those aspects in his plot. We have expended the "Star Wars Canon" of any relvant data that could clarify the theory. Thus, I refered to a source of the films and discovered those instances. These two occurances accord with the circumstance of Anakin Skywalker to a great extent. In order to accpet what I have detailed, you must perceive these instances as relating to Anakin, and that Lucas made the scene with the recollection of the incidents of brain-washing in Dune. The credibility of my claim is supported by the multitude of examples of emulation of the Dune series in Star Wars. The brain-washing element could be regarded as one of those similarities.

Also, do you know if THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER will reurn to this forum?

 

Yeade, prepare my shuttle. I sense Lord Moonwalker is in danger.

 

Same with Anakin -- Dooku was a Sith Lord that was behind assassination and execution attempts on Padme. So he turns to the same organization that was trying to kill his wife to prevent death?

Chalk it up to lust for power overpowering logic.

I guess this was pointed out though

 

DMWseeker, yeah, I think THE_DARTH_MOONWALKER has left this thread. I don't know if he'll be back, but I think he was tired of arguing the same points over and over so... no, maybe not. That said, I'm becoming a bit weary of this myself. I think... okay, I'm bugging out, too. After this post.

darth-sinister
Anakin was seduced by the allure of power. It's what drives his ambitious desire to be the best and to cheat death. Anakin turned quickly because he wanted power. Pure and simple.

Yes, I agree. Again, realize that this Palpidious mind manipulation theory largely doesn't dispute what Anakin's character flaws were and how these led up to his turn; its focus is on the process of turning itself and what happens afterwards. I, um, really don't have much else to say about this that hasn't already been said a dozen times over the course of this thread. I do ask that you note we've spent a lot of time picking apart all of Anakin's weaknesses, tracing those back to their roots, and figuring out how Sidious pried them apart to his benefit.

DMWseeker
I demonstrated that Star Wars contains many details that originated with the Dune novels. Those similarities are not coincidental, if you have discerned them to be, as Lucas has intentionally used those aspects in his plot. [snip] In order to accpet what I have detailed, you must perceive these instances as relating to Anakin, and that Lucas made the scene with the recollection of the incidents of brain-washing in Dune. The credibility of my claim is supported by the multitude of examples of emulation of the Dune series in Star Wars.

While your argument of the parallels between the Dune series and SW are good, the evidence is not conclusive in this case, I feel. The similarities between SW and many, many other sources are not coincidental, but I think the whole idea of SW is that Lucas selectively combined ideas from all over the place into a new whole. Which is to say that while such-and-such might clearly be drawn from this-or-that source, that isn't a guarantee that another different aspect of the same source was also included. I hope I'm making sense.

...well, it's been fun. So long.

 

Thus, the last guinding force to the postulation of the theory passed on, and the recollection of contact with the Darth Moonwalker was gone.

My purpose to have enbridled myself within this thread is irresolute now. I shall have to utlize a different method of contacting the Darth Moonwalker.

Darth Moonwalker (DMW) Seeker

 

Yeah.

 

Watch the end of ROTJ - in fact, watch that whole movie - its very clear that Vader is under the mind control of Sidious. But by this point - Vader is aware of it. Tragically, he also knows there is nothing he can do about. That is the conflict in Vader. He still has a good side trapped away in there - and he knows it. "It is too late for me, my son." [/quote]

I agree with that and this thread is a very insightful one but Darth Moonwalker let's take it back one movie to Empire, pre-PT days. Well right up until the set-up of the PT ("I am your Father!")

Vader was BRILLIANT in that movie, in fact ESB's Vader is the Vader I relish more than any others because up until that famous quote, he just seethed CONQUEROR. Even when he revealed to Luke his geneaology his spoke it with the same breath that held my favortie Vader quote of all time... "You are beaten, it is useless to resist!" He didn't say it out of love, or desperation("Luke, come on man I really screwed up with your Mom man help me out here!") He said it with ferocity, intensity, as a foe unmatched in his OWN right. It was as if up until that point he was a self-made Victor of the battlefield who soaked up each conquest with entusiasm. In other words, he was Donald Trump, not the apprentice. Even with the Emperor ruling the galaxy and his every move, he was a devious, overwhelming mastermind, not some remorseful mental cripple/slave. That is what is so weird about Anakin shedding tears on Mustafar and your theory of how he already realized his mistakes then, and then fast forwarding 28 years to ROTJ and saying he was realizing his faults there too. I say it makes no sense that he shed tears so quickly after he shed blood with the ESB portrayal in the back of my mind, and believe me, any future viewers of the Saga will also think, 'Wow, he really seems to be enjoying this Dark Side trip...' ESB more than even the original SW solidified Vader in the Villain hall of fame (if there were one) because Vader was to be FEARED, not suffered or sympathized with.

ROTS's main flaw was that you just felt sorry for Vader. I never developed that "Man I would hate to run into THAT dude outside of the Cantina!" from the movie.

 

Vader isn't under mind control in ROTJ. He's facing a personal crisis. He has two loyalties. One to his Master and father figure. The other to his own flesh and blood. Then you've got the fact that he doesn't know what to do, because a good part of him feels that he doesn't deserve to be saved. And the other part wants to be all powerful.

"Luke is therefore urging Stoic wisdom upon Vader when he tells him to let go of his hate. Unfortunately, hatred has had such a viselike hold on Vader for so long that he tells Luke: "It is too late for me son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." For servants of the Dark Side, the true nature of the Force is servitude to evil, enslavement to hate. Like virtues, vices tend to control one's behavior. Vader has used fear and hatred to achieve his ends for so long that now the superior hatred and aggression of the Emperor use him. That is how Vader's mastery of the Dark Side is at the same time servitude to it."

--Star Wars and Philosophy, page 27.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier, Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

 

This is not over.

To those who doubt the passed Darth Moonwalker: view the novelization of "The Revenge of the Sith", namely the instance where Anakin complies with the intent of Darth Sidious. Therein resides the validation of the Moonwalker's idea. It would have been better if it was refered to long ago, though now it will function effectivly.

The content indicates with defined specification that Anakin was induced by Darth Sidious to restructure his belief and expunge his doubts through viewing himself as distinct from the perception. The text will clarify the implication upon being read.

Do not doubt me, Darth Sinister. There is no ambiguity that remains.

Now, the debacle will end.

 

Hey, is this thing on?

 

You should give a page # and really a quote if you're going to go calling people out. I read the novel and quite honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I have not acquired the novelization, though I read the instance where Anakin yielded to Sidious to discern any indication of this theory. And do not be dense, the alteration of his beliefs is readily apparent.

 

And to the Chozen1: Not many know what I am talking about at all

 

I hav'nt read all this thread, but i will offer my brief input to it, and i think this could be another one of these "from a certain point of view" type things.

First, ask yourself what a mind trick is. It's a suggestion or influence against the other persons will.

Mind tricks only work on the weak minded, we know that much. So i think it's safe to say that if palps actually tried this, anakin would sence it, and possibly the other Jedi. remember,Palps has been keeping his force usage to a bear minimum so as not to blow his cover.

So if you look at it from that evidence, Palps could'nt mind trick anakin with the force.

However, he can use very powerful persuasion technichs, and by bending the truth, stroaking anakins ego, building up anakins arragance and misstrust by using simple words and a snake like charm, you could say Palps used a mind trick of sorts, he tricked anakin into believeing whatever Palps wanted him to believe and without resorting to using the force to aid him, by using his strong mind.

So from that point of view, Palps being of stronger mind and cunning stratagy, DID trick anakin into taking the path Palps wanted him to. So you could say anakin was mind tricked . . . from a certain point of view of coarse. :0)

 

Lord Turkey, you are unwise to make such claims without viewing the majority of the thread, you animated wookie scum.

 

#1 that's flaming on Lord Turkey for no reason. #2 if not many know what you're talking about and this is a personal vandetta (which it appears to be) you should take it to PM's rather than the public boards.

 

TheChozen1, you have just made my list.