~~~The Snake Pit~~~ METAL GEAR SOLID Discussion Thread

Well, I typically don't venture into the Gaming forum, but I absolutely *had* to rant about how very much I'm looking forward to Snake Eater and my...reservations about Twin Snakes.

Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater looks to have everything going for it. The gameplay looks *superb* so far. Aiming in first-person mode looks to have been streamlined and made more authentic, evidenced by the way the players' weapons can be held both at the ready and in actual aiming mode. Very nice. No more random guessing about when letting go of the trigger would discharge your sidearm or when pressing just marginally harder than normal to let loose an unintended burst of rifle fire. Hopefully, at least.

The environments look gorgeous, to point out the painfully obvious truth of the matter, and the degree of interaction appears to be top-notch. When blades of grass are individually being moved by the players' arms in low-crawls and leaves are getting shot in midair during skirmishes with the Russians, you can color me impressed. And I'm just going to let the water effects speak for themselves. Wow. Simply wow.

The inventory management system remains a mystery, but I have visions of a Halo-esque two-weapon system dancing through my head. This isn't supported by much more than the fact that we only see the main character use three weapons other than grenades and the knife--the M1911A1 pistol (in both stock and suppressed renditions), the M16A1 rifle, and an unidentified sniper rifle, which I assume to be a Dragunov SVD based off of the prevailance of Communist bloc weaponry (AK47 rifles, Skorpion machinpistols, et al) in Snake Eater and the set up of the scope's rangefinder.

In short, I am wholeheartedly looking forward to MGS3, for any number of reasons. Hideo Kojima, you've gone and done it again... And getting Harry Gregson-Williams to do the music again was an act of unspeakable awesomeness.

Anywho, as for Twin Snakes, I have reservations.

MGS1 was simply awesome. Sure, its gameplay is currently outstripped by the squel's, but that's hardly a fair comparison. At the time, MGS1 was as good as it got. Period.

That's where my newfound hesitance comes in. Having reviewed Twin Snakes' preview trailers, I can honestly state that the game suffers from the same flaw that Sons of Liberty had--an inability to make me suspend my disbelief.

It's hard enough believing that one man with M67 hand grenades can disable--let alone survive the encounter with an M1 Abrams main battle tank, or that an Indian shaman can somehow heft an M61A1 Vulcan gatling gun and ammunition, or that there's a bonified psychic that attacks with only the power of his mind (and various furnishings). But MGS1 was able to present the subject matter in a manner that made it possible to suspend my disbelief and accept that the events *could* happen.

Not so in Twin Snakes, I'm afraid.

Snake fighting hand-to-hand against Meryl, fine. Snake thinking that he can somehow pose a threat to her by blindly pointing a MK.23 Mod. 0 at her with his back turned is...well, silly. He then follows up this act with a rendition of the old "I can somehow move faster than a guided missile" two-step, when he 1) survives the detonation of a Russian-designed anti-tank missile by turning around and running from it and, 2) leaping over a second one and stepping on it in mid-flight, twenty feet above the ground. Three words: Blatantly. Physically. Impossible. The coup-de-grace, however, comes when Snake kicks a PSG1 rifle into the air, dodges a bullet (fired by one of the world's foremost snipers, mind you), spins around, jumps, and then grabs the rifle in mid-air and somehow accurately fires the weapon, fatally wounding Sniper Wolf. I'm sorry, but no degree of training can make a person capable of that--especially with a rifle of that kind and with those optics.

Essentially, I'm rather afraid that the team (silicon Knights)

 

Brett_Bass: You make some really good points - especially about MGS1's ability to allow you to forget that half the things going on are impossible in reality. And MGS3 does look superb.

As for the remake, it IS annoying that they're putting it on the Gamecube, just like the new Resident Evil game and the remake of the original. I suppose you could argue that its a way of bringing in Nintendo users to the MGS franchise but in all fairness it should be on the PS2 because the fans deserve it. But I'll probably get a GC and the game anyway simply because GCs are so cheap now and there are other GC-only games I want (such as the Legend of Zelda and the upcoming Final Fantasy game).

 

I think the point they're trying to get across Brett is that Snake is the clone of the greatest soldier that ever lived. PLUS all his soldier genes have been enhanced to the point where he's a perfect killing machine. Some of the stuff has to be taken with a grain of salt (missile surfing) but the snap shot with the rifle is quite possible considering the range. Did you ever see the shooting feats of quick draw Mcgraw? He was on ripley's believe it or not and did things with pistols I thought were physically impossible, i.e. hitting two targets in differents directions so fast it looks like one shot (the targets simultaniously vanish), hitting super long range targets with a 38. snub etc.

 

Its just a Video Game its not meant too be taken literally, if it was how do you explain the moron Genome Soldiers that can never find Snake while searching for him or that spot him and call security putting on a Red Alert throughout the entire base and after only a few minutes of searching for snake they assume hes left the base or forget about seeing him and go back to normal security measures again?

"Base we have an Intruder!Red Alert" 5 minutes later:"We searched the entire base but couldnt find the mysterious intruder even though he killed several guards and shock teams,we assume he was wounded in combat against them and died but cannot find his body,so he might have escaped the base or hes still here in hiding and we are just to stupid to be able to find him despite the fact hes bleeding and we have throughly searched everywhere for him" "Base we located the intruder but he ran through a doorway and got away again without a trace,we did however manage to find Two missing Guards that had been shot in the head with a Tranquilizer Gun,they were hidden in the Locker Room and had no idea how they ended up being knocked out in the first place,their perfomance review's are coming in shortly......"

 

I realize that I might be diving into the real of subjective tastes, but MGS1 was just real enough to be believable yet just fantastic enough to be entertaining.

I think that Twin Snakes is running the severe risk of ruining that balance between plausibility and positive gameplay. I realize that it's just my take and all, but I'm just callin' 'em as I sees 'em.

In stark contrast, Snake Eater looks badass. It looks awesome, promises to play awesome, and most definitely *sounds* awesome (thank you, Harry Gregson-Williams!). I'll take a serious look at Twin Snakes, but I'm not looking forward to it half as much as I am looking forward to Snake Eater.

 

Hear's a neat article that analyze's MGS2 as "Post Modern Gaming":

http://www.insertcredit.com/features/dreaming/index.html

And here is my e-mail in reply to it:
Hi there,

I read your article "Dreaming in an Empty Room" (http://www.insertcredit.com/features/dreaming/index.html) and found it very interesting, however there are some points I would like to address.

I have to disagree that labelling Metal Gear Solid 2:
Sons of Liberty (MSG2:SoL) as post modern.

The fact being that in order for something to be "post modern" there has to be a "modern" stage before it. Now admittingly the entire "modern" era of art, technology, etc. (approx. 1850's - 1950's) affected every aspect of culture in one way or another. It was so engrossing that most things in our culture could be considerd post modern. Post modernism has become such a broad and powerful state, that little in this world is not affect by it. However with video games, I must disagree.

The video games origins could be related to the "genre" of board games in some ways. Monopoly was a game that could be considered "post modern" (according to the article) considering that quite often it had hints and clues to itself that it was a board game.

But I digress, the fact being I see the games that you mentioned more relative to a "modern" era; not post-modern. True games like Earthbound and MGS1 are breaking down barriers, but no in the true post-modern way, because post-modern is essentially not breaking down walls, but more of taking a small pick axe to the rubble of broken down walls.

The only other problem I see about claiming MGS2:SoL to be post modern is because it's a game. It's primary function is supposed to be entertainment/fun. I know that you touched upon the idea how games are in it's infancy therefore only a few games have the post modern idea, but the point being there are plenty of similar activities whose sole function was "fun" or "entertainment" who haven't seem to follow a natural progression to "post-modern"

Even though you might have implied "clumping" the medium of gaming with other similar mediums of literature, movies, tv and espeically art, I see a different problem.

Those mediums initially had different purposes as opposed to gaming. Literature was a mean of records, education, then entertainment (as you mentioned) and social commentary. Art was a means of visual record until the invention of photography. It was then, when photography replaced art as a visual record, that art started to enter the modern era, defying traditional concepts because it's traditional use was moot.

The point is, games have one purpose to the audience. Fun. I realize you mentioned that games are still in their infancy but what about other things whose sole/primary purpose was for fun/entertainment? Ancient sports? Board games? Etc. How come these mediums of "fun" haven't exploded into a post modern area?

It's by no mean stagnation because sports are still exciting. Board games have been around longer than video games and yet they haven't entered a post modern era.

The thing I see is that the similarity of board games with video games can be related by a few things. Primarily it is fun. This point is sort of moot because fun is subjective and as you can see, you enjoyed MSG2:SoL more than the majority because you can see an aspect of "fun" in it. However regardless, this idea is still a dominating concept.

The second thing, which I think is possibly more important, is the idea of extensive research and "praticality".

In explaining this I will use art as an example. The thing is, art being post modern now is no longer bound by the "praticality" testing of the past. Brush strokes, a still hand, a keen eye, a mallet and a chisel are no longer needed the to create most post-modern art. However to say to some degree, there is still some residue of "praticality" that is needed. Bills need paying, studios need cleaning, supplies need buying.

However with video games, as you can see the process in which to create a video-

 

Interesting analysis, I must say. Well thought-out in all regards.

I'm not saying that I *agree* per se, but I must awad points for historical research.

My little thing is; if you think that the Metal Gear Solid series' point was to entertain, I suggest that you re-evaluate... I've gone through both games my fair share of times, in addition to reading a lot of Hideo Kojima's interviews... I don't think that I would be alone in stating that MGS is about getting its creators' political views on war, nuclear proliferation, the truly important things in life, and the like into a larger forum.

Just my two cents, make of it what you will.

 

I don't think that I would be alone in stating that MGS is about getting its creators' political views on war, nuclear proliferation, the truly important things in life, and the like into a larger forum.

I very much agree with that assessment.

I'm interested to see what he may or may not have to say about the cold war. If indeed, MGS3 takes place during the 60's. Hideo may even delve into topics about the Vietnam war...I mean Snake is fighting in a jungle. Alright, maybe I'm stretching.

 

I was just thinking, I kno you can download different camolauges on the internet, can you become a hippie?

 

Why not. I'd prefer it to the tuxedo.

 

As much as I disagree with Hideo Kojima's position(s) on nuclear weapons (no inaninate object can be 'evil' as he states through the mouth of Nastasha Romanenko in Metal Gear Solid) and the like, I do agree with his ideas about what is genuinely important in life. Your genes don't predetermine your destiny--it's up to you to make your own path in life.

I'm hoping that Snake Eater isn't just another lengthy, ill-informed rant about how the Veitnam War was 'bad' or 'wrong'--we've got Oliver Stone and, essentially, the rest of Hollywood to do that for us. What I would like to see is an exploration of the origins of Metal Gear weapons ("Even the technology that created this weapon is Russian!") and what exactly made Big Boss decide to go rogue, establishing his 'Outer Heaven' and 'Zanzibar' regimes...

That's just me, though...

 

I am thinking about getting into MGS. Should wait and get Twin Snakes and then buy Substance or should I play Substance and then get Twin Snakes when it comes out?

 

First of all, while Sillicon Knights is bringing over MGS to GameCube, Kojima is behind it 100 percent and what goes in the game, he approves.

In fact, SK is porting it over and remaking it, but the game is very much a collaboration between Kojima and Miyamoto who are both the creative forces behind this game. We get two great talents behind a good series... working together,

And please, stop whining how it's an insult to Playstation owners. Please.

First of all, the Metal Gear series did not start on Playstation.

Metal Gear (MSX, NES)

Metal Gear Solid (MSX, Famicom)

Metal Gear: Snake's Revenge (NES)

Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel (GBC)

The series began on Nintendo and the MSX.

Konami doesn't owe Sony anything as much as it owes Nintendo anything.

And Resident Evil. Again, it was never a Sony Exclusive,

Resident Evil started out on BOTH the Sega Saturn and the PSX.

Resident Evil 2 was slated to come out for the Saturn... but we all know what happened to that.

Res Evil 2 also came out for N64 a year after it came out on PSX.

So, in the series, the only one's that were truly exclusive to the PSX for a little bit, were ResEvil 2 and ResEvil 3.

Because ResEvil: Code Veronica and Code Veronica X came out for Dreamcast as an exclusive.

PS2 then got a port of Code Veronica X later on.

Yes, we got exclusives now for the series. But so do you. You guys are getting the kick ass ResEvil Online. Do I whine? No.

So again. There are no loyalties. Kojima wanted to bring it to Nintendo. And most of all, he wanted to team up with Miyamoto.

The first 6 Final fantasies were on Nintendo. Yet I bet if Nintendo got any of the future installmnets Playstation fans would be in an uproar because FF belongs to just them.

It doesn't.

Now, if I saw Mario on Playstation or saw one of Playstations first party games on Nintendo... that's a different ball game.

But this is not the case.

And BTW, it's a video game. Solid Snake can do a mid air twirl while changing outfits and I can care less along as the gameplay and stealth remains as great as ever.

The series was never realistic. They were really out there on the NES and MSX and MGS, especially plot wise, was unrealistic. MGS2 was the prime definition of convoluted plot and unrealism... yet it was fun as hell.

It's a game. Who cares if his move is not possible?

 

Brett_Bass: What I would like to see is an exploration of the origins of Metal Gear weapons ("Even the technology that created this weapon is Russian!") and what exactly made Big Boss decide to go rogue, establishing his 'Outer Heaven' and 'Zanzibar' regimes...

I agree with that 100 percent. Actually I'm confident we'll see most of what you've outlined, Brett_Bass in Snake Eater.

 

i may have to buy another PS2 again just because of Snake Eater. oh well, i have always liked this game.

 

Have they given an official release date yet for Twin Snakes ???

From the impression I got, it's scheduled for an Early Winter 2004. Possibly Febuary or March, does that sound about right to anyone??

 

Yeah that sounds about right to me too. I'm pretty sure that last I read, the date was said to be around March. But remember, this game was delayed from it's original release of Xmas '03, so don't be surprised if it slips a litle further into the new year.

 

hey i think snake eater is going to rock, and twin snakes, well its a re-make, but ill pla it none the less. Has neone heard nething on the realse dates for either.

As for the character in mgs snake eater, i looked on the video previews, and saw two eyes(no patch) is it possible this is where big boss gets his eye injury?

 

yeah, it is. I've seen two diiferent trailors. They both showed the dude with both eyes and then later with one eye

 

The tentative release date for Twin Snakes is March 4, 2004.

Word is the game is playing great and they're just ironing out the bugs and trying to get the frame rate up to a steady 60 fps.

So, hopefully it's safe to say we'll see Twin Snakes come to surface in early March.

Snake Eater will probably come out around the same time period MGS2 came out in November/2001. So I figure November 13, 2004 or something. But, I most certainly could be wrong.

But lets keep our fingers crossed for a Winter '04 release. I need that game bad.

Just a quick question for the MGS fans out there...

In the TGS Trailer, did anyone notice that Snake seems to be making "faces"? I hope this stays in the game. And it appears Snake may be able to weild a gun and his knife at the same time. Now that would be sweet. Close-quarters combat needs to be in Snake Eater

 

I cant wait till Twin Snakes.

And what is this TGS trailor you're talking about?

 

Tokyo Game Show

It's the trailer with Snake wearing the hollowed out gator head.

Did you see it?

 

Han : I do believe there will be close-quarter combat in the game. I heard there would be scenerios where Snake may not have any weapons at times. So I mean, your pretty much out of luck unles you can sneak up behind them and break thier necks or something, LoL! At least I sure hope there is close quarter combat, woudl certainly put some pretty tense moments withen the game.

The realease date seems about right for Snake Eater also, an close to X-Mas Holiday release probably, November-December like you mentioned.

It's awesome to see two GREAT Metall Gear games coming out that I doubt will dissappoint this year

 

I couldn't agree more, Obi-H

You obviously know what I mean by "close-quarters". Have you seen the TGS trailer?

When the "Snake Eater/James Bond" theme music kicks up there are shots of Snake taking on enemies using only his knife and take down moves. I hope that's included in the game.

I imagine the knife will be used much the same way the HF Blade was in MGS2. I'm sure Kojima-San has come up with some sweet moves for Snake.

And since the main character very well may be Big Boss, I'd like to see him as the ultimate fighting machine/soldier. The more moves the better.

Kojima-San is going all out.