Saga The story versus the story telling...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthPoppy, Dec 22, 2010.

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  1. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

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    Sorry. I meant "nadir", i.e. low point, opposite of zenith.
  2. halibut Ex-Mod and 2015 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Ahh, I see. In which case you are wrong. ROTJ is the zenith :p
  3. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    I love the scene where Luke turns himself over to Vader. I love that scene so much I would marry it.
  4. halibut Ex-Mod and 2015 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    So so much I love about that film. But it is "my" film, as in it's the one that I first truly appreciated when growing up. The first I saw in the cinema, and I was at that age where I could understand what was going on. So many good memories about it, and I would fight to the death to defend how great it is.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    I also love Luke choking the Gamorreans. That's my favorite non-dialogue scene in the film.
  6. EHT New Films Manager

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    ROTJ is so good that it actually remains good even though it subjects us to too much time spent at Jabba's palace and to severe levels of ewok overdose. :p
  7. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

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    Absolutely right.
    Without the Ewoks - I don't mind Jabba's palace part except for the monster factory syndrome - ROTJ would stand close to ANH and ESB.

    Concerning "story versus story telling", largely agree with DarthP. the PT story is indeed more interesting, complex and adult, and I was really anxious and excited to see it on-screen before 1999, but the execution and the story telling was disappointing, and didn't live up to the expectations and the standards of the OT.
  8. MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight

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    Dude... That was the best of all the Indy movies!
  9. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling

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    Over the years I've come to think that the OT's greatness is partly the result of its limitations. What couldn't be put into it worked very much to its advantage. On the other hand, the PT is to a large extent mired by the embarrassment of rices at its maker's disposal.

    If the OT had been made in different circumstances and a different time I don't believe it would've been as simple a story and quite possibly the result would be that it would've been less well told.
  10. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

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    Totally agree.
    The CGI invasion and really too much of those artificial sceneries, landscapes and characters, combined with a much larger scale of event and shot complexity, is what undermines the PT compared to the OT emotionally speaking, regardless of the story itself and despite some good moments in there.
  11. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling

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    Embarrassment of rices. Who lets these people in here?!
  12. halibut Ex-Mod and 2015 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Happy to ban you if you want :)
  13. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Knight

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    I think there are a lot of things that set the Original Series apart from the Prequels, not just story telling.

    The effects were brand new at the point of the original Star Wars, far exceeding Buck Rogers. While the effects in the prequels are excellent, they are vastly over done. It was as if Lucas let his video game designers make the movie sets and props (example, the droids and wookie vehicles in Ep. III).

    The story line of both sets are great, but the prequels try to cover too much ground in too little time. The original movies were much more evenly paced.

    Also, the actors in the original series were much more adept at taking an awkward script and making it believable, some I think was lacking in the prequel cast. The script for both series was overflowing with cheesy one-liners and awkward dialogue, but Ford/Fisher/Hamil could pull it off.
  14. Icebreaker Jedi Master

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    I watched AOTC the other day on Spike TV. First time in probably 3-4 years. And the one thing I kept coming back to was the acting. McDiarmid and Lee are the best actors in the prequels by far (IMO). McDiarmid in particular had some of the most atrocious lines imaginable, yet he pulls it off so incredibly well. Some of the worst written lines that he has are actually delivered the best. It just seems to me that McDiarmid was the only one that got the memo about the dialogue being B movie material and to just go with it. No coincidence that he was apart of the original trilogy cast that just seemed to work better with what they were given. Upon further viewings of the original trilogy I actually came to appreciate Mark Hamil's performances the most. I actually think that guy is a pretty darn good actor.
  15. FalorWindrider Jedi Knight

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    Another reason why McDiarmid is well-liked as Palpatine is that, despite the character's montrosity, Palpatine comes off as fairly affable. The Jedi lack all charisma. Yoda is spitting out grammatically incorrect parables, Mace Windu is spitting out grammatically correct parables, Obi-Wan lets out a smirk once in a while and lets out a heavily vitriolic quip towards Anakin, but he ends up sounding pissed off most of the time, and Padme drifts between acting like a high schooler with a crush and a princess classic. They all act dead serious, all the time, and in less formal situations, Padme and Anakin either ham it up with the romance dialogue or act like they're just reading lines. Even in TPM, the light-hearted story of the PT, you don't see a single one of these characters laughing. At all. Except Palpatine.

    Contrast this with the ending to ANH, with a throng of people cheering an overjoyed Luke, Leia hugging him while laughing warmly, and Han joining them. There was a lot of humanness to just that one scene that made it seem like we were watching actual people. It makes them likable and it makes the viewer care about their story. That doesn't mean that characters have to be laughing maniacs, but giving them depth of emotion is just as important as lines. That's how the OT cast manages to pull off awkward B-movie dialogue and make it work.
  16. StampidHD280pro Jedi Master

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    Exaggerations and lies. Anakin, Padme, Kitster, Wald, Boss Nass, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon are always making witty remarks, and or laughing in TPM.

    In the PT, Yoda and Mace are the most serious. Anakin and Padme make awkward jokes, giggle, laugh out loud, roll around on the grass and smile ear to ear around each other in AOTC, even making jokes in the Geonosian Arena, engaging in the first galactic war in 1000 years or whatever. Do you forget Dex's diner because it wasn't humorous enough for you? Or because you don't like it? If so, why not? I'm dying to know. Come up with three reasons. Better yet, come up with five. I'll be very impressed.[face_tired]

    And Palpatine, affable? Laughable.
  17. FalorWindrider Jedi Knight

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    Yes, Obi-Wan makes a witticism and then smiles. Qui-Gon smirks a few times, but never actually laughs, and he never actually makes a joke. Obi-Wan is there to snark at what he says, or as usual, express dismay like a frustrated housewife. Boss Nass is played by Brian Blessed. It is divine law that he be a ridiculously large ham in every role. But Boss Nass sounds more like a retarded ethnic caricature than a true character. Anakin's role in TPM is pretty minor, and half the time, he's just screaming mind-blowing stupid lines like "IT'S WORKING! IT'S WORKKKKKKINGGGGGGG!"

    It's all snark. All of it. Even with they tell jokes, they tell them with an absolute straight face, and whoever is at the butt of the joke responds with a wan smile. Or Anakin, with those absolutely creepy little smirks Anakin throws at Padme when her back's turned and he just told her how badly he wants to bone her. With his eyes. Because it makes her uncomfortable. :D

    When Lucas attempts to have a character with a more gregarious sense of humor, he puts in an idiot like Jar Jar, or a slob like Dex. Honestly? The best he could find was these two? The most embarrassing character in all modern cinema and a fat slovenly ******* who just gives Obi-Wan some info in one scene? Funny.

    As for smiling ear to ear. Anyone can do that. It doesn't mean it looks genuine. Laughter puts a lot more emotion into the scene, as seen with ANH. These wan smiles have the same effect as Anakin's constant pouting in Episode III. They signify anger and sadness, but superficially.

    As for Palpatine being affable. He would be, if you didn't have meta knowledge that he was a Sith Lord. Honestly, who would you rather talk to? Palpatine or some creepy ******* in a robe who is constantly frowning?
  18. DRush76 Jedi Master

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    Over the years I've come to think that the OT's greatness is partly the result of its limitations. What couldn't be put into it worked very much to its advantage. On the other hand, the PT is to a large extent mired by the embarrassment of rices at its maker's disposal.

    If the OT had been made in different circumstances and a different time I don't believe it would've been as simple a story and quite possibly the result would be that it would've been less well told.




    I disagree, but I'm sure that most of the people on this forum would agree with you.
    After all, we're in the age of PT bashing, are we not?:rolleyes:


    I don't consider the OT to be an example of better story telling. Just more simple and less ambiguous. And probably a little less mature.
  19. StampidHD280pro Jedi Master

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    The PT has limitations too. They don't have to be the reasons I like them, but they make the films what they are.
  20. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Knight

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    I agree with that. Lee and McDiarmid did very good jobs. But as you noted McDiarmid was a part of the original cast, and Lee is just a good actor in all the movies I've seen him in. Also Ewan McGregor did a decent job in these movies portraying Obi-Wan, I think. But there was still something missing. I believe that in the prequel, the three main actors could pull off one or two aspects of their characters, but not the character as a whole. For instance Christenson could portray someone enraged, but had trouble with some other emotions. And I don't think he got much help from Portman as far as dialogue.
  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

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    Jul 20, 2005
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    I think you mean "platitudes", not "parables". Palpatine should seem more likeable and affable on certain levels. He has his finger on the pulse of human desire and human weakness. He knows how to ingratiate himself and play people.

    "A heavily vitriolic quip"? When? I can't think of a single instance -- and you're acting like the character of Obi-Wan is doing it frequently. At times, Obi-Wan chides Anakin and shows a disturbing ignorance as to what his apprentice is going through, but I wouldn't say any of his quips are laced with animosity or vitriol (quite the opposite: when Obi-Wan actually quips, he tends to do so with a level of self-deprecation).

    Er, OK. We geddit. Natalie Portman is young and looks young. Let me also add slim. Natalie Portman is young and slim and looks young and slim. And her character likes Anakin. That must mean she's "a high schooler with a crush". Oh, and Padme is also royal with fancy costumes *and* she's the mother of Leia. So that must mean she's "a princess classic" (whatever that actually means).

    There isn't the classic banter of the OT. The PT is not the OT. And the OT is not the PT. They're not even trying to be the same thing. Obviously, "act like they're just reading lines" is thin code for "bad actors doing bad acting". Well, whatever. I disagree. And "hamming it up"? Really? Some of the dialogue may be written "to the hilt", but the actors generally take it rather seriously; indeed, that has often been cited as a detriment to the film (not by me).

    The laughing is few and far between, but how often do you see characters laughing -- not smiling or grinning, but fall-on laughing -- in the OT? They're not psychotic. They're not on drugs. It isn't "Power Rangers". Even Palpatine doesn't outright laugh in any part of TPM. Show me where he does, please. I get where you're coming from, but the way you've phrased things ... you're just talking nonsense. What you're saying doesn't jive with TPM or any of the other five Star Wars films.

    Like all art and all life, there's more than one way to read that scene, and those ways aren't (necessarily) mutually exclusive. Yes, I agree that the execution of that scene, in its emotive broadness, makes it seem like we're watching real people. That is key to its power. On the other hand, just as often, people don't emote broadly. This is where the scene can be read as clunky (deliberately so, in my opinion). There's a falsity being sold alongside an authenticity. The ending to TPM is, in some ways, more subtle, with more careful showing of (happy/ecstatic) emotion. Further, it seems to function as
  22. DRush76 Jedi Master

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    The PT has limitations too. They don't have to be the reasons I like them, but they make the films what they are.


    Of course the PT has its limitations. But people rarely discuss them. Instead, they seem to project the view that the OT was near perfect.
  23. drg4 Jedi Master

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    Jul 30, 2005
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    That reminds me: Does everyone remember that pearly mouth Padme flashes at little Anakin during the parade? Is that not one of the most gosh-darn adorable things you've ever seen? An angel, indeed. O:) Why, it's right up there with the sexy little smile she displays at the end of the balcony scene in ROTS. (You know... ?But it's probably true.?) =P~

    I-)

    Uh...oh yeah...Carrie Fisher's swell, too. Kinda.
  24. Cryogenic Force Ghost

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    Jul 20, 2005
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    Well, she certainly makes me swell ... with pride.

    Werr, what?

    Uh, everything's under control. Situation normal.

    * * *

    I'm glad you made that statement about the TPM scene and Padme's "pearly "mouth".

    See, Falor may be right that ANYONE (well, the majority of people, all things being equal) can pull off an ear-to-ear smile, but only Natalie Portman can make it look so gosh-darn sexy.
  25. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight

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    You mean when she was 16 or 17, playing a 13-year old character?

    [image=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_P1YChrwWvOs/TQtUimlMvGI/AAAAAAAADJ4/G0oFnR0uQ3s/s1600/chris-hansen.jpg]

    :p
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