Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Lord-Draco, May 18, 2013.
Um, borderline? Dude smuggles spice for a Hutt.
I'm a defender of the PT and feel there are many things done well. But you have to admit this stuff felt very contrived.
It's not nitpicking. I'm just able to accept that the chemistry between characters in the PT was one of the major weak points.
I think he might not have been officially "outlawed" (a bounty and a Wanted notice put on his head by the Empire rather than private individuals like Jabba) until after the battle of Yavin in ANH, though.
I do not prefer the PT nor do I prefer the OT, I prefer Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan and thats all that matters to me. Yes, it might have been the PT that captured my attention, but because of the PT, I am a fan of the OT and thus all aspects of Star Wars from videogames, novels, and comics. I will not make a case for the PT because there is no need to. I like them and thats all that matters, why do I need an explanation or a "case" for them? I am a fan of Star Wars and everything that comes with it.
This is why I am excited for the ST and why I will enjoy them the same way I do the PT and the OT. I don't see classics vs new school or any of those divisions that people want to place. I just see Star Wars created in different eras with different visions. However fans such as I are in the minority which is why I fear how the ST would be accepted initially, which is why I created this thread to open a discussion about that very fear. The Sequels will NOT be the Prequels, but then again the Sequels will NOT be the Originals either. But that does not mean that it isn't that it isn't from a galaxy far far away which has captured my mind and interest the same way the previous 6 films had as well as the many EU works that has followed behind it such as Knights of the Old Republic, Dawn of the Jedi and so on and so forth.
Since most films have many re-shot scenes in its archives, it's possible that a re-edit and new shoots added in could fix any of these films. In fact, there were plenty of home videos that were re-released in the past that addressed their flaws and became better films for it. I think the PT could benefit from it, too.
Well anyway, I think the ST won't meet expectations regardless of what we think of the Prequels. Like it was for the PT releases, it was a different time and generation that they had to appeal to, and therefore the filming methods had to be just as complex and advanced as the films of that time. That being said, it was a mistake on Lucas' part because he himself wasn't accustomed to the 90's style of directing and should have had someone else do it instead.
As you guys have already been warned, this thread is drifting perilously close to "Basher/Gusher" territory. Any closer and it will be locked.
I don't see the ST suffering the 'hate' justified or not that the PT got, I have every faith in the select few already involved to do this right.
I still think the ST will be better received because I have always thought that would be the easier trilogy to make after the OT was finished in 1983. I felt from day 1 the PT was going to suffer from 2 things: A story that was handcuffed to the OT (that fans essentially knew what happened), and ALL new characters that were going to have to compete with the love fans had for Luke, Leia, and Han. The ST sort of gets the best of both worlds, as Lucas can do whatever they want with the story and he still has Luke, Leia and Han (even as cameo's) that can satisfy OT fans.
Now dont' get me wrong, I am a PT fan, but we were all watching the PT waiting for these we already knew to unfold, whereas we will be watching the ST simply to see HOW things unfold. so you do have the added suspense. Maybe Luke's or Han/Leia's kids turn to the darkside? Who is the villain? When/If Han, Luke, and Leia die? All of these questions can't be answered by the fans because we don't know if or when they will happen, whereas in the PT, we all knew they would happen it was just a matter of when Lucas would show us them on screen.
The bottom line is we all had expecations for the PT for various reasons: How did the Emperor take power? How did Darth Vader come to be? How did the jedi become extinct? For the ST, I honestly can't think of a specific plot point that will define the trilogy and that is what makes it exciting and suspensful just like the OT was.
Then it's safe to say JJ will have it easier since there are no things that will tie him down. And since he has much more experience as a director of sci-fi films, it will only make it that much easier.
See, I think it's too early to say for sure either way. Maybe we'll get a blockbuster of a hit that will steamroll over everything we've had up till this point...or maybe it'll be a big, steaming pile of bantha fodder. We just don't know. Any pre-conceived notions that we make prior to the release is going to contribute to our overall opinion, whether we want it to or not. In many ways, those who believe that the ST will suffer the same fate as the PT are setting themselves up for disappointment.
With that said, I'm very optimistic about the new films for many of the same reasons Carbon1985 listed above. I'm more interested in this era and this is what I wanted all along - even back when the PT was announced. I'm very much looking forward to the crazy ride ahead of us!
I do remember reading way back in the 80's in some magazine (when Lucas was still thinking about doing 9 movies), that Lucas was going to film the ST right after the OT, as Han, Leia and Luke would still be young enough to be the leads. And I was SO hyped for another trilogy of them, and so bummed when I read in the mid 80's that Lucas was done with SW altogether. ( still remember a friend telling me in 8th grade History class in 1987 that he read an interview with Lucas and he said he was retired from SW.) His original plan also had him then filming the PT AFTER the ST, because it didn't matter of the timeframe on that trilogy since he would be using all new actors.
It would have been interesting if Lucas had decided to the do the ST in the mid 80's and then continued with the PT in the mid 90's?
I would say it doesn't happen. Sure you have the huge hype and love for the OT, which in turn made it nearly impossible for the PT to live to. I think the ST has the opposite effect. with all the backlash the PT got, the ST will top it with a little more ease. it won't matter that its not as magical as the OT, it will be better than the PT, and thats all people will care about.
Let's face it, most of the fans were expecting Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and all of the OT gang in TPM. Also, most of the PT criticism came on Lucas' scripts, directing and weak characters. Now we'll get Ep 7 with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and im 100% sure that most of the positive critics will be only because of the OT trilogy's gang is returning. I mean, with another screenwriter and J. J. this trilogy cannot fail.
I am expecting really ''objective'' reviews saying the trilogy's good, certainly better than the PT, but not better of the OT.
On the other hand, I'll express my hopes that this trilogy will certainly surpass the OT and make something good with iconic characters, but about the PT... I'm not sure.
I may be exaggerating, but, remember, it's only my opinion.
The PT showed the galaxy before it started its slide into chaos. The OT showed the galaxy a destroyed and ruined place. As much as I love the PT I could only really get behind Qui-Gon as my favorite character. The others had moments of brilliance but could only get behind him. The OT showed us the Outer Rim, Smugglers, Bounty Hunters more so than the PT. Han and Leia were snarky and I liked that. The characters of the PT for the most part were respectful and that was kind of boring. I hope the ST stays closer to a fractured galaxy and not the complete galaxy of the PT. Save that for the 10-12 trilogy.
Quick comment about the OP about expectations due to the OT and EU respectively.
I don't think those two can really be compared in their effect on the audience simply due to numbers.
Of all that saw the PT, a large majority had seen the OT.
Of all those that will (probably) see the ST, a large majority have NOT read any post RotJ-EU.
The OT are one of the most seen films of all time. The SW EU is quite big but nowhere near that big.
If the only people that dislike the ST are those that are big fans of post-RotJ EU then I would say the ST will be VERY well liked indeed.
So with the ST, the big difference will be that most people won't know how the story will turn out. With the PT, most did know that Anakin would turn, the republic would fall and so on even though they didn't know the details of it.
And this about expectations and nostalgia. Nostalgia is a two edged sword. You can have the "You only dislike it because it is different from how you remembered it." But can also have the opposite "You only like because it is about X even though it sucks."
But trying to explain away why some liked/didn't like something due to this doesn't get the discussion anywhere. People can like/dislike something for valid reasons. So lets discuss what people like/dislike instead of trying to put people in boxes with labels on them.
Lastly, about expectations. There are examples where films have had quite big expectations and managed to meet them.
The first Spiderman film was quite anticipated by many of the Spiderman fans I know and many of them were happy, even more so with Spiderman 2. I really liked Batman Begins but the Dark Knight exceeded my expectations.
The LOTR-films had quite big expectations and for many, they were met.
Bye for now.
What ever the case, it's going to be real hard for the ST to shine brighter than what came before it. Ideas are running dry in Holywood; just look at recent films and you'll know what I mean. Franchises are dying all over, if you ask me; and if Star Wars becomes this movie of the year thing, you can bet it will die, too.
Everyone always has their own ideas of how something should be, but in the end if something is good it doesn't matter and will mostly be accepted.
I would have preferred various aspects of the PT were done differently, but I'm not the creator. The story should be done the way the creator wants it done, no-one else has a say.
My issue with the PT is not that it didn't so things the way I wanted, it's that as movies they could have been made much better than they were.
There is little to suggest the ST will be poorly made, but it will disappoint many who think it should be done a certain way (especially EU fans who seem to want copies of the books).
A lot of people bash adaptations of books or TV shows and so on for not being the same as the source material, I don't really care so long as they are done well (like the LOTR movies or Harry Potter). People need to learn to judge things on their own merit rather than on their own expectations.
So "Drush"... you seem to have a rather passive aggressive thing going on in your post there. Nice try. But to answer your question, yes, the prequels utterly failed when viewed objectively. No way around it, bro. Sorry If you feel different. Your standards are exceedingly low if those films were acceptable. As many have stated before, they fail in every conceivable aspect of flim-making (with the one exception of score - thanks to the godly john Williams). If anything, it is actually UNDERSTATED how terrible the films are. From the casting, to the performances, to the cinematography... to the overused and poor cgi, lack of practical effects, sets, location shooting, etc. and most importantly the godawful writing. Plot holes, reliance on contrivancies, convoluted poorly thought out plot, terrible character development and even worse dialogue. Good heavens. They make the Matrix sequels look like Gone With the Wind.
In conclusion, the prequels were abysmal. Watching people still defend them, to this day, still gets my blood pressure up.
No. You absolutely can't. That's why you won't. Because you CAN'T. If you try, prepare to be teased. I've seen a few brave souls attempt it and it's freakin' hilarious. They demonstrate how little they know about film in general when they do. So be my guest, man. Seriously. But no matter how much hardcore rationalizing you do (and believe you me bud, you're settin' records here lol), the OT will always be superior to the PT, whether you or I exist. This ain't about "opinions", as much as you'd like to think it is. A deeper appreciation and respect for the art form will show you that there are certain objective qualities within the domain of cinema (as there are in every other form of art). If you disagree with this statement than...... well, you are wrong. Such a silly statement like THIS could result if that philosophy (that film, and all art for that matter is completely subjective and all opinions are equally valid) is taken literally:
"Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is a better film than Lawrence of Arabia".
If there is no objectivity in film than this is a valid sentence/"opinion". If that doesn't bother you, or send you in to cardiac arrest upon hearing that, then I guess there's just no hope for you. Continue to live in fantasy land where all opinions are completely equal, and everything is even-steven, and nobody is more well informed, or insightful, or objective than anybody else. Weeeeeeeeee, happy thoughts!
Ugh... what a simplistic, naïve, unobjective mentality that is. That's actually "Cult Mentality". Kinda scary when viewed from the other side.... So look, it's not ALL Star wars, and everything is equal. It would be just as ludicrous to say that I am a Terminator fan. None of the Terminator films are any better than the others. I like the original, the sequel, T3 and Salvation all the same! And of course you know how ridiculous that sounds. C'mon man. You could do the same for the Alien saga, or Predator, or the Matrix, X-Men, Spiderman, etc. That just doesn't make any sense. Judge each film on their own, OBJECTIVELY (god, I love using this word, don't I?) But It applies. That's what it all comes down to. Because I love Star Wars, I recognize it's both the good and the bad. That's a rational view to take. I think that demonstrates a deeper affection for the saga than just "loving everything equally". That just makes absolutely no sense to me. What a bizarre mentality. Oh well. I hope my comparison to other film series' maybe causes you to realize how silly that mentality is.
Let me know : )
And we're done here. Warnings came out before and things were OK for a while, but this thread has gone off the edge again.
@King_Crimson : a reminder to you to please play nice in other threads here.