Discussion The ST would suffer the same fate as the PT

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Lord-Draco, May 18, 2013.

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  1. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Really? My impression of him is the opposite. I see him as an execution guy, but not so good on ideas. Where as George is a big ideas guy, but not always so great at execution. Just my take.
  2. Evil--Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 1
    How so?
  3. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I got what you were getting at, but we see negative posts about the PT so often that it sometimes causes somewhat knee-jerk reactions.
  4. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Abrams should take a break from big action franchises and make something like Empire of the Sun if he really wants to be the "next Spielberg."
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  5. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6

    All I've seen in subsequent post is more of the same - more blind PT hatred, turning what could be an interesting discussion into the Basher's Sanctuary part two.

    Good grief.
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  6. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    He's not going to be the next Spielberg. :)
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  7. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Well, after seeing the latest Star Trek film, it's safe to think J.J. will be free to direct all three Star Wars films, what with how "Into Darkness" ended. And especially if Episode VII turns out better than both of his Trekkie movies, too. There's also no excuse as to why they wouldn't have someone else direct, since they'll be focusing on the so-called five year mission now and having no more need of setting up more of the main crew's origins. J.J. did an admirable job of course correcting that franchise, but now it's time to test his directing skills on a bigger challenge.
  8. King_Crimson Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2013
    star 1
    Phew, that felt good to vent. Now I love deconstructing opinions and exposing poorly thought out arguments (as I did in my original post towards the OP). But now it is time to move on and talk specifics about what JJ can do to make the upcoming Episode VII a great film. 'Cause that's all that matters, bias aside.

    First off, I am ecstatic about the fact that Lucas is done with the franchise. That was my sincerest hope since ROTS, which was the culmination of 3 films, and 6 years of missed opportunities and a general sense of melancholy about what happened to our once beloved franchise. So the news that Disney and Kathleen Kennedy were going to run the show lifted my spirits for the first time in over a decade. I couldn't stop thinking about the possibilities. Upon hearing the news that Arndt was going to script it, I was initially concerned as I have nothing but utter contempt for Little Miss Sunshine. That is a slight exaggeration, but it goes without saying that the film (specifically the script) was pretty abysmal. One of the most contrived, self-aware films I have ever seen. The dialogue was insufferable and all the forced quirkiness just completely turned me off to it, despite the otherwise decent cast they had assembled. It was really one of the worst scripts (especially dialogue-wise) this side of "Crash" or "Donnie Darko". I just can't fathom the appeal of these films. Anywho... after I cooled down a bit from picturing LMS dialogue in a new Star Wars film, I decided to cut the guy some slack and look at more of his filmography and history. I watched a pretty great video of a lecture he gave a few years back to film students talking about storytelling in cinema. And one of his big references (essentially the "climax" of his talk) was on the original Star Wars film. He deconstructed the entire 3rd act and talked about how near perfect it was in terms of character development and goal resolution. And I couldn't have agreed any more. This cat really GETS IT. I admired his passion and respect for the original film as well as his thoughts on storytelling and cinema in general. Despite my contempt for "Lil Miss", I think we're in good hands. And while I haven't seen the film yet, Toy Story 3 sounds pretty great. I have only heard excellent things about it. So I definitely want to check that out.

    I believe a quality script is essential in creating a great film. And I have more faith in Arndt than I would ever have in Georgey Boy. He loves Star Wars (the OT) and we needed some fresh blood in this franchise, no doubt. And coupled with the fact that Kasdan is back on board in some capacity just leaves me frothing at the mouth in anticipation for what we might be in store for. I think Disney is going to really take their time with the script and make sure they get it right before jumping into production. As the screenplay is the backbone of a film, this is the most important ingredient and I have quite a bit of faith that they're going to nail this part of the process. Again, to reiterate my earlier point at the beginning of the thread, it is highly enjoyable to speculate on things like character and plot, and we all have an idea of where the story COULD go, but I assure you, no matter what the simple minded apologists say, with their logically fallacious "arguments"... it doesn't matter WHERE they take the story and characters. It's all about the execution. The QUALITY of the presentation. If its good, it's good. Simple as that.

    Now since I covered the writing aspect, there is still the elephant in the room here. The controversial choice of director. The JJ factor...

    *to be continued*
  9. Lord-Draco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well this is where I disagree on. What you say is very subjective, and heavily based on opinion and not fact. I found the PT to have a sense of magic and adventure. Hell, it is because of the PT why I am a Star Wars fan today and have been at these forums since 2002. The Special Editions of the OT released in 1997 is what caught my attention, but they didn't capture me the same way the PT did.

    With that being said, this is another reason why I believe the ST would end up in the same bowl of soup as the PT....people just have this strong nostalgic vibe with the OT. No matter what the ST delivers, people would have a condescending view of the ST because like SweetZombieJesus says, they don't have the same "sense of magic or adventure" that the OT had.

    Like I said in my original post, MOST hardcore and even some casual SW fans would go into the Sequels with a closed mind. They would buy their ticket, purchase their drink/candy/nachos/popcorn, walk into the room and take their set. When the film starts instead of expecting something fresh and different but still within the realm of Star Wars, people would expect the same "Feeling" that they had with the OT and no matter how great the movie is, it is just impossible to capture that same vibe. Not to be too graphic, but it is sort of like a crack-head. They say that first hit is always the best and every hit after that is just trying to capture what they got with that first hit.....and it never happens. For me, the PT is my nostalgia, but when I watch the ST, I am not going to expect to have the same experience as I did when my dad took me to see EP1 back in 1999 or when I watched EP3 in Hollywood opening night after a long day of E3 2005 and walking the expo floor. No, those feelings and experiences are gone. Instead, I will open my mind to new experiences, new feelings, and will be willing to explore into a new journey of magic and adventure. Whether or not that adventure and magic is the same as the PT or OT is irrelevant to me because at the end of the day, it is still Star Wars.
  10. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Tone down the politics portion for the ST and we will be fine.
  11. King_Crimson Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2013
    star 1
    I don't dislike JJ Abrams. I don't particularly like him either. He's more of a producer... an idea man. He's good at marketing and he's competent in interviews. He's very calm, "likeable", very PC. But that's exactly why I don't really dig him. He's very vanilla. Studio's like him 'cause he makes his films quick and they end up making a profit. He's not controversial. But he's not a very inspired film-maker. He doesn't have that "thing" that a typically good director/film-maker has. Like a Kubrick, or a David Lynch, or even a James Cameron or David Fincher. They all have a certain... something. A little more passionate, a bit "fiery". Harder to get along with on set. They're genuinely creative people, some might even say "genius". They are usually a bit quirky or temperamental. JJ is very passive, and since he's more naturally a producer/marketer he is always thinking about multiple projects at once, and jumping from one thing to another. Which scares me a bit of course for what he's about to jump into. Something he needs to pour his heart and soul into. I just don't know if he's really up for this, despite the claim that he's a huge fan of Star Wars. And to be honest, from what I've seen in interviews, i'm not sure if he really "gets" what Star Wars is all about. I'm sure he dug the aliens, the lightsabres, the ships, the heroes and villains, the action and all that... but he doesn't really strike me as the introspective, or thoughtful type (when it comes to character and theme, etc.). As evidence by his take on Star Trek (or Star TrekINO for the geeks), he is really all about the PIZZAZ. The snazzy effects, the big, bombastic style, tempo, music and the over the top action... everything is BIG and LOUD and FLASHY. He is about as subtle as a hammer to the forehead. And that's what scares me the most.

    The OT is quite subtle and nuanced. I'm sure most fans simply like Star Wars for the obvious superficial reasons (that I mentioned above) but to some, like myself, Star Wars is much more than that. Like many others, my favorite film of the OT is Empire. We don't have to get into all of the reasons, but obviously it was the most mature... the "darkest" if you will (although I don't really like using that term). But what they did to the characters, and their growth over the film (especially compared to the original film) is absolutely exceptional. The situations they were put in, the choices they had to make... it was all very real and compelling. Emotionally engaging. Every character is fleshed out. And while there is not constant action, there is always a definite forward progression, or momentum, of the plot. It never drags, despite the film being rather dialogue heavy. Everything on Dagobah (from a writing standpoint to the practical sets and puppets, music and cinematography) is really just magical (for lack of a better term). The thematic resonance is stunning. And Kirshner gets all he can get out of this cast. Absolutely top notch. Williams is at his best in this film, musically, and I don't think it's a coincidence. He was genuinely inspired by the film. And of course the Cloud City sequence, the carbonite chamber, etc. are just cinematic perfection. The Duel is just exceptional. The pacing of the scene, the minimal but entirely effective dialogue, the camera work, the minimal music, etc. are all just note perfect. THIS is what Star Wars is to me. To a lot of the more thoughtful fans of cinema and this franchise. It's not the flashy, overt stuff... it's the smaller things. The stuff that resonates deeper within us. And it is precisely this that scares me most about JJ. I cannot imagine him, with his obvious style, directing a film any where close to something like Empire. I know, I know, all the apologist fanboys are getting their panties in a wad shouting at their monitors "See! See! I told you! It's their impossible expectations! They will never be satisfied! ArrrggghhhH!!"

    But that's NOT what I'm getting at here. I don't expect another Empire specifically. That's literally impossible. That film will never be topped, in my opinion (i'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong though!) but i'm already CONCEDING THAT. I just want a film that takes it's damn time. That isn't hyper-kinetically paced, a CGI EXTRAVAGANZA! I want a quality film. Something shot old-school. I want an emphasis on classic cinematography. Just re-watch the original films and tell me if you see any LENS FLARES, or those irritating Dutch camera angles he's so attached to (this ain't noir JJ, just keep the damn camera flat). Any fast moving dolly shots or shaky-cam with character close ups ala "24". He doesn't compose his shots well. Compare him to a Spielberg or Fincher or heck, even Kirshner from Empire. I'm probably losing a lot of you, as I really get into the art of film-making, but this stuff is important to me. It's my passion. And while JJ's style works for something like MI:3 (which I actually dug... in fact, it's my favorite JJ film to this date), it simply will not work in Star Wars. At least not the Star Wars I know and love. I fear that his modern sensibilities (aka the cinematography stuff I mentioned, along with his use of cgi over practical effects) just don't belong in Star Wars. I would encourage them to recapture what made the original films so special. That's all I ask. More practical sets, location shooting, puppets/prosthetics over CGI (of course using CGI when necessary is fine), and a more mature, deliberately paced film that takes it's time... that breathes a bit.

    Heck, I absolutely loved the Lost Pilot (one of the best tv pilots of all time, easily. Probably tied with Twin Peaks for my personal favorite). He knocked that out of the park. And like I said earlier, I really dug MI:3. His style was perfect for that film. Nice reboot to a dead franchise. Super 8 was a slight disappointment (mainly because of the 3rd act issues) but the first half of the movie was pretty fantastic. And the casting of the kids and the performances he got out of them were exceptional. And this is coming from someone who is picky has all-get-out when it comes to kids on film. But my major issues started with his Star Trek Reboot. A lot of people seemed to dig it certainly, but I sure as heck didn't. One of the the more disappointing film viewing experiences of the last decade for me. And i'm not even a Trek fan. It was just a sloppily written, conceived film that relied on plot gaps (plot holes I guess you could call them), contrivancies, arbitrary character actions, the exceptionally lazy deus ex machina plot device of time travel, with all the silliness, and paradoxes that arrive with it, etc... and unlikeable characters. Just lazy, lazy film-making that pandered to the lowest common denominator. It simply took a franchise that was rather DOA, and thought "Hey, lets HIP this thing up! Give it a young, BEAUTIFUL cast, throw in some WOW effects and action and all that stuff... and forget about philosophy or subtlety and all that crap, as our audience these days has chronic ADHD and whatnot... Throw on the name "Star Trek" and loosely tie it into the old films or show or whatever and there ya go! A few hundred mil in our pockets. Hooray for hollywood!" I pray (and i'm not the religious type) that they don't pull this crap with Star Wars. Anyway, I have no desire to see Into Darkness, but I feel I need to if nothing else to see what we're in for with his venturing into the Star Wars universe. I just pray that he doesn't bring the same visual aesthetic that he has been using (especially from Nu Trek) and pays a little more respect to the OT, that he professes to love.

    Only time will tell...

    I appreciate anyone who made it all the way through that. I didn't intend for it to be that long, but I just kept typing, stream of consciousness. I think I generally got my point across. I'm sure there will be some detractors but I wager that I articulated what a lot of others here are thinking, who may not have chosen to express it yet.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by King_Crimson, May 19, 2013
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  12. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    [quote="King_Crimson, post: 50730457, member: 1378561" As evidence by his take on Star Trek (or Star TrekINO for the geeks), he is really all about the PIZZAZ. The snazzy effects, the big, bombastic style, tempo, music and the over the top action... everything is BIG and LOUD and FLASHY. He is about as subtle as a hammer to the forehead. And that's what scares me the most.


    Cheers![/quote]


    Just trimming for brevity on the reply -

    I get you here, and agree actually. I just hope that Arnet (forgive me, it's late for me) can bring the SOUL into the ST with the script, and the 'flash bang' can be countered by it.
  13. King_Crimson Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2013
    star 1

    *sigh*...

    Here we go again with this. I am thinking he hasn't read my initial post yet. But Draco, dude, you are DEAD WRONG.

    Let me reiterate.... you are INCORRECT. That is an ignorant if not arrogant assumption you're making. I only talk about the quality of the films. You are ASSUMING things like the mental state of someone viewing the film. You assume, based on literally NO evidence that people simply are "close minded" and have already "filmed the movies inside their head". I implore you, that this is not only completely ridiculous, but that it's rather insulting to us. You are clearly younger, and you grew up with the PT... fine. I get it. But if you really want to get into a film-making debate... an objective, RATIONAL discussion on the finer aspects of film-making then i'm most certainly game. We'll talk about the objective qualities of a film, not our SUBJECTIVE viewing experience of them, and get to the bottom of this, if you'd like. Either way, If you are a rational, thoughtful individual, I would encourage you to do some deeper introspection and re-examine your arguments. As I stated before, they are simply fallacious and they hold no weight whatsoever. If you personally prefer the PT, whatever. Make a case for the films themselves, instead of just throwing around generalizations and assumptions about the mental state (of which you could know nothing about) and accept that maybe people dislike the PT for valid, authentic, and rational reasons.

    Fair enough?
  14. localriot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2013
    I think its totally possible that people could love the ST and still hate the PT.
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    By saying there's too much negativity about the ST before it's even out, and then continuing to talk about it all these years later, you're only perpetuating the negativity.

    If people didn't like the prequels, fine. If they loved them, fine. But this is about the ST, and the fun journey as they're being made. The finished product is almost anti-climatic in my eyes.

    So, if youre going to spend the next two years fearing what the final product will be and not enjoying it, you'll be missing out.

    If you're going to spend the next two years complaining about the people who are spending the next two years fearing what the final product will be, you will not be enjoying the journey. You too will be missing out.

    I feel like fandom can be reduced to Luke, Han, and Leia in the shuttle in ROTJ. One is totally negative(Luke). One is wary(Leia). And Han is Han.

    To quote Han Solo in ROTJ: Come on, let's keep a little optimism here.

    Let's enjoy this great journey we're on. Casting and everything will start falling into place soon. It's a fun time.
    Last edited by ShaneP, May 19, 2013
  16. Evil--Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 1
    I have to disagree with alot of what you say.

    Comparing him to Stanley Kubrick and David Lynch is just plain silly. This is Star Wars which in itself was always a mass marketable product and does not need to feel like a partial art house film.
    James Cameron is the only one mentioned that you could argue might be a better fit for Star Wars.

    Star Wars at it's core is just a fun action movie set in the stars and you're criticising the new director for not being as artistic as legends like Kubrick!?!? Kubrick would scoff at the idea of doing a Star Wars film.
    Yes it has some philosophical under-layers, but so does LOST!


    He certainly does have a knack for the pizzazy stuff. But JJ's strength has always been his ability to develop characters and strong chemistry between them.
    Every single work he has done makes you fall in love with the central characters very quickly. All of his movies have been critical success's and I think the Vanilla tag is highly undeserved.


    Questioning him being a fan or understanding Star Wars I find absurd.
    Long before news of a new Star Wars movie ever came out he was crediting Star Wars with his decision to get into the movie industry. As a LOST fan (before he left and it turned to $%!t) it was common knowledge to us that everything he did had to have a bit of Star Wars influence or a SW reference in it since he was such a huge fan.

    Lucky JJ didn't write Star Trek..... and therefore little of these things can be blamed on him.

    The things you praise above the bolded parts are a nice summation of why JJ is probably a good choice for Star Wars.
    I agree Super 8 was probably let down in the last third of the movie when it turned into all action. But what you should appreciate out of that movie is the characters, the chemistry and the suspense built up in the first two thirds.

    Star Trek has this certian aesthetic including the lens flares because he was trying to capture the clean SciFi feel of the Star Trek universe. He probably went too far but there is no reason to think it will carry into the much more gritty unclean Star Wars universe.
    Last edited by Evil--Yoda, May 19, 2013
  17. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    You know, fly casual. :)
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  18. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Movie-wise I am Han 100%. All tie-in stuff I'm Leia.
  19. Avnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2007
    star 2
    This.

    I just don't watch the prequels -to me they don't exist.

    The ST is a fresh canvas taking off from an era of Star Wars that I love.

    Bad films are bad films. It's funny, I loved the Terminator. Loved Terminator 2. Hated Terminator 3. Quite liked Terminator Salvation...go figure??

    If the ST are good films they will be good films regardless of when they were made or by who!
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  20. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    lol @forcesmuggler and pro scoundrel. [face_laugh]

    Yeah, I might be Leia too when it comes to all the marketing. But hey, it's always been heavy market push with the movies.
    Last edited by ShaneP, May 19, 2013
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  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    The Prequel Trilogy failed? For whom? Fans like you? Do you honestly believe that all STAR WARS fans share your feelings? Because not all of them do.


    What about those fans that love the PT? I realize that you don't like the PT, but again there seemed to be this generalization that all STAR WARS fans think alike.


    By the way, I don't want the ST to "recapture" the feeling of the OT. I don't want to retread old ground. I find that boring and unoriginal. I would prefer if the ST turned out to be something different from both the OT and the PT. But I keep forgetting . . . we live in an age where unoriginal culture rules supreme.
    Last edited by DRush76, May 19, 2013
  22. Evil--Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 1
    Not that I'm defending his post but he never said all fans do. It's the prevailing opinion of most Star Wars fans though.

    Again, no one is generalising all Star Wars fans as having a certain opinion. Just accepting the fact that most are disappointed with the PT.
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  23. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    I was very open to new experiences; I just didn't expect the bad experience I got.

    George of 1997-1999 just wasn't capable of producing what he (and the countless collaborators he took credit from) did 20 years earlier. The PT are fundamentally flawed films and their worst offense is that they don't work as stories.
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  24. Lord-Draco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    1 -- Anakin being a spoiled brat, and this is bad because....? Again, this is what I mean by people expecting something different than what GL gave us with Anakin. Anakin was a brat at times, but then again he was 19 years old and very stubborn. In the end, it was this "bratness" that caused him to fall to the DS.

    2 -- Padme falling for Anakin is VERY believable as it happens in the real world. There are MANY intelligent and morally convicted women (young women I might add) who fall for the bad boys and eventually these men bring them down, as what happens to Padme. Leia feel for a smuggler/borderline outlaw and she was a Princess of Alderaan coming from a well respected family. So all of a sudden Padme does it it is bad but her daughter does it and it is okay?

    This is what I mean by people nitpicking EVERY aspect of the PT. I could nitpick the PT, hell, I could nitpick the OT and find MANY plot holes and examples of bad writing in the OT but I choose not to. In the end, it is this very reason why I have a sad feeling that the ST would be in the same pot as the PT.
    Last edited by Lord-Draco, May 20, 2013
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  25. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    It's not nitpicking "every" aspect, it's nitpicking the two core elements of the Trilogy - Anakin's behaviour and his relationship with Padme.

    The idea of him being an arrogant spoiled brat is not bad, but it would seem to me that many people have a problem with the final execution of that idea. Which wasn't really stellar.
    Last edited by The Hellhammer, May 20, 2013
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