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Discussion The ST would suffer the same fate as the PT

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Lord-Draco, May 18, 2013.

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  1. Lord-Draco

    Lord-Draco Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 26, 2002
    I already see it now. You are all excited about the upcoming "sequel trilogy" but by the time we get to Episode 8 or Episode 9, the sequel trilogy would be more in lined with the prequels, not the originals.

    Because people put the original SW movies on such a HIGH pedestal and people had their own preconcieved visions of what Anakin Skywalker was like and such, the PT wasn't too popular with the hardcore SW crowd to the point where even casual SW fans bash on the PT. Hell, it it is sort of "cool" or trendy to say something like "The prequels suck" or "I prefer the originals", even from a 19 year old who probably grew up on the PT. Too much romance, too much politics, too much CGI etc etct etc....

    The Sequels would be no different. People through EU already have their preconcieved thoughts and ideas about the post ROTJ realm and if the story from the ST does not match up to that (Just like GL's vision of Anakin didn't match up with most people's) then you all will whine and cry about it. Even if Han, Luke, and Leia all return (and possibly Lando and Chewie) then you all will find some nitpick reasons to keep the OT on that such high pedestal.

    Say what you want about the PT, but at the core the main fault was that people were too closed minded to accept GL's vision of Anakin. I bet most people visioned Anakin Skywalker to be force choking people at an early age and just a walking menace. However that wasn't the case, he was just a niave little boy with great MOST little boys and girls are. However, that didn't play too well with the general fanbase. In EP2 when Anakin was a teenager, he was hormonal and very rebellious. Some would say he was whiney but then again, what teenager isn't? Anakin like most teens believes the world revolves around him. However, that didn't play too well with the general fanbase.

    I suspect some similar things would happen with the Sequel Trilogy. It is said that the ST would NOT use the EU as a guideline but instead have a new story as to what happens post ROTJ. This means no Mara Jade, no Jacen Solo and all that other EU crap. Luke might have kids but they will be new and Disney's vision. Han and Leia may or maynot be married and may have kids, but they would be how Disney invisioned them. There will be conflicts but it would be conflicts created by Disney. This alone woud cause a stirr and this is where I believe the hate/bashing of the Sequel Trilogy would begin.

    Me personally, I am glad that it won't follow EU as I have never read any EU material that is post ROTJ. I am more of an Old Republic Era type guy. So I would at least be able to go into this trilogy with a wide open mind. Many of you here has spent years clinging onto an idea of what the post ROTJ era was like through works such as the Thrawn Trilogy and so on. Therefore when you see the ST, instead of having an open mind, you would subjectively be comparing it to what you already knew (or that you knew) about the post ROTJ realm. This is where the conflict could arise.

    I can see it now, people blaming JJ Abrams for not having a true Star Wars vision. Or Disney not taking the SW license seriously and ruined the post ROTJ era by not following the EU. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if fans attacked Mark, Carrie, and Harrison for not bringing that same "mystic" to the ST as they did with the OT and labeling them as actors just trying to get another paycheck. People did this with the recent Indiana Jones film saying that Harrison didn't put too much effort into the film.

    There would be more complaints but all you need to know is that people would nitpick the ST just like they did with the PT and not allow the ST to be itself. This is how the ST could possibly suffer the same fate as the PT. Come 2020 when the ST is over (Assuming EP9 is released in 2019), people would proclaim the OT as the true and greatest SW films and labeling the PT/ST as just money grabbers for George Lucas and Disney. We will have endless dicussions of people who are pro PT vs those who are Pro OT. Hell, perhaps a new trilogy would be announced and the cycle would once continue.

    TL;DR -- People will be too closed minded to accept the ST for what it is and immerse themselves in Disney's vision of the post ROTJ era. People would stubbornly cling onto EU "facts" and not accept what is given to us in the ST and thus would create a wave of people bashing the ST for every small detail the same way they did with the PT.
  2. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 5, 2013
    Is this the point where board members begin eating each other?
    Bad_Feeling, VMeran, KevinM1 and 8 others like this.
  3. Lord-Draco

    Lord-Draco Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 26, 2002
    I hope not. I am not trying to entice a flame war or OT vs PT type thing. I am just expressing my opinions as to what I fear about the ST. I hope am wrong but just have this gut feeling that people would view the ST in the same light as they viewed the PT.
  4. Slash78

    Slash78 Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 30, 2004
    I think it can't be said enough for people to realize it. Lucas wrote the store treatments for Ep VII-IX before selling the whole thing to Disney (Lawrence Kasdan was brought in at an early date). Iger and a few other hand-picked high-ups read them prior to the sale. Disney wouldn't have bought the franchise if there wasn't material to turn into movies right away. Pre-production has been going on since early 2012.

    No how close will Ep VII-IX be to those story treatments? I've got no clue. How much of the EU will get thrown in? I don't know. But we should stop pretending that they are starting from scratch when Lucas had been working on them over a year ago.
  5. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 25, 2013
    I foresee the same thing happening.

    What will we the fans do in this time awaiting the release of the ST? Speculate. Speculate about story, characters, setting, etc. People had YEARS to do this before the PT came out. And when people saw Lucas's story on the big screen, and not the story that they themselves created, they were disappointed. Simple as that. The same thing will happen again, I guarantee it.
  6. EviL_eLF

    EviL_eLF Force Ghost star 5

    Mar 16, 2003
    Meh... even the worst reviewed prequel - TPM still has 57% at rotten tomatoes from critics and 62% from the casual movie goer, so it can't be THAT bad... it's just that people are able to be more vocal in the interwebs era so everyone THINKS nobody likes them when box office has well since proven otherwise.
    Episode Swag and JoshieHewls like this.
  7. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    All I expect from these new movies is more Star Wars. If they turn out to be awesome, like the previous six episodes, then I'll love them. I couldn't care less about what others think. I was taken by surprise by a lot of things in the latest trilogy, but I quickly got used to it and in some ways, I've enjoyed Anakin's trilogy even more than I've enjoyed Luke's.

    - It's working! It's working!
    - Great, kid! Don't get cocky!

  8. Bobatron

    Bobatron Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2012
    People are already doing this. Look at all the fan synopses and treatments and opening scenes and casting ideas and all that. It is really easy to latch onto those ideas and decide not to care about the actual reality. That's just in addition to the ones who can't shake the EU stuff; I don't understand where this obsession with "canon" including any and all materials related to a movie began. I don't remember ever thinking books, comics, cereal box images were in the same universe as the movies or TV shows on which they were based, or feeling offended when details from those other materials made their way into something. No one complains about Batman movies presenting different histories for the Joker or Harvey Dent or Robin. Heck, when The Phantom Menace came out there were some people clinging to fifteen-year-old fan fiction. I just wish people would decide they actually don't want to see the new movies and save us from all the complaints based on what's not even in the movies. If you don't like that Disney is producing the movies, bow out now. If you don't like J.J. Abrams, bow out now. I'm open to anything. These movies don't have to have younger Solos, younger Skywalkers, a new Republic, married couples, a new Empire, a clone of whomever, or even a new variation on the stormtrooper.
  9. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Mar 3, 2013
    I will agree with you that the ST will be rather polarizing to the fanbase, much like the PT was. Like you said, opinions vary based on the level of 'fandom' each fan chooses to immerse himself or herself in. It's as simple as that, and the inevitable byproduct is a divided fanbase. However, I do feel that this isn't necessarily a bad thing; with so many people flocking to watch these films, would you not expect a wide array of different opinions? It encourages the kind of great discussion prevalent on these boards and other gatherings that we fans enjoy engaging in on a nearly daily basis.

    We fans, particularly the most hardcore amongst us, will undoubtedly have some sort of preconceived notion of what to expect from the upcoming trilogy. We've all been speculating about this for months now, passing time and coming up with ideas on how the main trio from the OT should be appear, what new characters we can expect to see, etc. Look no further than the treatment contest thread in this very forum to view the visions that some fans have for the new trilogy. I can see where a major division can occur between fans of the Expanded Universe versus casual fans who merely enjoy the films on their own without really getting into the EU. Big EU fans will undoubtedly have greater expectations of what they want to see onscreen based on the hundreds of works that have been published on the post-RotJ universe. Film-only fans don't share these same expectations, and instead will have their own based on the films that came before, like or hate the PT. There will be those seeking a thrilling experience but satisfied with a simpler story, those desiring simply to see their favorite characters and locations again, and those of us seeking more sophistication, perhaps desiring to see the mythic storytelling elements of Campbell's Hero's Journey that Lucas made prevalent in the OT.

    Really, we can expect the experience of ST moviegoers to vary according to the level of immersion they have in the Star Wars universe: be it an open-minded, relative SW virgin all the way to a hardcore EU fan who's read every novel and owned every videogame SW, who'll undoubtedly have some grand vision on what the films should be. And that's a good thing; the Star Wars experience varies from individual to individual, cultivating a different experience for each fan, and enabling a wide range of discussions regarding story, characters, effects, cinematography, music, etc. of great breadth and depth. The new trilogy will be successful either way thanks to the millions of fans that will support it. Whether you end up liking, loving, disliking, or even loathing the ST there will certainly be no shortage of discussion for many, many years to come. The SW franchise transcends ordinary movies, and our expectations will be framed accordingly.
  10. Slash78

    Slash78 Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 30, 2004
    In a way the ST will have a great advantage over the PT. We knew what was going to happen. Not necessarily how, but we knew Obi-Wan and Anakin would meet, fight together, Anakin would meet he's baby's momma and that Obi-Wan would eventually win a duel leaving Anakin all messed up while Obi-Wan and Yoda have to go into hiding. We don't get any of that in the ST.

    Lucas has had various levels of input in the EU over the years. I remember reading Han Solo and the Lost Legacy right around the time the TJA trilogy came out and thinking that there were no armies of battle droids in Star Wars. Yet if you read it again it actually makes more since after Episode one came out. Now how much of this was Brian Daley's idea and how much of it came from Lucas? I don't know. Lucas also stepped in vetoing Zahn's use of a cloned Kenobi and Cam Kennedy's use of a cloned Vader, which became Joruus C'baoth and Cloned Palpatine.
    The Hellhammer likes this.
  11. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 4, 2012
    The simple fact is that some people will never ever be satisfied. Really, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do. People will bitch and whine because that's what people like to do, especially here on the internet. They will nitpick the Sequel Trilogy if it's better than The Godfather, Apocalypse Now and 2001: A Space Odyssey put together. That is a fact that we all should have learned by now and grown accustomed to it.
    I'm no diehard fan of the Prequels, but I can enjoy many of their aspects and my problem with them was not Lucas' vision of a young Anakin Skywalker - the problem was the delivery of that vision, which I found severly lacking. Also, there are quite a few people who actually enjoy prequels as much as the Originals - and (gasp!) those who enjoy them even more. I'm not one of those, but all I'm saying is that there is a vast number of people who will disagree with your very notion of saying that "something will suffer the same fate as PT" (I'm sure they'll be along shortly, shouting "SOURCE?!" and "You can't know that!" and so on.)

    Now the point is to sit back, relax, enjoy the movies if you like 'em and ignore the screaming internet masses bloated on nerdrage who will obsess and nitpick absolutely everything that comes out, no matter how good or bad it is.
    JoshieHewls likes this.
  12. Slash78

    Slash78 Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 30, 2004
    Lucas had the most control over the PT. His least control was over the Empire Strikes Back. All are George Lucas Stories. The new movies, at least Ep VII, VIII and IX will be Lucas stories. But with less George Lucas in the execution (pun intented) of the movies.

    I just watched TPM a few hours ago for the first time in a few years. If you do nothing but dubbed over Jar Jar and modified a few lines he would be only 50% as annoying.

    The PT wasn't horrible. There just wasn't strong voices around him to say "No George, that's a bad idea". Nor was he constrained by a budget and being a young director with ANH.
  13. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 13, 2012
    The ST will probably sit behind EP4 & EP5 but ahead of at least EP1 & EP2 and be more well received as EP3 .....I predict the following for EP7

    Rottentomatoes 86 %
    IMDB score 8.1
    Cinema score "A"

    So a bit ahead of the PT but still a little behind the OT but very close to ROTJ......
  14. OldTimeFan

    OldTimeFan Jedi Knight star 2

    Jul 28, 2011
    I hate the Expanded Universe for me if it's not in the movies it does not count.

    I also really enjoyed the Prequel trilogy but some of the fans who had a go at it have a point.

    Episode One we got to see the Senate and the Republic home world and bad ass Darth Maul.

    However we got goofy battle droids and this abomination.

  15. OldTimeFan

    OldTimeFan Jedi Knight star 2

    Jul 28, 2011
    The inclusion of a scene like this could have improved Episode 1 vastly.

    Chewgumma likes this.
  16. King_Crimson

    King_Crimson Jedi Padawan star 1

    May 19, 2013
    Wow Draco... you just got it all figured it don't you? Anybody who disliked the PT simply had expectations that just couldn't be matched. They of course had their own version of the trilogy in their minds beforehand and therefore were disappointed when their vision was not realized on the screen.

    That is a load of Bantha-$#%* my friend. That tired argument just needs to stop already. It's naïve and insulting. It's not only insulting to the reasonable, thoughtful, passionate fans who were extremely let down by the prequels (for completely valid reasons I might add)... but it's an insult to cinema and art itself. You can use that exact same anti-logic for ANY FILM or piece of art, for that matter:

    "Oh well you just don't "get" the director's vision. It's just not what YOU wanted. Why don't you just enjoy it for what it is."

    You could literally apply that to any film ever made. "Sooooo you didn't like Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen eh? Well.... YOU just didn't understand what Michael Bay was going for, buddy. If you hadn't planned out the sequel to Transformers in your head already, maaaaaybe you would have enjoyed it. Whiney fanboys." What an absolutely logically fallacious argument, bud. I understand that people like you need to rationalize the "hate" in some way. Obviously you don't want to admit that your standards are lower, or your taste in cinema isn't as "refined" as others... of course you wouldn't admit that to yourself. You have to rationalize it like "Hey, I liked these movies. And of course I have impeccable taste so it certainly isn't ME... no, it's gotta be that people just didn't get what they wanted. That they envisioned the films in their heads, scene by scene, line by line, and when they didn't get exactly that... they freaked! Yeah, that's it! *high fives self*

    Again, that is simply insulting to the true fans of the OT. It's not that we had the whole trilogy planned out (seriously, who would do that?), or that we have unimaginably high expectations that couldn't possibly be met. It's as simple as the fact that we wanted good, solid FILMS (let alone good Star Wars films), that respected the original trilogy. What we received was a lazy attempt by an over the hill, disinterested film-maker who felt he was obligated to appease the fans and give them what he thought they wanted (or he was compelled by the $$$ - naw... no way, that couldn't be it - *ahem*). And it turned in to a dumbed down, juvenile, pandering, uninspired, poorly executed, cgi-fest, that failed in every conceivable cinematic way (casting, performances, cinematography, effects, the WRITING.... good god, the writing.... editing, tone, etc. - literally everything except the music - thank god for Mr. Williams).

    Now I could go on to more detail, but i'm sure this isn't the place for that. But if you want to do that somewhere, i'm game. I could write a friggin' essay on what's wrong with the prequels, fundamentally. And again, it does not have ANYTHING to do with preconceived notions or impossible expectations. For the love of Yoda, please do not EVER use this inane argument again. You will be laughed off the stage if you do.

    Good day, sir.
  17. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Force Ghost star 6

    Jun 4, 2002

    I have to admit, I opened this thread expecting to see this kind of fantrum in the opening post, but at least it got a few replies before one hit.

    Like everyone else who's excited for the new movie, I read every story that pops up on the new trilogy or new article about Star Wars in general, but my tolerance for people who think it's clever to toss in prequal digs or 'George Lucas let the cheese fall off his cracker' jokes, has gone to zero as I tend to skip right down to the end or close up the article all together now.

    Funny enough, the rant above is exactly what the OP was saying will (and still does) happen... [face_tired]
  18. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2012
    I kinda agree. Some fans are gunna be pissed no matter what. In fact I see the Sequel trilogy being viewed like the Star Trek reboot. General audiences and normal fans love it but SOME (not all to avoid controversy here) of the more hardcore fans absolutely despise it because its not what they wanted, and such.
    Jedirush2112 likes this.
  19. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Jul 24, 2010
    the OP:

    too much assumption there without a basic plot synopsis, script,, pre art concepts etc

    even the cast hasn't been properly acknowledged, just hints, rumours and teases

    save the suspicionss til we get something concrete like "CGI Mon Mothma confirmed ;)
  20. Garrett Atkins

    Garrett Atkins Jedi Knight star 4

    Feb 11, 2013
    I completely agree with everything the OP said. In ten years people, don't come crying to me.
  21. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Jul 24, 2010
    don't worry, we won't

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 25, 2003
    I have often wondered this myself... I am sure that fanboys will view this sequel trilogy as the supposed "savior of the saga," and expect it to be perfect. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it will not be. I have an idea That it will be a trilogy of great movies (because it seems many blockbuster movies are made quite well nowadays), but for all those who were thinking that this trilogy is going to match the OT completely in tone, dialogue, characters and look, they are setting themselves up for disappointment!

    I dont want it to be like that anyways! I would love for it to be some sort of amalgamation of the tone and image of both PT and OT...either that, or perhaps having it's own type of overall atmosphere altogether... that would be great, because then we would have three trilogies. each with specific and unique senses of tone, visual quality and philosophy...
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    People are going to have expectations for the ST. Some people's expectations aren't going to be met, and they'll get upset about it. Some people will get really upset. Nerd rage is a funny thing. The scene in The Big Bang Theory in which Sheldon and the comic book guy spend hours arguing over Batman and Robin while Penny fell asleep on the couch was perfect, I could not stop laughing--precisely because I have been in so many of those conversations over the years.

    I'm not all that concerned if people get outraged over the ST, and I can think of a few plot points that will ensure that I am included among the outraged (coughMaraJadeTheSuperAwesomeMainCharactercough) (coughThrawnTheBrilliantStrategistMainCharactercough) but...that's fine. It doesn't matter. If I hate a film, that doesn't stop someone else from liking it, and if someone else hates a film and posts nerd-rage rants all over the Internet, that doesn't stop me from liking it.

    FWIW I like the prequels and all the anti-prequel rants over the years haven't changed my opinion or inhibited my enjoyment, so why does it really matter if someone else thinks the prequels are along the same caliber as Attack of the Killer Tomatoes or the Holiday Special? It really doesn't.
  24. darkchrono

    darkchrono Jedi Master star 4

    May 23, 2005
    I think at least for casual star wars fans the main reason they did not enjoy the PT as much wasn't because it didn't fall in line with what they had built up in their mind. It was mainly because of the pretty subpar acting, writing, and directing in the movies. I think casual viewers will enjoy the ST a great deal more than they did the PT because chances are it wil be superior in all three of those categories than the PT was (and even perhaps superior to the OT in those categories).

    I think the die hards will be the ones who will be harder to satisfy. How well will they accept it if it throws all the storylines that the EU had created over the years in the trash? How well will they accept it if it doesn't satisfy the story they have already created in their mind for what they personally want to see happen?

    In anycase a clear way to have a box office flop is to make a movie for the die hards. Making movies that the majority can enjoy though is the way to have an extremely popular movie that will bring in lots of cash.
    Darth Claire likes this.
  25. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2012
    Thats very true. This movie most likely wont be made for the hard core fans. Its most likely being made for general audiences *much like how the Star Trek reboot is more for average moviegoers than the life long trekkies*. In regards to the EU it makes you wonder "Do general audiences care about if this movie is accurate to a book they never heard of?". Most likely no so it comes down to two options "You please your hard cores but possibly alienate your general audience because we'll have fans understanding everything but nonfan not getting the reference" or you make a film mostly for average movie goers but piss off some fans. Hard choice.
    Jedirush2112 likes this.
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