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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The split in the saga...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by yoda1982, Oct 11, 2003.

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  1. yoda1982

    yoda1982 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2002
    There seems to be a big split in the saga as far as fans goes, and I believe it goes deeper than just hatred towards the PT and the Special Editions. It seems there have become two factions of Star Wars fans. There are the Traditionalists-fans who love ANH and ESB:they love Vader being evil and they love both those movies. Then,there are the fans of ROTJ and the PT who also love ANH and ESB. I think the big split is that Vader gets redemption. I think that has caused the biggest split. Alot of the PT haters never liked the thought that Vader was humanized, so watching the PT and seeing Vader as a little boy and then a lusting teenager have made them completely hate the PT, for the reason that it makes Vader seem more human. To go even further I think alot of the fans who saw ANH and ESB back as kids saw Vader as a bigger than life monster, so to see Vader go good and also Vader's younger years almost taints there bigger than life image of Vader. So they hold bitterness toward the PT. Most fans who hate ROTJ hate the PT. Alot of fans who love ROTJ seem to like the PT as well. As far as the saga goes and fan reaction goes I believe that is one of the biggest splits. Any thoughts?
     
  2. ValinFett21

    ValinFett21 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2003
    You have a lot of good points. I can't really say either way but I think that something that you didn't mention should be added in there. The notion that the force and being a Jedi is matter of being born 'special' is something that many of the original fans of the very first movie don't like. I think many people are annoyed by the fact that the mythic weapon of the OT, the lightsaber, is kind of trivialized(IMO, the theme of losing your lightsaber should be shown in Epi III as a symptom of disobidience and carelessness, which would restore somewhat of a mythic feel to it).

    I don't think the PT movies are as good as the OT, but I never though they had to be. I still enjoy them, but can't wait for the OT on DVD!
     
  3. Obi-HaCoR

    Obi-HaCoR Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2002
    I have to agree with some of these points as well from others and need to add some as well :)

    I think the reason for some people not liking PT is that it doesn't have the same "feeling" that the OT established. Those that grew up with great performances by Harrison Ford as Han Solo, the wookie Chewbacca, the amazing space battles and such, see the PT as watered down from the original trilogy. The dialogue has certainly changed to where the "interaction" between the actors and such aren't the same any longer.

    Also liek ou commented on the Vader situation, I mean when you watch ESB for the first time before the PT came out......the realization of Vader confessing to be Lukes father shocked us all. Now with the PT coming out, the OT ans know that it is now goign to be harder to achieve more fans and have them experiance the same feelings because..........well it takes away from the original now. Everyone will know before hand that Luke is Anakins son...therefore, the affect of ESB won't be as, if at all, dramatic and suspensful that it was meant to be.

    Little situations likehat cause splits and all the "contridicting" storylines now that have changed the OT from what it once was thanks to the PT. Also, some peopel think George has lost his touch (I'm waiting for Ep. III before I comment on that :) )

    But yeah, I see the split as well. The Younger crowd as well seems to favor the PT, seeing as how it was created in thier time frame, so the PT is "thier Trilogy" while the older crowd who appreciated Star Wars before the PT, had "thier trilgoy" as well, the OT. iT'S JUST all confusing!!! 8-} Personally I am a bigger fan of the OT, then PT, But certainly give AOTC my second place best Star Wars flick :) ESB being the first!
     
  4. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    These points make good sense Yoda1982.

    I love all of the films. That does not mean I love them all equally. While I enjoy the prequels I prefer the original two. I find ROTJ boring and the worst of them. But I have no problems with Vader as a child. I think it makes his character better.

    Darth Seldon
     
  5. DarthNimraa

    DarthNimraa Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2003
    I think that the whole split thing is an understandable theory. My take on OT and PT is that I love both of them. I mean come on I will always love the OT because it is Star Wars, it is the template for all sci-fi movies nowadays. But my whole thing with the PT is different. I love the whole idea of seeing the Galaxy's greatest villain Darth Vader as a 9 year old little kid. Seeing him like that and then seeing him as a teenager just adds to his story so much more. Now we can see why Anakin became so evil, what drove this once promising Jedi to the Darkside. I understand everyone's beef with the PT the whole Jar Jar Binks thing, but come on Jar Jar was annoying but he was needed because he is just Jar Jar nuff said. And getting to see Darth Sidious apprentices before Vader is great, Maul was his apt pupil and he failed! Tyranus was a rush job and he went the whole nine yards...and now we see Vader the man once called Anakin Skywalker the Chosen One...we see his "Descent Into The Darkside" and then in the OT we see how evil he has become...but in ROTJ we see Anakin come back, and that doesn't make him weak because NO ONE EVER came back from the Darkside before and that makes him a badass plus he also kills the Emperor the strongest Force user in the Galaxy!
     
  6. Captian_Jack

    Captian_Jack Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2003
    I definatly agree with Obi-HaCoR. The younger generation sees the PT as theirs, While the older generation feels very connected to the OT.

    I believe that the two different trilogies are being made in two very different styles. The PT has a very clean and polished look to it. Everything looks new, and the rusty, gritty, grimy feel of the OT (which I prefered) is not present. The "used" universe appearance of the OT is gone, and that is what helped fascinate audiences twenty years ago, and kept them fascinated ever since.

    As for Vader, I agree that most fans of the OT had their own ideas of who he was before he turned, and we've nutured those ideas for many years. Sometimes it can be hard to accept that the backstory is not what we invisioned.

    However, I strongly believe that Vader's presence has been sorely miised in the PT. Most people did see him as the ultimate bad guy, and we loved to hate him. The PT is lacking any villians with the strength of character that Vader had. I have often heard that a hero can only be as good as the villian is. In the OT, the heros seemed so great only because they were up against such a formidable opponent.

    In defense of the PT, I really don't think that it will ruin any surprises in the OT. "I am your father" has become such a part of pop-culture that I doubt there are very many people who won't know it before seeing the movies. My girlfriend hates these movies and refuses to watch them, and even she knows Vader is Lukes father.
     
  7. jediknight88

    jediknight88 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I dont see a split.

    We all know that Star Wars is Anakin. That is who the sage is about. He is the balance in the force.

    The Ot showed the Evil Darth Vader, and We see Vader get redemption. the only think that I think the PT show Anakins trials and tribulations.

    I mean....I think the whole saga is supposed to be about Anakins trip to Jedi Knighthood through his downfall to the dark, and then him bringing balance to the force.

    Just my opinion.
     
  8. MikeSolo

    MikeSolo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2002
    I've noticed the big split in the fans of SW. I'm on the side that enjoys both PT and OT movies. Their all the greatest movies,IMO, made....right up there with Kevin Smith movies n Braveheart.
    I remember would Lucas always compare SW to the Flash Gordon movie n Saturday Matinee flicks. Thats how I see these movies are suppose to be, just some fun fantasy flick you watch on saturday morining while eating capt crunch :p
    I find it funny when some fans talk about the OT ( Orginal Two ANH and ESB) like it was so great they blew away the Academy Awards by winning best picture best actor, actress supproting actor n actress,and so on . The OT most known for a break through in special effects and its impact on pop culture. The PT is doing the samething maybe not in the same way the OT did but still having a impact.
    I remember reading a quote GL said went something like " The fans grew up and the movies didn't" he hit that one right on the nose.
     
  9. Storm2904

    Storm2904 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2002
    The fans grew up and the movies didn't

    Amen.

    Over the past few years I've never seen so many overgrown babies attached to their keyboards who whine and complain about Lucas and the PT as if they have been raped by the man himself.

    It is almost an embarrassment to even be posting on a site like this after seeing the mountains of trash, bile, and excrement being thrown at Lucas and LFL simply because LFL was going to send ANH:SE to some film festival recently. (Has anyone seen the profanity being thrown around on AICN? You'd think Lucas got away with murdering their li'l sister....)

    Ooooooh....notify the president to go to DefCon 1, Terrorist Threat High. This is just too critical. Lucas must be stopped, or he will begin raping our children of entertainment too.

    [face_plain]

    I have found that casual but solid fans of the movies like myself have no business on sites like this one. Some people (most notably bashers) just haven't been in the real world yet and would rather stay in a GFFA (preferably during the Imperial era too).

    Consider this my last post. Thanks, TFN. It was fun!
     
  10. ForceMaster101

    ForceMaster101 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2003
    I don't see the split in the saga. I love the OT and the PT equally. I don't like how many people hate Star Wars because Vader is not the villian. I love all the Star Wars movies alot. Nothing(so far) can change that!
     
  11. Ekenobi

    Ekenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    I see a little of the split. I am one who likes both OT and the PT. Could not love one with out the other. But After EpIII I will refuse to separate the saga. For me once the last episode is out I will referr it as the SW saga. No more OT and PT because it is all one saga not split in two. SW EP I-VI. And if those that hate the PT , fine. I will enjoy 6 SW movies and you can just watch 3.
     
  12. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    I like them both, and there are two kinds of people who annoy me: those who hate the prequels because they are different from their own preconceived notions, such as those saying "Anakin should have been darker," "the clone wars should have started in Episode I," etd. The others are those who say Lucas raped his childhood. I don't care how bad you think the prequels are, they can't ruin the originals. Only a special edition can do that.
     
  13. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    If ROBOCOP 2 couldtn ruin the original ROBOCOP, no sequel in the world can ruin the original.
     
  14. TheEliteFetus

    TheEliteFetus Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Sorry people, but you can count me in the ANH and ESB camp. Lucas was at his most creative when he brainstormed w/others. The last three movies are silly, redundant, and weak. Many like the maturity and the natural progression that was attempted w/ANH and ESB. If the fans have changed through the years then so has Lucas.
     
  15. Tukafo

    Tukafo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2002
    I believe it's far more complicated than that.

    First of all, independent of any storylines or characters, I believe the PT is far far inferior to the OT. Go ahead, blame this on nostalgia or something, but such an argument would miss the point. I believe Alien 4 is far worse than Alien or Aliens. I believe Blues Brothers 2 is far worse than the original film. I believe Robocop2 is a travesty compared to the original film. Are all those opinions simply misguided nostalgia a la "You saw the first Robocop when you were 12 and the second Robocop when you were 15 so that's why you cannot accept Robocop2 as a great film". So can we please forget about that argument

    The second argument used here is that SW is for kids. I'm one of the few who never belived that. A 4-year old can understand Finding Nemo just fine but does he understand Star Wars? He might like ther explosions though. In any case - to argue that we cannot accept the awful dialogue and bad acting and JarJar antics in the PT because "it's for children" is ludicrous. Finding Nemo is for children and I loved it. It doesn't have awful dialogue, bad acting or JarJar-like poodoo jokes. There are many many wonderful children's films out there that treat their audience with respect and don't insult their intelligence, that present a cleverly and wonderfully written story with memorable characters and no "Mesa standa inda poodoo, massa".

    The third point is the question of Darth Vader and making him human. I do believe it's a bad idea because of the type of film Star Wars is. Star Wars is (for the lack of a better word" part of the "trivial film" genre. Don't attack me, I don't mean this in a bad way, I love lots of trivial films. But trivial stories follow certain rules. They don't have characters but rather archetypes. The good hero, the beatiful princess, the evil Dark Lord, the noble King, the loyal friend etc. Stories such as Star Wars only work if they stick to these archetypes, any attempt to "humanize" them makes the story crumble and could never the adequately explained and explored in such a film.
    Example: When Michael Apted was hired to direct the Bond film The World is not enough he wanted to flesh out all the characters. He wanted to make them into realistic people with inner conflicts, complicated emotions and morally ambiguous. The producers told him that he could do that with all the characters in the film except James Bond himself. They argued (rightly I think) that James Bond is not a character but an archetype. He's totally unrealistic, he gets every girl, speaks every language, is extremely cultivated, the best fighter, has great fashion sense, looks cool, is witty, intelligent, charming etc. - in other words - he's exactly what every guy in the audience wants to be like. He's a cardboard cutout, an unrealistic freak who can never exist. But it works. The audience loves him and they accept him. But they only accept him because he is no character and is never portrayed as one. If you would make Bond into a figure with inner conflicts you would immediately destroy everything and the audience would no longer accept him. The only way Bodn works is if you never give him any character traits at all
    Another example: Look at the portrayal of the Nazis in the Indiana Jones films. They're comic book Nazis, ludicrous, over the top and totally unrealistic. But it works in a trivial film like Indiana Jones. Imagine Spielberg had used the same Nazi portrayal in Schindler's List. It would have been a disaster. Different films require different portryals of characters. And trivial films only work if their figures are comic book cut outs.

    Which brings us back to Vader. He as the ultimate villain. The man without a face, mysterious, evil through and through. It worked. Now Lucas attempts something different . Starting with ROTJ he tries to make Vader into a real person, with inner conflicts and moral ambiguity. And the moment he did this he killed Vader. Either you make a trivial film with trivial characters or you make a character-driven film without silly
     
  16. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Well, at least you'll admit that you have a problem with the concept behind the prequels, not the execution, because the bad dialogue you cite is a characterisitc the prequels have in common with the originals. However, the story itself is, by necessity, different. A defeatist story where evil wins is not going to be the same as a feel-good story where good defeats evil. If that doesn't appeal to you, well, your loss I suppose. But at least there's honesty there.
     
  17. TheEliteFetus

    TheEliteFetus Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 1, 2003
    I could have not said it any better than your post Tukafo. Anybody can look at ANH and ESB and realize that those films don't reduce themselves to sillyville. Within the context of those two fims, they took themselves as serious as possible without going overboard on either sides of the spectrum.

    To me, the PT is useless because you could attain all that info by starting w/ANH and beyond. Unfortunatly, Lucas missed the oppurtunity to flesh out those 'void' details (through Luke's journey) that we never knew and decided to wrap the entire saga w/ROTJ. Things seem kinda blank and out of place.
     
  18. Darth_MacDaddy

    Darth_MacDaddy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Tukafo

    Although I accept your well argued opinions, I can't help but think they are just that: opinions. You have explained why you don't like ROTJ or the PT, and valid your reasons are for you. But there are many people who find the humanising of Vader a development of his character, one upon which the whole saga hinges around, just look at some of the posts before you.

    IMO Star Wars isn't a "trivial film" as you describe. The characters are not cut outs just there for viewing pleasure, but are characters with depth and a history. I also beleive Star Wars was always relatable to real life (with the exception of the odd, as of yet, scientific impossiblity, i.e. Hyperspace), the rules under which the people lived were similar to Earth - people lived and died, there were societies that people lived in, there was a system of government, the list goes on. I'll get to my point, that Star Wars works (IMO) because people can relate to the characters in both PT an OT more than is seen on the big screen, and to have probably the most important character in the whole saga (i.e. Vader) with no history would make the whole saga seem empty.

    IMO the PT is essential to understanding the fantastic array of characters we see in the OT, and the way of life that they live in. Both trilogies compliment each other perfectly, and thats without Ep3!! :D

    These are my opinions that are no more or no less valued than yours ;)
     
  19. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    The analogy to James Bond doesn't work. Luke Skywalker, the hero, is not the Bond type who never changes, just exists to solve the problems. Every film take him further in his development. Throughout the old trilogy, he is a boy becoming a man. Who could mistake the mature Jedi from ROTJ for the innocent farmboy in ANH? Even in ESB, he is always learning. Every film brings him closer to being a Jedi.
     
  20. BrotherKenobi

    BrotherKenobi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Two points I'd like to make here.

    First, as the FAQ maintainer for the alt.fan.james-bond Usenet newsgroup I personally feel the attempts to make Bond more human have produced the results I personally enjoyed the most. And I've loved every Star Wars picture for the same reason. Kids can love it, but there's always been a deeper story to it. A story adults can love too. Of course there's more to Darth Vader than pure evil. He's a man, not a machine. Showing Anakin Skywalker doesn't weaken Vader, it makes him more evil, since his actions are that of a mindless monster, but a flawed man who chose the wrong path.

    As such, it has to be admitted that most of us here saw Iv-V-VI as kids. Let's face it, we laughed at the same type of 3PO jokes ("how rude", "overweight glob of grease", "I didn't know I had it in me") that we condemn in I-II. We thought he was cute then. I groan at his lines in II and Jar-Jar in I. But it wasn't Jar-Jar who first said, "How rude." It was 3PO. Our parents shrugged at the type of lines too many crow about now. Lucas didn't change his approach. We simply grew up and see both sides now.

    So I feel it's an invalid arguement to try to compare both trilogies in that sense because you have a natural aversion to nostalgia with the ones you grew up with. You're more likely to forgive faults in the "old favorites" and nitpick over new ideas. (I love all of them, however, call me weird. Or happy.)

    That's one reason I am glad they'll never be a 7-9 trilogy full of all new characters. Can you imagine the criticisms? ("These new characters aren't as good as Luke, Anakin" ad nauseum.)

    Second, while details aren't known about EpIII (Actually many are but we can't discuss them here, oh well) it is safe to say steps are being taken to connect III to IV in tone to move the saga together. I and II have a ten year gap. An approximate 18-20 year gap is coming between III and IV. but once it's out I think everything will flow together.

    Stupid humor, from the little blue elephant creature playing the - what is that called - in Jabba's band, to lines like "This is such a drag, is in evey film.

    Morseo, once complete we'll see the full story. How the Jedi went from the US Marshalls service for the Senate to a relic (hated or forgotten) seen as weak. How a gifted young boy grew to the epitome of evil, and then fulfilled his destiny. How a republic became a dictatorship. How evil fell due to the love of an offspring of someone who was forbidden to ever have any offspring. How the rigid Jedi instruction failed to save them, but the impulsive but empassioned training of Luke saved the galaxy. How a multi-cultured seante gave up their power to a tyrant who ran his empire with species only similar to him. (No other race runs the death star besides Palpatine's own and clones.)

    The only real split that future fans will have is how "weird" IV and V are. IV will have no Yoda or Palpatine. V will have no Tatooine (unless III avoids it too.) IV has no Padme, and no mention of the word Anakin. But hopefully young new fans don't view it unfavorably. I doubt they would.
     
  21. Darth_MacDaddy

    Darth_MacDaddy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Well said. Like it you picked up on the 3PO-Jar Jar similarities, never really thought of them of like that but its true.
     
  22. JediMasterGuff

    JediMasterGuff Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2002
    There is no split. There is no PT. There is no OT.




    There is the Saga.


    (that's how I see it anyway)
     
  23. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    A better way to look at this is:

    You have those that like just ANH.

    You have those that like ANH and ESB.

    You have those that like ANH, ESB, and ROTJ.

    You have those that like ANH and ESB but not ROTJ or the PT.

    Then you have those that like the OT but not the PT.

    Then you have those that like the PT but not the OT.

    Then you have those that like the OT and PT.

    I can just keep going and going with this. :p But it would be way way way to long as to how many different people like what in Star Wars.
     
  24. 1701

    1701 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    I totally agree.
     
  25. Dancing_Jansons

    Dancing_Jansons Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2002
    jediknight88: I dont see a split.

    We all know that Star Wars is Anakin. That is who the sage is about. He is the balance in the force.

    The Ot showed the Evil Darth Vader, and We see Vader get redemption. the only think that I think the PT show Anakins trials and tribulations.

    I mean....I think the whole saga is supposed to be about Anakins trip to Jedi Knighthood through his downfall to the dark, and then him bringing balance to the force.



    Here's a split on that viewpoint. The OT was NEVER about Anakin Skywalker. It was entirely "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker".

    Having the entire saga be about Anakin is just retconning done by George Lucas.

    I don't have seething, foaming hatred for the PT; I'll probably get the DVDs. However, I'm interested in it ONLY for the fact that it gives a history to my favorite OT characters - the prequels tell us where Luke and Leia come from. That's it.

    It doesn't mean I don't understand the others' viewpoints; that is just MINE.
     
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