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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Sith Order Planning Thread/ Vol 2

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by The Rover, Dec 13, 1999.

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  1. The Rover

    The Rover Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 1999
    Ol'val.

    [SK - This is not in truth a Kida thread, but a Hernault thread. The original discussion was spawned on the fifth page of Forum1/HTML/017039.htmlClone Wars = Jedi Rebellion? What follows is actually Hernault's proposal, although he is too modest to bring it to a new thread himself to expose his idea to the audience it deserves. The words are his own, with only very slight editing to bring together three separate posts into a concise single one.]

    It is all so assumed on faith that the Force is religious in nature ? when ancient cultures worshipped objects which were clearly scientific.

    Would anyone go an inch to entertain that the entire existence of the Force is the result or byproduct of hypernanotechnology spawned scores of millennia before the foundation of the Republic? Namely, that midichlorians are the remnants of a 'species' of symbiotic engineered nanolifeform that was used to enhance some aspect of life? The technology died out but the symbiotic lifeforms didn't, and merely exuded an effect which later scientists/mystics with poor understanding could only define as the 'Force'. The whole Star Wars shebang may only be the most eloquent portrayal of what was essentially a conflict of interest in the dining on ashes of a 'Once Great' society.

    Did the Force exist before bioengineering? Scores of millennia before the Republic, were the MC's created as nanobiotechnology which could subsist on the lifeforce of living beings, be it electrical/chemical or some other method? I think the MC's were the beginning of the Force. As enough MC's were put into enough lifeforms, they began to communicate on their own level, having no effect on their hosts. But after more time, the cumulative effect of the sheer number of MC's became something with which some people could interpret and interact.

    Then something happened where the details of the technology were lost. Perhaps the Star Wars galaxy was the first experimental colony to test the use of MC's. In any case, somehow documentation of the actual process. Perhaps the original 'Jedi' tried their best to begin assembling together what lost knowledge there was - but by the time of Star Wars, the population as a whole was already impregnated with the MC technology, the latency of MC's has all but vanished, and the power of this 'Force' has been left in the hands of a chance few. The Force, as a mystical quantity, was now symbiotic with "all living things", even if the occasional Hutt, Toydarian and Ysalamiri were impervious to its effects.


    The floor is open ?
     
  2. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    It seems reasonable. After all, the age of galaxies is such that this would be extremely plausible. Of course, the fact that Midichlorians whether they are natural or artificial exist does not detract from the mystical, religous nature of the force. Science and Religion can coexist. Perhaps this previous race/power's tampering with the nature of the Universe and Life caused something chatostrophic. Perhaps the origns of the Dark side Destroyed them.....
     
  3. Jedi15

    Jedi15 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 1999
    Ol'val, Shar Kida!

    I like your theory, and it sounds very interesting. Personally, I hard a hard time swallowing the whole midi-chlorian idea at first, but now I don't mind it. Who knows; maybe we'll learn more about this in Episode II.
     
  4. MacTusken

    MacTusken Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 1999
    Hello..

    Good for you Kida. Hernalt's ideas on that thread deserved more consideration than they got, and I plead guilty for not giving him the time of day.

    Today as it happens, time is rationed for me once more. But I shall return...
     
  5. Fat midi-chlorian

    Fat midi-chlorian Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 1999
    Hi, Kida

    It´s an interesting theory, but only a theory. Many things are assumed: midis created by technology, implanted in all living forms, tecnology died(?)... and many things remain unexplained: dark side, what sort of communication...

    I´ll think a little and perhaps i´ll post something...
     
  6. Shar Kida

    Shar Kida Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Ol'val.

    One point of clarification: this is Hernault's hypothesis, not mine.

    My own ideas in the matter, while related, do differ in a few crucial details -- but I will wait to post them until Hernault's concept has been discussed directly by other JC members on its own merits, without biasing input from me.

    Kida
     
  7. NamelessAlien

    NamelessAlien Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Yeah they were developed (unintentionally) as byproducts in the era of Genetically Modified Organisms and the technology was lost in the war that broke out after WTO (later renamed Trade Fed) negotiations were thwarted in Seattle by a mysterious guy called Sid

    Actually I think GL was too busy to come up with some other theory of force-sensitivity to show that Anakin was really an extraordinary boy.
     
  8. Fat midi-chlorian

    Fat midi-chlorian Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 1999
    No, definitively i don´t like the Hernalt´s theory (at least this one). For me, the less we mix the midis theories with clone wars theories the best (i´m a pacifist ).

    I don´t need a scientific explanation of the Force. It rules without it. The Force is there, it was always there. I believe Lucas doesn´t pretend to explain the Force via the midis. As has been said numberless times he´s explaining Force sensitivity not Force itself. Thus, the explanation should be from Force to midis, not from midis to Force. I hate to quote myself but i posted a theory on that in other thread two days ago and i cannot think anything new, so i´m pasting some lines from there:
    What i want to say is that midis could be an effect of being chosen by the Force and not a cause of being able to communicate with the Force. If Force choose a guy it would force his organism to create midis. The higher the mission the higher the midis count.
    IMO midis haven´t introduce anything new in SW, but if my theory is true, i think the Force would appear even more overwhelming for his power of choosing his own instruments.

    And back to Hernalt theory, i´ve just thought that the line "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist", refutes the whole theory: he assumed life existed before midis were engineered.

    And now, it´s time to your thoughts...
     
  9. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    I don't think one way or the other that the Force itself has any form of conciousness. The Emaculate Conception not withstanding.

    The Force is the force, it exists. Perhaps the Midichlorians sense things a create patterns in the force for their own benefit. (ie, perhaps they needed balance in the force). but the energy field that is the force is not an entity, or a collective, it has no goals, no plans, no expectations.
     
  10. Plurimus

    Plurimus Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 1999
    Delving into the upper reaches of the philosophical. Sounds pretty plausible, but I don't like it when contemptorary society explains the mystical as a function of technology. Technologists have tried for centuries to explain the inefable through ones and zeroes. I don't have a problem when analogies are used to help understand or explain faith, but in another way it's rather insulting (not that your intention was to insult) to a person's faith and intelligence that sentiment can be reduced to mere calculation. I have a similar resistance to scientific explanation. While I respect and enjoy the understanding science has given us, it has reign in the physical world, not the speculative world of faith and belief.

    My 2 Cents
     
  11. one-fan

    one-fan Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 1999
    "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist," is Qui-Gon's line, I believe. All that tells us is what Qui-Gon believed to be true.

    I still don't understand why having the midi-chlorians be nanotechnology of a vanished science should make a difference to the story. If the midichlorians are necessary to life, then Hernalt is wrong, and they are a naturally-occurring phenomena, of which some living beings have more than others. Genetic variation alone would account for this. If the midichlorians are, as Hernalt suggests, nanotechnology of a vanished race, they could still have to be more or less biologically transmitted.

    The question lies in whether or not the midichlorians can be separated from an individual, grown on their own, and then used to enhance another's ability to manipulate the Force. If, as Hernalt has said, they are artificial to begin with, this may be easier, although our own cell manipulation and growing technology suggests that growing and cloning "natural" cells isn't all that difficult. The second thing is whether or not an artificially raised midichlorian count will allow enhanced ability to manipulate the Force. Since the ability to manipulate the Force depends at least partly on cognitive ability (we haven't ever seen or heard of animals or plants using the Force, EU notwithstanding), there is some connection between the brain of the user and the user's midichlorians, that may or may not exist between the artificially added midichlorians. In either case, natural or nano, the question is not what the midichlorians actually are, it's what they do and how they do it.

    I listen to the cells of my body all the time, and right now they are saying, "If you don't get some sleep, we are going to make you very sorry."

    Good night.
     
  12. NamelessAlien

    NamelessAlien Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Oops.

    [This message has been edited by NamelessAlien (edited 12-20-1999).]
     
  13. Hernault

    Hernault Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Thanks, Kida.

    Nameless Alien - "Actually I think GL was too busy to come up with some other theory of force-sensitivity to show that Anakin was really an extraordinary boy." I agree.
    One-fan - ""Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist," is Qui-Gon's line, I believe. All that tells us is what Qui-Gon believed to be true." I agree.
    One-fan - "I still don't understand why having the midi-chlorians be nanotechnology of a vanished science should make a difference to the story." I don't think they would, either.

    The undercurrent I tap is the frustrated disbelief that Lucas had to go and introduce science at all into a beautiful, mystical, Eastern picture which was presented in Empire Strikes Back. Yes - that movie, in this instance of considering the Force, deserves to be spelled out in full. Because what Lucas did is exactly what we all do with our little compression spellings "ANH" , "ESB" , "ROTJ" - by introducing science to explain what was perfection, he boiled the life and joy out of the most exquisite picture, leaving us mere labels of former appreciation which which to now refer to our ex-beloved "Force". Has anyone seen Anna and the King and floated upon the similarities with Star Wars of architecture, dress, landscape? If we hail to the serenity of Dagobah, and Yoda's timeless instruction of Luke in the ways of the Force, we observe the high standard, the high plateau from which Lucas stepped with his Midichlorians.

    So if he wants to play hardball, hardball he will play..

    Now, other science-minded JC have worked hard at desperately hammering out an explanation or apology for why he would go and do something like that, but the finest efforts of the finest minds have not yet answered all to satisfaction. What I posted elsewhere was just my attempt at articulating the present dissatisfaction, and in taking the apologetic debate one step farther, by going one step backward in time and causality. There are many who will loyally stand by Lucas, who is also known as King George, and will not effront him by daring to question him or his vision, or needlessly petition him for clarification. Then there are others.

    Although I claim no religion but life itself, I cannot disconnect valid spiritual concern from the Star Wars universe. I am certain that in it there are countless beautiful and terrifying religions aside from belief in a "Force". Any JC who chooses for themselves to believe unequivocally that in the Star Wars universe the religion of the Force was, is, and always shall be potent and pertinant is exercising a <snicker> god-given perogative. I believe this is called taking it at 'face value', and the movie Contact (C Segan) brilliantly instructs that religion is as subjective as Relativity. So the vanished-technology proposal is offered, not for those satisfied with the current state of affairs, but for those who cannot abide it. It's bad enough we got Binx with the deal. Yes, I recently read Thomas Paine - 'Common Sense'.
     
  14. one-fan

    one-fan Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 1999
    H, you seem sort of upset. The following rambling discourse is intended to make you feel better, but if it doesn't, please ignore me. (I had trouble over the double-bladed light saber, of all things, until I realized that it didn't make a real difference to the story),

    I'm not crazy about the midichlorians, but neither am I disenchanted; Star Wars is full of bad science, but I just ignore it (I am a scientist by trade), and get on with the archetypical truths, and the story (That's my societal contract with GL-he does movies, and I do my thing, although I'd be glad to give him science advice if he wants it). I suppose it might be more difficult to forgive bad metaphysics than bad physics.
    I don't see that giving a "scientific" explanation for the ability to use the Force "boils the life out of a beautiful Eastern concept," any more than having it be heritable destroys it.

    Meditation has predictable, measurable, physiological effects; does that mean that the mental or spiritual benefits of the practice of meditation don't exist or aren't important?

    You might also consider this: suppose that the TPM Jedi are wrong about the midichlorians, and that a high midi count is a result of using the Force, rather than an indicator of ability.

    Lastly, science is a human endeavor, as much as any other activity. It is far from perfect, but science is not the enemy of religion, philosophy, mysticism or any other human activity. When a scientific explanation for a hitherto unexplained phenomenon is discovered, it doesn't change the phenomenon. Depending on the person hearing the explanation, it might change the feeling of the person, but the fact that an explanation exists has no effect on the phenomenon itself.

    ("This is a course that deals in facts. If you want truth, philosophy and religion are down the hall." Indiana Jones)
     
  15. Jedi Eowyn

    Jedi Eowyn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 1999
    I'm still hoping that the midiclorians are only part of the force equation. From the first trilogy we have a field that connects all life. It informs Jedi when things are generally wrong. It informs Jedi when things are really wrong. A Jedi makes a "disturbance" in the force which another Jedi can know and feel. What if the midiclorians are only about certain things (like reacting before things happen) but not about others (like connecting to the great mystical field that connects all living things)? Perhaps with Anakin's fall we get a vision as to how the midiclorains are and are not indicative of the force.

    I'm still holding on to my hope that the midiclorians have led the Jedi to an understanding that there is a mystical field out there, but the Jedi don't realize yet that the midiclorians arn't the only way to connect.

    OK, I wish someone had stopped Qui Gon on the street and asked him a few questions. Has the MC level been monitered in Jedi over a life time? Does it drop or rise ever? (Are the MCs the cause or the effect of Force Use, and if they are the effect, then they would rise when force use rises?) Secondly, if the MCs have been damanged, but nothing else, how does the person's force abilities change? How does the person change? (are the midiclorians essentially a crutch?)

    Qui Gon does not have as many MCs as Yoda, and yet Qui Gon is standing up to Yoda, and persuing a different plan vis a vis Anakin. This is my piece of proof that the midiclorians are not the only piece of the puzzle necessary to force use. (Yes, I am assuming that Qui Gon was more correct than Yoda in TPM.)
     
  16. Hernault

    Hernault Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Funny.

    H doesn't feel upset.

     
  17. Fat midi-chlorian

    Fat midi-chlorian Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 1999
    one-fan said:
    You might also consider this: suppose that the TPM Jedi are wrong about the midichlorians, and that a high midi count is a result of using the Force, rather than an indicator of ability.
    God bless! At last i find somebody with my same opinion about midis. Now i can rest in peace...

    And Jedi Eowyn has an echo of that in her post!!
     
  18. scott2eyez

    scott2eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Please could someone explain how they figured that "Midichlorians are a scientific explanation of the force" because all I saw was a logical extension of what we have already seen. It doesn`t conflict with anything from the original trilogy.

    i think the problem seems to lie with the way that the Force has been linked with a tangible, physical presence- it can be `proved` that someone is strong with the force (when actually it doesnt, otherwise Anakin need not be trained as a jedi, as he is already `more powerful` than Yoda.)

    Considering this, in ANH there is no evidence that the Force exists. Han Solo doesnt believe in it at all, Owen Lars thinks Obi Wan is nothing more than a crazy old man, the officer on the death star talks about Vaders `sad devotion to his ancient religion.`

    Then the first thing (practically) we see in ESB is Lukes lightsaber flying through the air, despite him having had no instruction between the films (Obi Wan being dead and all). Dont you think that sort of thing would have changed the opinions of the Solos, the Owens etc?

    So (Scott2eyez tries on a basher hat) Lucas really screwed up with ESB. He must have been on crack. He totally demystified the force, ruining a beautiful eastern somethingorother bringing in science... ruined the saga.... and stuff... Jar Jar... kids.... computers... erm.....

    Scott2eyez realises that the basher hat doesnt fit him very well, and throws it back to TrueJedi, or something.
     
  19. scott2eyez

    scott2eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Jedi Eowyn
    It informs Jedi when things are generally wrong. It informs Jedi when things are really wrong. A Jedi makes a "disturbance" in the force which another Jedi can know and feel.
    I wouldnt agree with any of this. I dont think the force tells anyone anything. I see it as more of a universal connecting... thing, that goes above space and time. Getting in touch, or in tune with it lets you see the future, places far away, "old friends long gone" and all that. I dont think there is a wrong and right in the force. I see that as an element of the human (or gungan or whatever) world- how the Jedi ( or whoever) interprets the knowledge that the Force brings.

    i think the line about how to tell the good from the bad- "When at peace you are. Calm. passive" is the key to it all for me.

    As for the `disturbance` thing, I dont think its a Jedi thing- I think everyone makes there own little impression in the force. i see it like fingerprints (weak analogy, but bear with me)- if you know the fingerprints of an evil man, you can associate them with evil. But if you know the fingerprints of every evil person apart from one on the planet, its not going to help you if thats the person you`re looking for.

    Its kind of hard for me to explain, as its all down to personal interpretation, philosophy etc. etc. and I`ve probably contradicted myself somewhere.
    No two people are going to see it the same way, which is one of the beauties of the Star Wars films- clear enough to relate to, but vague enough that no-one will object to.

    (Until something new is introduced 20 years later that goes against some interpretations, but not others....)
     
  20. Jedi Eowyn

    Jedi Eowyn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 1999
    scott--I've not come up with a good answer yet. I'm thinking force connection is like two people in water making ripples. When the waves move from one person to the other--that's a connection by way of the force. When Vader knows that Kenobi is on the death star, I think he's sensing the ripples. That to me seems like communication.

    I'm thinking some people are more aware of the ripples than others, like an extra sense, and these are the "force users" for lack of a better term.

    But I'm guessing this is where you and I differ. I'm guessing you say the water is the force and I'm saying the ripples are the force. ??? If I'm wrong, sorry. I'm not trying to misunderstand our differences.

    You have the surfer image to explain the force on the balance-the-force thread. It's an image about water and waves, like mine. But in your image the wave is so big that it and the water are not distict, whereas mine are?

    Back to Hernalt's theory above. Neither of us is disagreeing that some element in the blood stream may be a left over element from technology lost? (I don't think we're disagreeing with that?)
     
  21. Shar Kida

    Shar Kida Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Ol'val.

    -- And here come the delayed opinions. (Thank you, Hernalt, for finally posting!)

    The midichlorians may well themselves be products of bioengineering -- not to create the Force (which arises out of life itself), but to enhance personal sensitivity thereto. Perhaps by this point the bioengineered symbiosis has evolved to the point that several species of life (sentient and otherwise?) might not be able to survive in the absence of the midichlorians, as is indeed the case with mitochondria (presumably not bioengineered, but definitely symbiotic). This interpretation also allows for one's midichlorian level to be an indicator, not of personal potential, but of aptitude. As has already been noted in this thread, it may even be that midichlorian level may increase over time and "usage," a type of postive feedback cycle. (Such increase would certainly help account for Yoda's high midichlorian count.)

    So long as MC count is taken as an indicator only of innate aptitude, not ultimate potential, it serves in the capacity of useful barometer, identifying those who are likely to learn the ways of the Force with less difficulty. Once aptitude and potential become confused, however, the MC count becomes a crutch delineating a strict arithmetic progression: high MC count, high potential; low MC count, low potential (= do not bother training). Like so many things with the Force, the MC count has become its own limitation.


    We ourselves forge the chains that bind us.
    - Dicckens

    [This makes the fourth time I have had to edit to eliminate asterisks - SK]

    [This message has been edited by Shar Kida (edited 12-23-1999).]
     
  22. scott2eyez

    scott2eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Jedi Eowyn
    I guess you`re right, in that I see the water in the analogy as the Force, but if you cant see the water then you wont see the waves, so its pretty much the same thing (I think.)

    What I was trying to get at with the surfer analogy was more to do with the different attitudes of the Jedi and the Sith towards how they use the force, with the calm, passive Jedi using it for knowledge and defense, as opposed to fear, anger and agression. i`m still trying to come up with a good description of the Dark side though...

    I dont really like the idea of midichlorians as an experiment in the past, because of the parallel between midichlorians and mitochondria- a symbiosis that started in the distant past that allowed life to exist in the way that we know it, and we know that Lucas likes his symbiant cycles...
     
  23. Hernault

    Hernault Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1999
    I'll pose this: Are most parties happy with taking The Force as a real phenomena which has always existed in the Star Wars galaxy? If so, are such persons concerned or disturbed by this difference our galaxy has to the Star Wars galaxy, or is this issue nonexistent by dint that Star Wars is fantasy and ours is not? The thing I continue to wrestle with is that the JC debates high and low the remotest virtue or virtually every character, and yet the question of the historicity of the Force has not to my knowledge been brought to light yet. I don't mean the existence of the Force - we all know it exists in the here and now, as we do that it existed at least 20K years ago when the Jedi order first came together to study it. I'm talking about this: do any avid JC have a conception of what the Force was long before the Jedi or the Republic? I think that's my best way to broach it.

    Did the Force always exist? Did it exist with the creation of the Star Wars universe? Or.. was it introduced into the SW galaxy? I can see where people wish to quickly answer this question away with a, "SW is just a story." But then such persons return to favorite threads and do righteous battle for details which might not even occur to Lucas, should they ask him. Is the Force something which exists in our plane, our galaxy, indeed, our planet - that we cannot use and access because we don't have the MC's and training? Or, is this phenomena local to the SW galaxy, thus having its very lifeforms and symbiotic relationships tied up with it? I can say that it seems contrived to me but I am respectfully answered by persons who say it's just a movie, and then go and debate their firey particulars on some other issue. Is there a simple truth about this I'm missing?

    The best I can do to integrate the SW vision into my own understanding of reality is to have this Force hammered out into a contiguous cause-and-effect. Whether it's divine in nature is besides the point - if Lucas wants the Force to truly be divine, then that can work, but then why would it be in a single galaxy. Or... is it in Only One galaxy? I guess plenty of questions convene on this one issue: how real is the SW plane of existence. It's somewhat less difficult to rationalize the human characters and their actions, as we all have authority to analyze and pass judgement.. But we don't all have authority to cast judgement on how Real the nuts-and-bolts outworkings, or hardware of SW is. And the Force is included in these props, because that's what it is - a prop to Lucas' story. It is not a character, it is not a landscape, it is not a special effect. It is a prop. Did this prop always exist in the SW galaxy? I guess there Are no definate answers, but any other thoughts?
     
  24. Fat midi-chlorian

    Fat midi-chlorian Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 1999
    I´m not sure if i´ve got your points, Hernault, but here are some thoughts.

    Yes, for me the Force is a prop in SW films. I don´t think we can compare the existence of Force in SW galaxy and in others (our).

    Force is in that galaxy as a metaphor of many things in our galaxy: God, symbiosis, inner peace... what you want.

    About Force historicity in SW, i keep assuming that Qui-Gon´s line about "without midis life could not exist" denies all chance of a world without midis (in SW universe). Yes, perhaps that´s only what Qui-Gons and all Jedis believe, but if we have to think they may be wrong i´d prefer to think their mistake is that of seing midis as mediums to Force communication rather than the effect of Force acting in living bodies. Its "fingerprints".

    When you´re ill, the defences of your body grow (sorry i´m not a physician). When you have the Force, the midis in your body grow.

    Oh, i´ve just realize that make me such an ill midi-chlorian :eek:
     
  25. scott2eyez

    scott2eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Well, I see the force as having existed for as long as life has, as it is generated by all living things. I think it can be changed, corrupted etc. for the same reason- hence the "balance" issue.
     
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